Feedback on Ad Farm Post - Part 2

Not according to LL. Their rationalization is that everyone is entitled to own land, no matter how small, or where it's placed. Apparently simply being embedded in your land and set for sale at 19999$L with scripts, object entry, flight and build all turned off is not a violation of TOS to them. "You don't HAVE to buy it" they'll say. Sure and I don't HAVE to use my land for what I intended either. I can be held hostage instead by some geek who fancies him or herself as some sort of royal landed Baron or Baroness. LOL, How tragically LAME that is goes without saying. Too bad that everyone else is being made to suffer so they can indulge their delusions of granduer.

This bit of the legislation is really not thought through in my eyes. This little paragraph assures ugliness be at eye level on the ground, which is not the best option out of your living room window. Floating ads, high... is what assures a plesant view at ground level. Indeed just that in an ad parcel is what eleviated my concerns about the parcel next door. This needs a rethink.

Another thing, this legislation is an assault on a landowner's bundle of rights to ownership, in all sizes of parcels. If you're trying to regulate Ad Farms then, by god, regulate Ad Farms. To evoke legislation that's so broad it effects any and all land owners is the obvious work of simpletons, or legislators unconcerned with the impact of the methods they use to fight the fires of public outcry.

IE: This is aimed at Ad Farms. Then put the restrictions on parcels of 32 sq. meters or smaller. As you have it, and in action this morning, you've removed one of my objects from a 512K parcel that, as an expensively taxed parcel with NO Covenants, I have a perfect right to have on that parcel.

The first thing a "thinking" piece of legislation is gonna do to these ends is add these rules as covenants to these small parcels. Do that! And don't be imposing laws not covered under covenant restrictions. First and foremost to new regulation is Grandfathering to old land owners. You don't change the deal at whim after a contract is entered. Linden Labs provided a contract of acceptable use when land was offered with NO covenants and bought.

Make new contracts, don't break old ones.

and... when you guys are tired of my $75US in Linden taxation, kick me and we'll be done.

Being part of a legitimate RL company operating within SL we have always tried to follow the TOS and community standard guidelines seriously. So imagine our shock last night when one of our FOR SALE signs placed on regular 512 sq m plot gets returned to us with a strongly worded warning via e-mail.

Yes we are protesting this via the regular channels but more importantly, with the general public addressing and responding to this issue from only their perspective no one is addressing the issues of the real estate trader community, at least those who are operating legitimate real estate businesses within SL.

We need urgent clarifications on the following ...

1. If we own several regular sized plots within a sim does placing normal For sale signs for the purpose of legitimate land sales constitute a TOS violation.

2. What happens if i own more than 50 plots across SL, most land traders do ...

3. Considering that the new rules are specifically intended against 16 sq m ad farms, why is that we are being issued warnings for non networked For Sale signs on regular 512 plots which are mostly within the prescribed limits.

4. What exactly is the prescribed standard for a -FOR SALE - sign on a regular plot.

It must be understood by all that many of you may not like the so called land barons or disagree with their activities in SL, but please also understand we take huge risks on a daily basis, invest thousands of dollars into the SL economy and pay tiers month after month irrespective of whether we are making any profits at all and it is we who absorb the losses when land prices fall to the ridiculous levels they are at now.

What i would request urgently is a specific guideline for signage's - not ad boards - on regular plots ie 512 and above, and specific differentiation in the rules regarding 16 sq m plots 512 sq m plots.

Rules that end up targeting legitimate businesses need to be addressed and revised ... we need a friendly environment within which to do business and some creative latitude within which to do it.

The rules for signs were listed on the blog. It was stated by LL that the same exact standards for other ads applied to 'for sale' signs' too.

2 things

1 a sign on a chunk of land describing the land as being for sale of reasonable size
(rule being how big of a sign would a RL Realtor put up) should not cause an abuse report.
Now if the sign is huge flashing lit up and spamming notecards for half the sim yes it should be reported


2 filing a false abuse report should cause a warning/ other action (this will stop a cutter from ar'ing a legit business) . In fact if a single person has less than 10% real issues then any ar's from that person should be automatically drop as invalid (begin this at 10 reports)

I love it when they squirm like this, whats amazing is that they don't think they are in the wrong in the first place. Anoying other residents is ok because it's their land and they can do as they please with it.

Now that the new rules are starting to have a real effect they are trying to have them diluted down or codified so they can find a way to side step them and go back to their previous practices. Just accept the fact that your 12,000,000L for a 16m2 plot is now worth 4-16L tops. Go away, your day is done, you are not wanted here anymore.

Reasonable rule is in effect, as administered by human beings with a sense of right and wrong. Attempts to go back to your previous ways won't work, your buisness is at an end, accept it.

This thread has now served it pupose and should now be closed.

Well, I suppose if all ads could be limited to start at 4088m. But there's a strong case against any "floating" ads: once the damned things cast shadows, the closer to the ground they are, the less horrible it will be.

But beware: the potential for visual griefing of all kinds goes way up in the shadow draft viewer. Suddenly the neighbor can not only blight your line of sight, but put your parcel in the dark. That will suck, it will.

Wow, so not only can a brightly colored no talent big box be much too big at 8m, but also truly darken my doorstep? What happened to ads matching their surroundings?

Firstly the only people who are squirming with regards to the new rules are the actual ad farmers whom we all dislike the rest of us are trying to conform to the prescribed new rules to the best of our understanding, do try and understand several of us still have ethics and do not indulge in such ridiculous short term shabby practices using 16 sq m plots to block views and extort ransom money to clear out ... i have been on the receiving end of such activities when i was setting up my mall so i know how it feels and thus would never inflict it on anyone else.

Personally i only sell regular plots 512 sq m and upward and my specific questions were regarding legitimate -For Sale - signs ... they are essential to real estate businesses because unlike you and me who are experienced in SL and know how to turn on property lines and land owner setting within the word settings - many new players wanting to own land do not and hence cannot immediately distinguish normal land and land for sale.


Additionally it must be understood that each individual or group tries to create a identity and look with its signage to distinguish itself from competitors and the look is designed to attract attention - ever walked out of you house in RL and seen a billboard for the latest car or cola brand - they try and grab your attention and get you to buy a product, it is exactly the same in SL.

The confusion stems from precisely the point that ad boards , networked ad boards and normal signage are being considered equal ... so if someone has in depth knowledge on this help me understand the following ...

1. I have 128 plots of 512 sq m or above in size on sale, if i put a regular prescribed sale sign on each am i violating the 50 max prescribed limit.

2. I have several plots in the same sim sometimes next to one another for example when i break up a 2048 s m plot which isnt selling into smaller 512 sq m plots ... now if i put sale sign on each 512 am i breaking the max 1 signage limit per region limit.

3. What constitutes fitting in with the region around me, i have a group logo so people know they are buying from me ... why because i provide post sales support to new players unfamiliar with land, its my marketing strategy and i cant change my logo or signage for each sim or region, so how do we proceed here because even a prescribed sign conforming to the standards can be said to not conform with a regions look.

4. Why are the new rules and regulations so broad in nature and not more specific, when we are all aware of how many thousands of sq m are up for sale and that almost anyone wishing to sell land at any time is affected by this now.

5. Last but more important is the biggest contradiction of all - if LL is treating ad boards and for sale signs the same - then isnt the ruling "if we review your land transactions and deduce that your primary purpose in placing the advertising content is to force the sale of land rather than genuinely advertise, this will be deemed to be a violation and dealt with accordingly." an absolute contradiction - how are we supposed to sell land if we cant place a sign on it that says its for sale - has anyone ever brought a house in RL or driven past houses for sale in your neighborhood which have sign saying this house for rent or sale please call so and so Realtor for details.

So whats acceptable in RL is suddenly pariah in SL, personally i believe there is a requirement for further detail in these broad guidelines and more specifics required with regard to day to day situations we are actually facing in world - you cant just drop a back of the envelope memo onto people and make it law without addressing each and every specific situation that may arise from it - that's the real difference between a first world country and a banana republic who just make it up as they go along.

I for one would like to more specific guidelines for 16 sq m plots, and then regular plots and a clear differentiation between them.

Additionally a separate footnote standard (other than the standards a sign needs to be) for sale signage for genuine regular sized plots and regular sellers. How much can we do with the sign, can we make it artistic or creative, can we put logos or does it need to be plain - i for one know of a sign that looks like a wishing well with a for sale sign on a wooden post near it with an old oil lamp- it sends out fireworks when you buy the land congratulates you on your purchase and then deletes itself - i think its great but the BROAD scope of the guidelines say otherwise - we need specific details covering all situatations , if i went to my boss with a project proposal that defined something so complex as SL so vaguely and broadly, hed tell me to stay back after work and do it all again and get it right.

Heres one final suggestion to eliminate the 16 sq m plot problem altogether - the only legitimate purposes for which are cutting and shaping plots and sometimes eliminating irregular sized plots > code SL to allow 16sq m plots to remain undefined in nature for a maximum period of one week within which it has to be declared as either for advertisement, for sale or regular ownership ... the system can then correlate which individual is using how many plots for ads automatically, in the instance the 16 sq m plot is placed on sale correlate objects on plot and sale price against average land prices in SL and red flag those plots which appear 3x or higher against the average land price ... and finally correlate this database against abuse reports ... now your left with a manageable number of plots which need to be manually checked by staff.

The blog post specifically allows to you seek written permission from LL

"We will allow no more than 50 advertising locations owned by a single individual, whether personally owned or via groups in which you are a member, unless you have written permission from Linden Lab to exceed this limit."

You certainly have access to the concierge desk, so you could discuss this whole issue with them. Ask them exactly what you can and cannot do. Find out what is necessary to obtain 'written permission'.

Likely they will request your standard copy of the signs, a current list of locations (or as current as possible) and your plan for placement of the signs.

If you are in RL real estate, I'm sure you've had to comply with city ordinances in a similar fashion. It's really no different.

The difference between annoying and obnoxious ad farmers and legitimate land developers is obvious. Your case should be easy to prove.

Yes, I do shop via turning on the viewer commands to find land. Or even just turning on the map and looking for yellow areas. Frankly, after your neighbors know the land is for sale a sign is a sign and equally a nuisance if it advertises a club or land.

You can thank some notorious ad farmers for that. In the most egregious case I saw, the most infamous one (no names, but the one that boo-hoos her native american ancestry when cornered) placed 5 of them on a small plot (3 floaty spinny ones, 2 flat-to-the-ground ones) and did not help the case for those signs being used as they were intended. As things stand right now, 'land for sale' signs *also* violate the 'no advertising on a plot for sale' policy and are being ARed .... most importantly the Lindens remove them.

As someone else said, take your case to Jack (although the OS issue has him a bit busy right now) as only the lindens can give you a waiver. My way of reading the rules is that the waiver is only there to give them an exception and would rarely be granted, but it really is the only recourse as the rules have been stated.

An alternative that would work just as well for real estate businesses would be to lobby to ban *all* land For Sale signs. The problem they face right now is that they only have a limited number they can use, and only one per sim when they may have multiple parcels for sale on that sim--yet they're competing for attention with those who have just a single parcel for sale and therefore can use a sign on that parcel. If *nobody* could use a land For Sale sign, the playing field would be level--and I have no doubt that pretty much the same people would end up buying pretty much the same land, just using other (and better) means of finding it.

I still don't see why any of these rules need to apply against normal-sized parcels.

(and I am NOT saying this because I like adfarmers or anything like that)

I have to agree with Argent Stonecutter, we all know the the real problem is and always has been the 16 sq m plot.

from my own personal observations over the years ive always noticed how any linden roadside or Gov linden maintained land has been an ad magnet for the ad hoarders, the other instances are when they cut holes in the middle of regular plots to get additional cash.

The reality is that a 16 sq m plot doesn't need to sell in any hurry as it attracts almost no tier liabilities and hence is considered a disposable opportunistic venture to garner extra money on the side by ad farmers.

On the other hand any regular sized plot attracts realistic fees and hence people tend to use it more carefully ... it needs to either be lived on, sell or provide its owner some personal or commercial value and hence it tends to be used for more regular purposes than ruining the neighborhood.

Yes the laws need to take this into consideration and be amended accordingly, i believe the existing laws have already taken care of the nasty flashy eyesores all that needs tweaking is to cater to legitimate realtors with regards to numbers and usage within regions, within the existing standards already set down.