Feedback on the Mainland

You are advocating the following. If I am harassed in the public library, I have the option not to go there again... so I dont go. If I am harassed at the local supermarket...I have the option to simply not go there again... Following this to its logical conclusion... if I am harassed then at home... where do I go? Move home? No, I report and expect some action which I know wont happen. So it will be more difficult to pursue an action based in SL or any other internet chat site. Yet, irrespective of all this, there needs to be some law governing it, like everything else. I want to have the ability to seek redress for harm or whatever....and I am sure many people do. To say simply log out is too simplistic an answer. And since you been using an online environment for so long, I think you have more understanding on this than most.

Unfortunately there are two schools of thought... those who follow the "freedom of speech" and those who want some form of statutory control. The main issue with the freedom of speech.. when does it stop being freedom of speech and become harassment? People should not be permitted in any environment to do whatever they wouldst... that is anarchy.

RL should and at some point will apply. There are moves a foot to make it so.

About the copyright - There is NO such thing as international copyright (irrespective of the treaties and conventions signed, as they do not make copyright international). That is true in most states that I am aware of... and a state means a sovereign jurisdiction. Please see http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ38a.pdf It clearly states there is no International Copyright.

I wonder about this , I have a weapon that blinds my opponent by putting a phantom prim in front of the camera, not something I have studied, but there may be something there for the more advanced scripters to think on

I may be wrong... and I am open to correction... but it seems that initially it was deemed taht copybot was not feasible till it was done.

To my knowledge, LL doesn't put abandoned 16-240sqm plots up for public sale. They are only sold by request to adjacent landowners following the rules here.

As such, bots are not involved with microparcels, to my knowledge.

I understand the need for privacy; I also know: That when someone can pan a camera across one, or more sims there is "no real privacy". That can be mainland or estate.

Personally we have taken the high road; and our policy is: That ppl should mind their own business, and be adults. If they can't do that: They are then; asked to leave, and banned from the entire estate.

The solution for the mainland; Insist that the user base be adults, LL needs to follow threw and rid the grid of the jerks. I really hate how we have to go out of our way; For the jerks hellbent on ruining everyone else's experience.

We are all suppose to be adults here.

Take the high road LL. Protect your good clients; ban your lousy ones. Yes is it that simple;

*Trin

You have done a wonderful job there. I am glad to have helped you in a small way.

Again, yet another example of how some things are better managed by residents themselves.

My only exception to residents doing this, is paying off the extortionists. I am not in favor of feeding the beast to make it go away, only to terrorize others elsewhere. I'd rather slay it.

Sadly, by doing the right thing in the battle, it's far too easy to do the wrong thing in the war.

In most parts of the real world, it's illegal to feed the wildlife. It only causes problems later.

Oh yes. the Gov does sell land on the open market. This was supposed to be the alternative to public land < 512. Alot of the plots are either mis-shapen or otherwise orphaned from adjoining plots, for whatever reason.

You never see it for sale, because it's on the market for less than a second.

Alot of land is resold this way. Ask any bot runner.

This is a non-sequitur. Just because my RL existence may be posting words in a forum does not automatically confer reality to those words. If I say I just went next door and kicked my neighbor's dog, it does not confer the reality of me doing it. It is merely an expression of reality, not reality itself. Hence, "it is not the real world".



The only way to deny people reality is to kill them. Not remotely applicable here.



No, people CHOOSE to get hurt in an online environment. BIG difference. I know and am fully cognizant of the FACT that NO ONE could POSSIBLY "hurt" me in any online world via direct action. In the case of SL, Copyright infringement notwithstanding. The worst someone could do is to publicly post sensitive RL information about me, but then that is not virtual anymore, that has become real, because it has become about the "Real Me", not the "Virtual Me".

People cannot be hurt here. They can hurt themselves, sure. They can TAKE offense, but that is a voluntary posture.

Why do people forget even the simplest rules of life? "Sticks and stones... words can never hurt me." There are no sticks and stones in SL.



I disagree. There is no legal "guarantee of happiness" anywhere. Even the Constitution only protects the PURSUIT of happiness. If unhappiness caused by another becomes grounds for a tort suit, god help us all.

In the end, there is no legal or statutory "freedom from being offended".



The ToS and LL's enforcement are more than enough to deal with groups like the ------- Names removed by Katt Linden -------------
effectively for the residents. In their case, they are in violation of a different body of law, where LL is the victim, and LL can and should have them prosecuted for it.

I actually enjoy dealing with the ------- Names removed by Katt Linden -------------
. They bring me lots of lulz.



Realistic response to the ------- Names removed by Katt Linden -------------
? Ignore them. Ban them. Make fun of them. Twist their tiny little juvenile minds into intricate pretzels and send them on their way. When they get bored, or realize that you are getting more lulz out of them than they are getting out of you, they get bored and leave. Basically, when you mature enough to where nothing they do gets a rise out of you, you cease to feed their infantile hunger for attention and they dry up and blow away. I actually think they (and other griefers) have a place in online worlds, because they help teach and reinforce this concept in others. They certainly cannot hurt anyone realistically.

I have a few of the cheap 16's and for a short while put them on sale so they showed in the Land list with an anti adfarm slogan on them, to get the advert at the top of the list I put some at cheap prices, this meant that the texture fed down through a lot of the other parcels listed up for sale.
The problem I found was the bots still came in and bought them almost instantly so it proved to be a bit of a silly idea, LOL
Then I put the prices up so the bots wouldn' t buy them, so the adfarmers reported me for adfarming which earned me an instant suspension from LL another silly idea but my mistake.

The reason I share this is it does show bots buy small 16's anything infact that is listed very cheaply, probably LL listed plots to!

*We are concerned about these issues, and we're listening. I hope you can see that as a positive step.

Thank you!
-- Katt Linden*

Well .. i appreaciate that you are concerned about these issues, but shouldnt you have before ? Why is it that LLC suddenly "involves" us residents by asking for feedback ? Many of us have been given that for a long long time. What happened to that feedback ? Isnt it strange that feedback has to come from those who pay you ? Not to mention a solution ? (off topic : do we residents get some discount on our billings this month since we are so helpful by giving feedback ? ). It feels like i am paying for my own labour instead or getting a proper service.

I think LLC truly underestimates how the most of us feel. We are the ones who bring in $$ & creativity, while you allow others to steal that/spoil from/for us. Cause LLC didnt react on complaints properly in the past, you gave the extortioners the possibility to expand, as they did. Many residents left cause of those clowns while others started to team up and "defended" themselves : they shared information, improved them views together and did made several groups : they are pretty well organized !. Some representative members of those groups have been supplying LLC for a while now with as much info as possible but no action was taken. So do you think its strange people start loosing them faith in SL cause LLC only comes up with this forum ?

I once loved this game, believed in its opportunities and had plans to invest serious amounts ( $ & time). But why would i invest in a jungle of banlines and ad cubes ? Last months i do nothing else but blocking ads or improving my views, restoring land that is cut or have conversations with people whom land was stolen by a landbot. Your world your imagination ?? I ve seen many people leaving the game cause of these issues and the lack of LLCs reaction and more and more i feel like i have to join them.

I think LLC would have done better if they wwould had listened in the past, but then they were less "concerned" cause memberships were still increasing, auctions did get bids and mainland had normal rates.

You have got to act properly and quick cause promisses alone never have solved a problem.

Its good to see you place some postings Katt but they dont give me the impression LLC is taking us seriously. I would like to see more postings from LLC refering to this subject and not things like : "we are listening", "we are concerned". It would feel more like an open discussion...



Ad Farm Problem

[Unresolved]

LL does go to great lengths to allow neighboring residents to buy abandoned land. They tend to be very cautious to not sell anything prematurely without being certain the land is free from any strings. On very rare occasions, mistakes get made, but that's an exception, not the rule.

Sure, alot of land is fixable once the neighbors gain access to it.

My viewpoint is a global one however. Most of the bot runners I speak with and groups like the Arbor Project, are sitting on ALOT of land, which is wholly detatched from everything else. The checkerboards are the main problem, because alot of the land interspersed between them, is owned by others, making management near impossible. The only alternative for them, is contacting them, or abandonment. Then the cycle begins again and again and again.

Residents have the ability to contact neighbors, either to buy their land, or to offer their land for sale to them directly. The Governor doesn't enjoy this priviledge. The Governor must remain impartial, for obvious reasons. Right or wrong, the perception of favortism must not be allowed to happen.

Again, much of the solution relies upon sound policies from LL AND resident involvement.

RL venues are not and should not be held to the same legal standards as virtual venues. In RL venues, your options are more limited, and there is a factor of safety as well as RL value in the participation in such venues. In SL, these concerns are either nonexistent or not as stringent.

The Library is a REAL public place, you are REALLY there, and laws against actions in RL should be enforced. SL is an imaginary place, you AREN'T REALLY there, so those laws have no hold, nor should they. The standards for the two venues are different, and applying legal standards that work for one to the other is absurd and dangerous.



I stringently disagree. There needs to be no law, or at least no law which even REMOTELY works like the ones for RL, used in virtual worlds. It is excessive and quite unnecessary.

It IS a simple answer, that's the point. Simple answers work the best. There's nothing "too" about it. SL is not a necessity, it is a luxury, and it shouldn't be treated like a necessity. It's like TV, or video games. If you are bothered by something you see on television, you TURN IT OFF. You don't go down to the courthouse and file suit against the broadcasting company. I don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp.



When does it stop being freedom of speech and become harassment, actionable by law? When the victim cannot do anything within their own power to mitigate it, or suffers REAL harm from it.



Yeah, there are, and I am committed to fighting them every step of the way. People need to take responsibility for themselves, deal with their feelings, and get over their "Oh, I am so offended that I will sue"-happy crap that the US has become famous for. Gads, next, we will see the likes of Jack Thompson being canonized for Sainthood.



I am well aware of that fact, but that's not what you said, hence:



If I have a copyright on a creation I made, it most certain DOES apply internationally, since that is what the whole point of all those copyright treaties is all about; i.e., making it so that it DOES apply internationally.

So, while there is not one "International Copyright Law" (would have to have a world government first, which is a farce), the net effect of having a copyright that can be enforced internationally via concordant copyright laws and treaties is that there is international copyright protection for works. That's what the clause "Copyright 2008, by me. All rights reserved worldwide." means, ya know.

You can't block the camera without the person granting camera permissions to your script.

If you can, then it is a bug/exploit, and needs to be fixed ASAP.

Still, I can make a viewer which nukes your prim to me, and have it still let me cam in and see anything the server tells me is there.

There's a large difference between "feasible" and "possible". Copybot has always been possible, really, for almost the exact same reasons that "privacy" is IMpossible.

With the exception of modifying the simulator to simply not send data from a "privatized" parcel (a VERY significant modification, to be sure), there is simply NO way to enforce it technologically.

Remember, the Viewer is and has always been in the hands of the infidels.

I'd *gladly* take a "tour of duty" for someting like this.

Mari

This is horribly off-topic, but just yesterday /327/db/275366/1.html came up, suggesting some such exploit may indeed be in use for griefing. (But it would be such a silly exploit for anybody to bother with that I'd pretty much have to see it to believe it.)

But what *any* of this has to do with the Mainland exclusively is lost on me.

It's a segue far afield from the topic, like the debate Baerin and I are having.

Mainland Issues -> Banline abuse -> Privacy debate -> Solution for total privacy -> Weird offshoot of a solution to enforce total privacy.

i love this part Weedy, so will repeat it.



Come on LL what is your solution where are these sound policies?

Second Life, as has been recently pointed out to me, is about freedom. The problem with that, however, is, that freedom is never free. Freedom always comes at the expense of others, because we don't exist in some individual void, and all our actions draw consequences.

Thus, a free people could only exist in the capitalist system, where expenses find their monetary counterpart. The amount of freedom I take from others will be compensated with money, from which those others can buy some freedom for themselves, in turn. It's a system of checks and balances, where people give up part of their freedom to have the means to gain their freedom in another area for themselves.

This freedom for the people is very new in terms of history, for previous eras knew only slaves and masters, with the slaves being the majority. It may seem possible to us to be able to return to those earlier stages, if only partially, yet in truth, we can't. We can't find the way back to those times anymore, so we're stranded in the future. And that future is a future of balanced freedom. The only possible way to exist in this future is to provide as much freedom as possible and just control the market upon which it will be exchanged.

Second Life is part of this future; in fact, for now it is the only place, where this future exists. Similar concepts so far have all the same drawback: They restrict the people in what they can do; they don't provide freedom to everyone; they restrict peoples right to use their platform to the limited uses their creators see fit. There is no way to limit the freedom of the residents of SL if you don't want it to turn into yet another 3D-Disneyland like Google's 'Lively'.

Freedom in SL is the freedom to create. Owning land is your expense to display your creations. That way it works very similar to the web, where server space is your expense to display your site. The difference, however, is that here, your site is not alone anymore. And if your neighbour is an adfarmer, for example, then they can place their advertisements on your site just by proximity. And here is where the expenses don't match the freedom taken.

Adlands are 16sqm parcels, usually bought very cheap and the tier for these is as low as it can be. On the other hand, if you want a sim free of adfarms, guaranteed and forever, you'd have to buy yourself a private island. There is simply no relation between these expenses. What is missing here is compensation for those impaired by the advertisements. I think, it's no viable solution to prohibit advertisement on the mainland. This would be a step back into a pre-capitalist era. However, there should be a way for neighbours to enforce compensation upon advertisers, the same way as public advertisements are paid in RL.

The new mainland would then be an administered place, not a gouverned one. It would be a place where freedom is eventually a measurable expense again. Only that will bring justice, and justice is the only thing that is free for all.

Just checked...I own the whole sim...65536 sqm according the sl web site says I own and last I checked the prim amount for the land was 15,000.

Is it inside your business and 1x1x1? It's not an ad. Are they flying over your business and 5x5x5? Those are ads. Are you selling the things in the box at your store? Not ads. Selling a club on a different? Those are ads.

Linden roads are not "shoved right through the middle of plots". Land for Linden roads is reserved before mainland sims are ever auctioned. If someone chooses to buy land on both sides of a Linden road, that's their business.

That would be an awful thing. 1) LL made a promise to those charter members. It is only right that they keep it. 2) Many charter members put their tier into groups involved in education and maintaining park areas. Pulling their tier would badly impact those groups (and no--NCI does not have any charter member tier).

Jack, when is the SLurl.com going to be fixed to reflect current maps?! This has been an issue on the JIRA for a year now and most of all these wonderful new continents that you made show as "No SL Data Available." It's pure bush league to not update or leave the SLurl in a broken condition for such a long time, and doesn't give much confidence that you folks really care about the mainland.

See http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-87 and
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-510 and
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-420

The person you bought the land from probably did not intend to lie to you. For nearly two years, LL built no roads on land that it set aside for them. She may have honestly thought they never would. It was only after some considerable pressure by residents--myself included--and after LL apparently realized their mainland estate was looking pretty bad compared to islands, that LL started the "Department of Public Works" and began finishing the roads (among other improvements).



It has been my experience that--in the absence of ad farms--a Linden road tends to increase land value. Bordering any sort of Linden Protected Land, normally makes your land more valuable. If the road does not border your land, then it will have little effect on value.



Adfarms are not a result of Linden roads; adfarms are the result of LL not acting over a period of two and a half years, as the mainland degenerated. There are plenty of adfarms not along roads. Ad cutters regularly split up square lots in the center of sims, when there is no road handy.



I enjoy them. Even though I don't usually use vehicles, they are great paths for flying. I've got a road running right by my castle in Kuula. I think the presence of Linden roads, waterways, train tracks, etc. helps lend a sense of place and reality to this virtual world.