Feedback on the Mainland

As long as the technology doesn't suport sending different streams to several avatars the only way to solve this is to cut the land into 16m3 sizes. It's simply needed.
I hope LL will not lay restrictions on size before solving this technical problem

Um, no, copybot was more like a combination of a handful of tools that were already well known and in common use at the time. Nobody with an informed technical opinion would have said "this is impossible", they would have said "well, of course, you can't protect digital content". If you don't believe me, how about Steve Jobs?

Maybe I should stat to cut up my land and everyone else to, I bought it to have fun, now all I have is mess small plots more expensive than my plot, big pictures in the sky shining down on my home, yes now perhaps is time to be radical to cut my land and sell it, it will be worth much more as now not worth anything. Show Lindens how much fun is cutting up land. I ask them to stop but nothing ever happens.

Well, they can use streaming media to get your IP address, crosscheck that with other places that's recorded, and figure out who you are in RL, and post sensitive information like your addiction to watching "Otters Holding Hands" and "Fox on a Trampoline". o_O;;;

Maybe you are right eventually when the mainland becomes nothing but 1000000000's of 16sqm plots set for sale at silly prices with land bots flying all over them looking for one that is less than 1000L$, they might start to think, OH perhaps we should ban Adfarming properly.

But please don't start to cut up and make more mess, even if Linden Labs don't seem to care some of us do and will do anything, we can to help you.

Maybe this time they will listen

I know it is frustrating believe me sometimes I feel the same but this thread shows they are beginning to listen to us.

They're all out in the open (enclosed buildings in SL are silly) about half of them "nailed up" on a picket fence, and sized from about <1,2,0.1> to <6,4,0.1>. Some of them are owned by other members of the group. Another group member has a couple of wooden board sale boxes on a telephone pole by the side of the road a few hundred feet down the road. In the other store (on the eastern continent) the boxes are on a wooden platform across the road from a 20 meter tall trash pile and burned out house that a group of SL Hobos use for their mall.

I am not pro land cutting but somehow this makes sense. A lot of us hold a bunch of mainland property worth 4.0 L$/m2. Mainland has devaluated, we ve lost but hey, we also earn them inworld, it was a bitter pill but, even virtual life goes on.

However, when you decide to become nasty and go cut out all your land, using some ad farming strategies and set it for sale at 20.0 L$, which is pretty low compared to the rest of the extortioning land cutters and ad farmers, you can sell it too. As long as you stay within the TOS you dont do anything wrong.

One of my groups nearly owns 400k m2 of mainland property, worth around L$ 1.600.000. Not bad, if it would sell .. Now when i would cut it into 16m2s i easily could make around L$ 8.000.000 !!! ... Are you watching LLC ? Stop making 16m2 lucrative ..

I ve no intention to cut, neither i would encourage others to do that.. Its just to show that cutting land somehow rewards if you have bad intentions ... and that is pretty odd !

HEY!! You weren't supposed to let that out. :-/

/me crosses Argent off his Santa Dragon list.

This keeps on coming up



You must be aware now your users have had enough of inaction.

Now is the time to unveil your strategy in combating the destruction of the mainland!
Just hope it will have been worth the 2 and a 1/2 year wait LMAO

Glad I haven't had to wait so long, You users who have sorry for laughing but I can't help it.
You see I haven't seen a company piss everything down the drain since British Leyland, gave up making cars! LoL

This is the problem obviously in the warped minds of the fair Linden Labs executives.
Then if you have an idea that is dishonest and downright immoral in every respect, then that is fair play as its your idea.
You thought of it in a free world and so should be able to cheat and steal unhindered, because if Linden Labs were to intervene that would be unfair it would take away your rights to carry on extorting real life money from the other inhabitants of the world.

It would never do if you could no longer prey upon any new people who come and buy a small plot of virtual land.

Come on people we have to be fair, think about these poor 16sqm extortion plot owners they have spent their hard earned Lindens on thousands of small plots, with the intention of making a great deal of money out of you.
Now it would be so unfair to disappoint them don't you think!

Sorry for being flippant Jack but LL make me so angry while you allow this practice to go on.

I mentioned many people would be prepared to help solve this problem if Linden Labs were open to the idea and others have also said yes they would love to help, by now you must see that over 900 posts on this subject shows a great deal of anger and frustration.

An awful lot of it aimed directly at Linden Labs for sitting by and allowing downright dishonest activity to carry on under their noses.

This activity is the reason the mainland is undesirable for a lot of your users.

Esther says again for the I don't know how many th' time as she smashes her head against the monitor screen, just hoping someone at Linden Labs is listening.

We live in hope.

But I have to admit, my patience is running out. Today, in this thread, I received the first warning from a Moderator ever, in over 3700 posts here. Yesterday, in Jack's office hour, I too threatened to just start buying cheap Mainland cutting it and selling it, one 4x4 at a time, to the fastest bot. For very little real money, one could destroy the Mainland quite completely at these prices--and the prices will keep dropping further as the chopping progresses (something U.H. taught us, always dicing the border of the next sim to be auctioned). The good thing about it is that it would wipe-out the extortion business, because there'd be effectively no Mainland market left, all sane residents fleeing the horror show.

But you know what? Doing that is really not necessary. It's already happening, as the current landcutters respond to unregulated "market forces"--otherwise known as "moral hazard." All we need is another couple months of LL doing nothing about the extortion problem--running the Mainland as some experiment in ultra-Libertarian governance instead of running a business--and there really will be nothing left to save.

I actually did read most of this thread (woo!)

I have had my store on mainland in Knot sim for over almost 2 year now. I started out renting land on a commercially zoned island in 2005 ~ and that was a treat for a beginning business owner!

If Hiro Queso (my Hero!) had not had to sell his sims due to the island tier hike back then, I would still be there.

My experiences with owning land and running a business on the mainland have been varied.

I think what hurt the most is having to take prims out of my allotment (that I pay for every month) to build extra walls and panorama etc to block out spinning, smoking, blinking, neon "ads" and banlines.

What we can do as mainland land owners is not feed into the wheel of extortion. If you do not buy, they cannot multiply ~ as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, you are feeding a relentless machine.

Until/If/When Jack and his team take ACTION on this problem ~ that is really the only thing we can do aside from AR.

I have myself gone a step further and inquired about buying those 16sqm chopped up plots. In one case my offer for them to consolidate the land back into its original 512, and price it according to market value ~ was taken up.

In all the other cases, I was ignored. There continues to be pockets of lag inducing unsightly extortion type areas sprinkled all over Knot sim aside from the ones right next door to my business.

There is also a very high billboard nearby too. I do not mind that so much as well, as I walk around my RL town I see some of the same things. As has been stated often in this thread, there is advertising and there is using "ads" to to extort people to buy.

My own experience has been that when I advertise my business 1)Classified In World Ads, 2) Forum Classifieds, 3) SL Social Networking Sites (like snapzilla, slprofiles etc) I get a very good return on my investment.

The one time I did have a billboard/signage type ad going on out there in on the SL landscape - it made no impact whatsoever.

As a consumer: (which we all are in one way or another) how many times have you been flying around SL, seen ad advertizement and used that to go find the item/service/store etc?

How many times have you utilized in world Search feature - classifieds, Places, Avatars Profile Picks, Forum Classifieds, third party websites to do the same?

For me, the balance tips on the latter and hardly for the former.

I feel as most do on this thread, the issue is not advertising per se, but extortion practices using ads that may or may not be legitimate.

it does make me feel a little reassured to see that Jack do not plan to leave us current mainland tier payers in the dust with these proposed changes.

I would like to see an end to the blight. I would also like to see Governor Linden land have a default auto-return. I am not sure if that has been implemented a lot, but when I first moved to Knot, the worst plots nearby were Linden owned land, due to people being able to rez and build whatever they wished and have it stick there forever.

Plant trees, put in a park benches whatever you want to do ~ but autoreturn is a must.

I am looking to expand my tier, and I will be keeping a very close eye on this issue.
and a note on 16sqm land sizes: That size is often used to install SLEX ATMs and things like that for businesses. So you can add that into the pot for legitimate use of that plot size.

Lastly, I look for more clarification on the "blocking view" issue. I think that I am allowed to keep my store theme intact without having to be forced to have my customers subjected to spinning, blinking etc prims from next door.

I was concerned when I read about how some people where punished for doing just that. I can understand the three wall thing (a little bit). I got in trouble (AR'd by the adfarmer) for doing that on the edge of my property when someone put up adfarm. So I blocked it on one instaid instead of three.

Even though I own the land on all three sides.

So what is the verdict on that? We do what we can on the mainland, and it would make things much easier if things were clearer on what is ok and not ok. I would much rather put my hard earned prims to better use than making high and long and panoramic walls/views - but until extortionists are gone from mainland ~ what is the "allowed" action?

~Amber

Personally I think it's all lip service. I also fully believe they already have their plan set in stone. It's their company, they can do with it what they will.

Question isn't "What will they do next?"; Question is; "How will I react to it."

*Trin

Alas I agree, when I see:

"We need to professionalize all aspects of advertising inworld. "

I fear the worst. The major issues are extortion and griefing, the ad farm policy largely dealt with ad farms, it just wasn't followed through.

The only reason I continue to post is in the inane hope Linden Labs will see all the responses that continue to come in and realize that inaction is the real reason behind their current problems.

Alas in my own mind I fear the worst to, its just I try to put a brave face on it.

As I watch them destroy what I came to actually love and care about.

Then again it is Linden Labs prerogative they created Second Life so if they wish to allow a few parasites to spoil the experience for the masses then so be it, I just feel it is a shame.

As it is impossible to read 900+ entries, I will simply make a few general points.

1) Resist the temptation to micromanage the existing mainland - 18 months too late. Don't make the 'Australian Error' of introducing 'regulatory rabbits'.

2) Be intelligent with your new land strategy. It makes no sense, for example, to create a PG sim next to a Mature one. Therefore, make smaller continents with uniform ratings - a 'Disney' continent separated from a 'Vegas' continent.

3) Develop a clear and simple program of land creation. Don't dump 300,000 refrigerators on the metro Boston market in the space of two days. (Even kids with lemonade stands don't set out 100 glasses of lemonade under the hot sun.)

4) Set autoreturn to 1 (one minute) on all non-sandbox Linden land. Get rid of surplus roads. Nothing ruins a sim like an ugly highway.

Like many issues both in real life and second life, the vast majority of the problems discussed here are a direct result of one problem. I speak of the dreaded "There's nobody There" problem. Everyone is paying tier fees and many do so in hopes that their land will at least pay for itself. So they start with listing in search, then try classifieds. In the case of malls, you need tremendous traffic to keep your tenants renting long term. So you try ads on slexchange, forum posts, etc. In short you try everything you can and work very hard and when that doesn't work,....well. Some of us, get mad and start trying some more underhanded tactics.
Camping is one, but it's a waste of money and puts the land owner further in the hole in most cases. Bots are a good solution for raising traffic, but are frowned upon by many for some reason. If you own a sim that you paid over $1000 bucks for and $195 a month, do you not have the right to park some bots on your land? I mean most of them are there by means of a viewer that doesn't handle graphics so the drain on the sim is lower than some scripted items! Still alot of people don't dig these types of bots, even when they are used to model clothing and things of that nature. Are some of these people campers,....hmmmm probably!
Until there's an easier sort of merit based search, and tools that can be used to maintain a presence of real people on any given sim, these type of tactics will evolve faster than any set of rules can keep up with, and may result in LL employing heavy handed tactics to put a stranglehold on this blight.
I remember way back when the internet was new, I saw an interview with Peter Gabriel. He was saying that the trouble with the internet is that anyone can have a web page. Everyone will spend their time monkeying around with their own site and there will be nobody left available to look at your site. This is EXACTLY the problem with second life.
People hang out in groups of friends that are simply too small to have any impact on an area other than their own! Only the few specialized markets such as hair, skin, and animations see any real sustained "actual traffic" without giving away money or free items.
What the answer? I propose that LL adopt a land income tax rather than a tier fee. There would be a base price, and then above that you would pay a percentage of the income made as a direct result of the land you own. This would encompass transactions taking place on your land only.
Once people can stop worrying about getting traffic and customers to pay tier fees, this type of "desperation advertising" will go away overnight. That, and you ban it, because at that point there will be no excuse for it!

It probably would help if executed correctly. This would run into a much bigger problem though: Not everyone has income or is here to make money.

My land for example has no income, in fact I don't really have income at all from SL. My land is there for me to build and play around on and show off what I come up with. If I do make something to distribute I ether give it away free or charge a tiny fee (like L$10). LL would have about a full server-worth of land to pay bandwidth, electricity costs, etc. on and never get a dime from me other than my premium member fee, which I doubt would cover much of the upkeep costs. Right now they get $195 a month charging me tier. With just an income tax they might get $1 a month.

Be very, very, very, very careful.

Most of us came to Second Life BECAUSE of its policy of NON-INTERFERENCE; we came because we did NOT wish to be 'guided'. Keep this very firmly in mind.

I've lived mainland & rented in private sims. I have owned a business on mainland for over the last year which grew from a 4096 to a half sim. Ad Farms attempting to extort, bots producing 'child agents' peering around the land, uninvited guests browsing through my texture organizer from 40m away, idiots taking a seat in my home, accosting my house guests, thieves searching for un-permed animations/creations to steal, and the annoying griefs were a few things I encountered on both private and/or mainland. Generally, they happen far less in private sims.

Ban Lines : Use an option to see them, with the ceiling going up past 700m, generally I would use the sky for sandboxes. Thus, you generally want to try as much as possible to keep thieves at bay, even if orbs and ban lines are a weak attempt. It just makes it a bit more difficult for them so your scanners can pick them up.
I too hate flying/sailing in my car/boat/spaceship/hoverboard and getting my butt stuck in a barrier. Being able to turn an option on to SEE Ban Lines.. GREAT IDEA.

Privacy : To those who don't care who use their beds or toys, I noticed its fairly a male "thing" to not care and want to watch, and probably irl they would react much the same way. On the other hand, I noticed females like myself, prefer at least the illusion of privacy, feel violated if it is encroached upon, and take great joy in hoisting the offending parties off the sits and into the stratosphere. If the concept is to make a home, we have that right to privacy even if people can cam. Housing in the sky can help the cam situation but you don't want someone flying through your living room either. Hence the ability to make your land group only.

Litter: Its the responsibility of the landowner to keep his property clean. Welcome to the Trailer parks of SL. Some people just don't care enough about their land to see what is on it.

Ad Farms : #1 SLX atms do not require a 16x16 plot. If its for your own personal vendor, to set and LM as you ARE IN THE PROCESS of moving fine. Get a permit to do so. Much like IRL (I know we hate the comparison but we don't have much else to draw on except TV) , if the constructions goes beyond the sanctioned for your area, you must apply for a permit for certain types of construction. Perhaps each continent can host several SL volunteers/mentors who can work as a notary.

My personal issue at the present time to which I am still waiting for a definitive answer from Jack, George, or Katt ..concerning the Protected Land/Water south of business sim.

Protected Land/Maintenance : As stated by an earlier post
"Land use
- it should be possible to circumnavigate all continents via Maintenance owned land and eventually fly / sail between them all
- nobody should buy land next to an open water Maintenance sim and then discover that the Maintenance sim gets sold, developed and filled up, cutting off their access to the oceans - so if that's the eventual destiny of a Maintenance sim, figure out a way of making that obvious to potential buyers of neighboring land "

When all is said and done. Communication seems to be what is missing; Conflicting stories/rules/reasoning/enforcement from Linden employees, bending of rules, vague answers etc etc etc.
I've been waiting for a clear Yes the water south will be put to auction eventually or NO it wont from any Linden at the top of the food chain.
Everyone here seems a bit confused on what rules are enforced all the time, some of the time, or only for a few. TOS has been bent and broken left and right.

A friend who is leaving SL offered to give me her sim free, on mainland to do as I please including selling it. At this point, will it be more of a headache to keep it or sell it off to invest in private sim ? Do I keep my marina and hope my renters can sail freely, or do I close it and turn it into something else or even move the whole business off mainland ?

I am waiting to see how this turns out, which questions are answered, what is resolved before I decide what of the latter to do...and personally I suppose I am getting as impatient as the rest of the people here.

Nuff said..
Mysti

simple economics for ya'll

220 ad blocks bought for less than $80 ld (minimal upkeep via tier)
Yesterday 18 valid clicks (deducted one) for my half price one week sale.
Despite "owning up" here, only one contact from a guy who started off threatening,progressed to name calling, then refused my offer of sale (at cost) of $75LD - then went on to blatently lie and exagerate here in the forums - whilst pretending he "knew the guy" who contacted me. And he admits to advertising on small blocks himself

So thats a 7-8% success rate in one day, vs one complaint, for minimal investment and ongoing costs.

My point? simple stats show that this type of advertising does work. People are interested. And people seem to ignore the facts... that they bought in unzoned land, with existing ads around them...and they do have a choice to purchase in ad free regions.
And the Lindens explicitly have stated advertising is allowed on smaller parcels.

However, yes there is a problem with some AVs using pseudo advertising and dubious techniques (banlines now) to extort faster, more expensive land sales. I have seen these techniques used to bully people off whole sims, and extort land sales for large blocks as well as small.

Visual muting please
Maximum land price for smaller blocks please

this morning in my IM if you refer to me JubJub :

[22:45] Mr Victim : (Saved Fri Aug 08 02:59:56 200 Hiya Timo....what is TAG?
[22:45] Mr Victim : (Saved Fri Aug 08 03:02:42 200 Never mind..i see ur one of the people who encourage harassment
[22:45] Mr Victim : (Saved Fri Aug 08 03:03:42 200 yet your land contains ads for your own products..i'm guessing you allow others to adevertise your products on their land too


Btw : i didnt purchase that plot of you simply cause you ll look for another plot for L$ 60 to terrorize another...

Your funny .. In real life commercials advertisers are allowed to lie a certain percentage. How much ? 40% or some ? You just passed that amount.

And if i would advertise the same way as you would do i ve to put up three 16x32x40 max prims on a 512...

Mr JubJub.. you have the advantage of communicating in your own language, so when you open your mouth, then try at least to speak the truth...

Nothing to disagree with here. Spam is legal. Spam works. We all know that. Most hate it. Almost none complain.

The problem with this is that LL will lose the revenue from all the land owners who don't generate income. A great number of people don't bother with SL income streams and take the income they generate in RL to pay their SL expenses.

The day tier payments go away is the day SL concedes they're desperate because some competition has finally come along.

I love this idea as I wouldn't need to pay either, Esther giggles

But somehow I don't see LL being so enamored with this idea think it might just break them!
especially with no tier I could go on one crazy Land shopping spree

There again at least the land would start to sell for more

Really don't think this is the answer.