Feedback on Ad Farm Post - Part 2

I think that was the one I was in on. When one of the ad people griped about it I asked if flying and teleporting did not work for the person.

One thing I did not get a reply to: say an ad plot is surrounded by several people who have all built around the ad (gee, actually using our property!). Who is the person who has to provide the path?

Theatre productions, games, music, stores, treasure hunts. It's a big place here, I wouldn't be actively looking for some of those things but when I see they exist they interest me.

Argent, you state "There are ads in random parcels that provide no benefit to the people around them (the adfarms)".
Please provide your proof.
I can prove they do provide benefit...cause people click on them and increase sales in the shops they advertise.... so please explain exactly how you know there is no benefit. Not just your opinion, proof/stats/stories please.

Also i ask,
If you own land in SL and if so how much? Just a simple answer please.
And what qualifications/experience you have in advertising/marketing?
I can see 3 x $50 ads in your profile, and you seem to hate any other sort of marketing... so please explain to us all why we should listen to you telling us how to market/advertise? Ie previous experience in-world and out.. your success stories etc.

Talarus...can you do the same please?
You are both in here with repeated posts saying the same thing over and over...ie ads are a waste of time and harass people. I have stats and results that prove way different, and i know at least two others who have similar proof. I am very interested in what proof you have of your opinions. Stats/polls/success stories or similar please...not just the familiar lines of "everyone knows... blah blah".

Now lets all see if more verbal attacks, or actual logical results/answers.

How is that a benefit to the people around them? I haven't said that they don't benefit the advertisers. I've said they don't benefit the people who reside in the sims that they're parasitizing.
I'm not telling anyone how to market or advertise. I'm pointing out that certain kinds of advertising do not scale, that they cause significant damage to the channel that they are piggybacking on, and that the advertisers do not provide any compensation to the people and institutions that suffer from that damage.

I *know* that spamming can be profitable. Lots of antisocial behavior can be very profitable, if that wasn't the case a lot of real life problems wouldn't exist.

The fact that it's profitable doesn't have any bearing on whether it should be tolerated.

And if they weren't being advertised on ad towers you would never find them? You ONLY ever find them by ads on ad towers?

I generally find out about hose kinds of things through word-of-mouth, myself.

I have been to your sky store once or twice a while ago, and I sure did not click on some ad farm to find it. I think I used search or saw one of your creations somewhere and looked up your profile and classifieds and took it from there. It was so long ago, I forgot what I bought!

Who said anything about ad towers? They're advertised, we're in a 3D visual world here, visual representation is important. I've not seen anything useful on an ad tower so far, but hey, I've seen them. Next you'll be telling me you only know about ad towers because of word of mouth

Those same words were brought up by some other advertiser at a previous OH meeting (I think it was the famous "Twinkie" Meeting), and it was asked basically, "Do you have 3rd party proof or just your own numbers". It went wishy-washy after that - stuff about signing Non-Disclosure Agreements and such.

I have (had) up to 40 different advertising obelisks/towers/blocks/etc next to me in my region for many months. I have yet to see ANY benefit from having them there.

1) They don't add to my revenue (conversely, they have driven away revenue)
2) They don't add to my traffic (conversely, they have driven away traffic)
3) They don't add to my land value (conversely, they have driven down ALL land value in my region)

What more proof do you need?



Yeah, I am sure you believe they are helping you, at my (and others') expense. I've been giving that proof for months, to both residents and Linden Lab directly. What proof do you need? I have it.



I started out owning around 2200sqm of mainland in Oct 2006. I now own well over 10 times that much and am a Concierge customer.

I have helped to establish and grow a private estate from 1 sim to 15 sims as an Estate Manager.



I currently operate a 21-year IT consulting business which started out building and selling computer equipment in the mid-80s. That included mounting local, regional, and national advertising campaigns in various media over that time.

I am presently preparing the fruits of 2.5 years of effort in SL for marketing and sale.



As per usual, you overgeneralize our statements and comments. I have SPECIFICALLY STATED NUMEROUS TIMES that (and listen carefully this time) *I_AM_NOT_AGAINST_ADVERTISING*. There are specific, INTRUSIVE/OBTRUSIVE *FORMS* of advertising that I am against.

What proof do I have of my opinions? What proof do I need? Do you like to receive spam email? Do you like people calling your home or business all day and night, trying to get you to buy their yogurt mooshers or cheap health insurance? Do you like people coming to your house and trying to sell you a vacuum cleaner while you are trying to have a birthday party for your child? Does anyone? Some truth is self-evident, Jubjub, and doesn't need "proof".

Does spam advertising work? If your litmus is simply a handful of sales, then sure, it works. That's what spammers count on.. they shotgun the greater public, expecting to find some weak-minded person to believe that they REALLY are a Nigerian Prince who has millions of dollars they need help in smuggling out of the country, or that they are so self-conscious about their supposed sexual inadequacy to order a bottle of pills to feel better about it. I've never said that it doesn't work; what I have said is that it is parasitic, abusive, and nowhere near as effective as other forms of legitimate advertising, because it has far more potential for consumer backlash. IE, you run the risk with any advertising of annoying someone into not buying your product or service. However, with spam advertising, the risk is MUCH greater, for less return.

However, if you want to sit down and compare percentages, you'll find that the pathetic 1-2% returns on spam advertising are NOTHING compared to the returns on something like Word-of-Mouth advertising, optional media advertising, or directory advertising, all of which can net you return rates up to 10x more, depending on many factors.

If you are serious about becoming a professional advertiser, and have no real background in the business, I STRONGLY urge you to do some serious research before you continue. Just Google "advertising methods consumer backlash", and go down through the pages that come up. One of the first ones is a Forrester (a MASSIVE marketing research company) research paper. You can't read it there without paying US$279 for it, but you can glean some of the highlights from that page to get the gist of where it is going. Further down, you will find articles by both marketing and anti-marketing organizations alike. I suggest you read EACH AND EVERY ONE.

Of the ones I saw on the first page, this one caught my eye:

http://www.clickz.com/showPage.html?page=811161

Probably the most important part from the whole article:



To apply those principles to SL, swear off spam methods altogether, that includes advertisements on microparcels in other people's back/front yards. Don't harass or attempt to persuade.. simply inform. Respond quickly and affirmatively to those with concerns about your practices. Lastly, and most importantly of all, SHOW SOME PROFESSIONAL RESPECT. I have yet to see a SINGLE advertiser in SL who has shown ANYone even a TINY bit of professional respect. If any of you all ran a real advertising business in RL, you'd all be out of business in a few weeks, because your reputation would get around town REAL fast. Reputation for an advertising business is PRECIOUS GOLD, because other people will be trusting you with THEIR reputations, and the LAST entity with whom they are going to trust with their reputation is someone who has a sour one already.

Right. I was making a much more limited analogy--and one that has proven impossible for anyone to follow.

All I was trying to say was that Google--an advertising company at its heart, with search technology as eyeball bait--uses advertising in a sophisticated way, eschewing one medium (banner ads) in favor of its own more effective forms. Similarly, SL can have perfectly effective means of advertising without any use of microparcel display ads.

The fact that some advertisers have found some benefit from using such primitive ads doesn't imply that they're doing anything smart: they may simply not know how to make effective use of other advertising media at their disposal that would render those display ads as absurd in effect as they are in appearance. Arguing that they "need" that kind of advertising is as convincing as arguing that Google is missing out by not using banner ads.

But Google does use banner ads, and spreads them all over the web. I said that earlier. Whilst they don't own all the 'microparcels' in websites, they do place their clients' ads in them, including banner ads. Not only that, but they produce their own banner ads to place in 'microparcels' all over the web.

The difference is that they don't own the 'microparcels' - they put them in other peoples'.

Jack Linden?

Banner ads aren't analogous to "microparcels", they're analogous to paid ads in magazines, newspapers, and (in SL) clubs and other venues. Banner ads subsidize the content that you are specifically visiting the website for. Microparcels are like people posting ads in blog comments, they provide no benefit to the owners of the land in the sim that the potential customers are visiting.

Perhaps you could list those "contributions" then? I guess you must have been too busy; whining, complaining and making false assumptions as well as libelous attacks on legitimate business people, to have noticed the actual positive contiributions I made.

To be frank, both of you have engaged in nothing more than demonization of anyone who advertises, with inane "Yes you are"/"No I'm not" back and forth posts for page after page.
The two of you just like to read your own words I guess but I can assure you the rest of us are sick and tired of it. Babble on all you like but everything you have said is wasted electrons as far as most of us are concerned.

And I couldn't care less if either of you ever shop in my stores. I've done plenty of business without yours and will continue to do so.

Try reading his posts. Pretty much every one has a bit of wisdom in it that is of benefit to anyone who listens.

Libel, eh? Pray tell, what UNTRUE statements have I made, and against whom?



Now, there's libel for ya. Only demonizing PRACTICES, not PEOPLE. Not ANY practices, either. Specific ones which have been enumerated post after post, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good patch of whining, complaining, making false assumptions as well as making libelous attacks.



"rest of us". Well, that would be you, Jubjub, and Robo. At least you are in good company.



It's not me or Argent you should be concerned about over that, but the rest of the lurking masses out there witnessing your spectacle.

My closing comments to the Lindens are...
(because this thread will be closed any minute for fighting i reckon)

Please fix up legitimate channels for advertising - for example:

a) clean up the community notices so they are just that,

b) make the classifieds easier to search - maybe use a search engine that has multiple criteria to search by and different sort features

c) make the classifieds on the web searchable - I have tried fruitlessly to search for specific things on a number of occasions

d) make the sort feature on the classifieds on the web not by price!! Just read the first page to see what i mean.

e) in general don't have some device that can be manipulated to get a person to the top of the list, like traffic etc.

I feel that by making these positive changes it will at least address part of the problem and then unsolicited advertising can be outlawed. Business owners have a legitimate need to advertise and residents have a legitimate need for privacy and freedom from harrassment. If the regular channels were effective most of the problem would go away.

Wow Argent, all that experience in marketing and yet you continue to say ads on ad parcels don't work? And you advise clients that 'fact' of yours? I know they work..not just a handful of sales either (again you deride anything you don't agree with). Have you actually tried them to prove your point? (it's called research) or just stating an uneducated opinion?
I asked for proof from you.. you state that ads nearby caused your land to lose 'value'..yet provided no proof that they caused that. Nor that they drove away business, nor anything else u state..no proof...no stats...just your opinion - which seems a little self-defeating..ie if they drove business away..then why remain there?
I now provide proof that other factors cause land value loss... despite this thread illustrating Lindens clear intentions to stop ad networks..land has lost more value over the last few weeks - lowest price for a 1024 has lost 1/4 of its value. Indeed mainland has been generally losing value for over a year..and this latest policy has done nothing to halt that.
Your arguments are simplistic, exaggerated, and seem based on your opinion alone.

Ads on small blocks do work, and your customers for marketing will remain unaware of it because of your personal preference. I have stated in previous posts that my sales keep climbing...so where is the backlash? Mc Donalds plaster ads everywhere they can.. including uninvited ones on TV yet remain the top takeaway brand worldwide... backlash from 'in-your-face' advertising hurts them? I think not.

I am absolutely positive that my sales increase because of my ads on small blocks - i know through first-hand research - with and without ads, with different types of ads, and different calls to action, and your opinion is based on what? Hearsay and emotionalism?
I have seen people here state they don't click on those ads... i have statistics that outnumber those people at a factor of several hundred to one. I have seen people complain it harasses them, and indeed have received IMs and notes indicating that view... again..simple click statistics outnumber those by 1000s to one.
If valid ads didn't work why would anybody waste time and effort?

You are entitled to your view... until it's backed up with actual proof i will consider it your's alone. I pity customers getting marketing advice from you and not getting the full picture of all methods in here. Don't you have a duty as a professional to at least do your own research on their effectiveness?

And a correction if i may...Microparcels are not 'like' blog ads... they are modelled on roadside advertising... a proven business model in real life. The difference being no roadside ads in residential neighbourhoods in RL, but then there are no residential neighbourhoods in Mainland - it's uncovenanted.

Once again, nothing more than stupidity, false assumptions and personal attacks. Try an original thought for a change instead of beating the same foolish sound bites to death over and over. You haven't said anything NEW in over 70 pages. You're doing nothing more than wasting everyone's time with your petty cry baby insults. Time to lock this thread because it's been going nowhere for over 40 pages now thanks to Talarus and Argent dragging it down to the point of a shouting match. Way to be "pillars of the community" Shouting down anyone who doesn't agree with your anti business, anti advertising rhetoric. Give it a rest ok? Geeez.

Try eating some of your own dog food for a change.

You know, you could try reading what I actually wrote, instead of making things up and pretending that's what I wrote.

Right: not on google.com; not where it's their content at stake.

And you're quite correct: they certainly do help others spread them around the web, but again, my point wasn't about Google doing no evil nor, even, that banner ads are themselves evil; rather, that Google doesn't waste its own page space with a form of advertising that detracts from its own more effective ad media. And that advertisers in SL could likewise use the medium to their benefit instead of trying to scrape by with something lame lifted from another medium.

I still submit that any business that can detect any benefit from advertising with microparcel display ads is just inept at using all the other ways of advertising in SL.

(I admit, though, that this made me check to make sure the AdSense guys hadn't infested google.com with banner ads, too. Not that I actually care, but for the purpose of my analogy I was relieved to see that they've only gone cynical, not stupid.)

Any one still paying tier and not logging in is still paying tier and as such may wish to return to any land holdings they have, people have real lives beyond SL and for any number of genuine reasons could be unable to log in for months.
All land held in lapsed accounts should be recycled quickly though.



I am suggesting any number of micro parcels held above 50 by any user or alts of that user should be reclaimed unless express reasons that satisfy Linden Labs can be given.
My reason for this are most users holding more than 50 micro parcels are doing so for no reason but to profit from their extortion practices.
The few that hold them for a genuine purpose should have no problem gaining permission from Linden Labs to continue operating them.
50 parcels still allows users to use micro parcels for advertising, small vending plots, slx terminals etc.

Yeah, maybe. As I recall, the point of the post about those parcels (that somebody made, way back) was that they posed problems for healing back together build-sized parcels, and warranted some consideration. And I do think they pose a problem--and the smaller they are, the bigger the problem they pose.

If LL established some new policy about microparcel holdings that limited their ownership--such as your suggested cap of 50--then some of those "AWOL owner" parcels would get swept up anyway. And maybe that would be good.

Another option would be to limit the powers available to owners of (some?) microparcels, such that they just don't interfere with development around them. But I'm not sure what I even mean by this.

What's fundamentally screwed up here is that the Mainland is scarred by years of radical laissez faire history--the absentee Estate manager effect--and we're stuck between distasteful choices about how to clean up the mess it has created. Very careful and limited "eminent domain" to recover long-AWOL-owner microparcels isn't appealing, but leaving them scattered around the grid is pretty damaging, too. (Whatever way the extortion problem ends up being addressed will be even uglier, I fear: it's just ain't gonna go away on its own, and it's much more damaging. And I sure don't see a palatable way to clean up after that history of negligence.)

Your right Jubby there are other factors that influence the falling price of land but adfarms do and can be proven to lower land value, they also are useless for the purpose of advertising, by adfarm I am refering to a large area of cut up land around 512sqm to 1024sqm you know the sort just a pile of crap normally with a few ban lined parcels thrown in.
The parcels I am refering to have no pupose but extortion, for most of their owners.



Adverts placed out on their own in good places with high traffic get clicks they do work and have a clear purpose for their owners which is not to extortion.
Couple this with new size limits of 8m height and they will not be a problem unless clusters of them begin to occur again, LL has stated only one advert per sim and 50 of them to hopefully prevent this occurring.
There will not be a backlash by the average user if nice well placed bill boards are put out the backlash comes when a large set of blocks is thoughtlessly dumped in potential customers backyards etc.
There are people with a hatred of advertising, these few will always be unhappy will any form of advertising is allowed and they would never support companies that advertise, that is their unique view and not held by the majority.



The blocks look like crap Jubby, piles of 4m blocks were a poor effort in advertising and show very little thought for any surrounding neighbours.
Little well designed adverts will get many less complaints and more clicks
Many Adfarmers not Advertisers use big towers of blocks to harass, they are not advertisers and should not be treated as such often they didn't even bother to put an advert on their towers.
People do get emotional when some c*ck puts a pile of cr*p on their doorstep and they also pay to have it removed thats why they put them out and it has nothing to do with advertising.



Microparcels are seperate to advertising, microparcels have many uses advertising is just one of the uses.
Roadside placement of adverts is based on the real life practices you mention, most users don't have a problem with that.
I is all uncovenanted, but if people have chosen to build houses in an area then that area becomes residential traffic to the area falls and advert placement is not going to be effective.
If the area has shops placed there then it becomes commercial and traffic raises making the area a prime position to advertise in.
Sure there is no zoning in place to say areas cannot change in the future but thats the risk any advertiser takes with uncovenanted land.

The problems with advertising have hopefully been solved by LL under this proposal, limiting the number of adverts allowed should force sensible placement of adverts.

However my problem is with the few c*cks that would just love to carry on extorting the residents of second life.