Feedback on Ad Farm Post - Part 2

The search for Land sales is great. The search for people is great, the search for Shops, Places, and whatever...blows.

The reason I went to trying in world adverts was because of how bad search is.

People forget Search cost L$120 per month. Paying for classifieds more... PAYING for both was shown never to increase traffic to my rental communites or stores.

What works for me may not work for others. I totally agree with the regulation of ad farms and in world avertising. I've never spammed anyone by placing a huge sign in a center of a sim or sold any of my land at bizarre prices.

I would like to see regulations enforced, which sadly will not happen. If the governance team cannot keep up with the current 25K of abuse reports they receive each month, then you can forget about the quality of SL. If the quality of SL gets to a point where a person paying over 2000USD a month in tier can't get stupid annoying crap handled then Secondlife will become a virtual toilet and big players will avoid it. Not only will big players avoid it, but POTENTIAL people wanting to expand will take an about face and run. Already many of us are disapointed and starting to sell our holdings simply because when the first ruling hit with the "no multiple signs in the same sim thing"... nothing was done. When a guy can stick 2 mega prims of political crap on a 32m plot and stick a giant Pine tree on it overhanging on all the lots around it ...set it for sale and nothing gets done... you know SL is heading for the toilet.

and the toilet is clogged....

Do you just randomly turn up at the cinema then? Hope you'll enjoy the film because you sometimes like films? No idea what time it will start just that a film will be on at sometime? I think not.

Oh and you notice hardware stores because you drive past them, which is another example of advertising.

You've never noticed anything at all on your way round Second Life that you didn't search for? Really?

We respond to all requests to trade. We do it several times daily, as a courtesy to the neighbors. We reserve the right to inspect each plot on a case by case basis, before committing to a trade, because of numerous factors, ie adjoining ownership, protected land etc.

If you didn't get a response, it's likely because of capped IMs, offers to buy or otherwise unreasonable demands to disclose the nature of our business.

We don't respond to offers to buy, mainly because our policy states we will not sell under any circumstances.

I can vouch for Weedy - I was her neighbor for over a year and didn't know if for 6 months! Their policy is to only trade in the same sim, not sell and there is nothing on the 16sqm except maybe some sort of sim statistics data collection scripted object, which by far is much better than what -could- be there! Not a problem neighbor!

Incidentally, Weedy - you can remove me from your notes about that parcel in Mocis Region because I have totally moved from there...

L$120/month sounds like the "Show Place In Search for L$30/week" - doesn't get too much results because shoppers that want to buy something look in Classifieds, not Places.

Classifieds are the minimum of L$50/week, which in dollars, is not much. Even L$120 is pocket change. Instead of listing your parcel and whatever it is you are trying to sell in "Places", try the Classifieds with key words. Not guaranteeing anything, but they do give some bites to possible customers.

I think a lot of people in SL that create things and expect to sell them so soon expect too much. It takes some time to build a reputation and become successful. I would rather not advertise good stuff than advertise crap and have a bad reputation at what I make.

Considering I haven't gone to the cinema on my own volition in the last 5 years or so, but instead have gone with someone else BECAUSE *they* were going, yeah, that's pretty much how it works with me. I didn't go because it was advertised, I went because someone told me WORD OF MOUTH.



A presence is not simply advertising, it is identification. Methinks your definition of "advertising" is just a tad overbroad to be useful here.

For that matter, you could say that you simply walking in the room is "advertising your presence". Well, yah, but that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the context of advertising we're discussing here, especially since a number of forms of "advertising" have ALREADY been exempted by the new policy, and I have said a number of times that I don't have a problem with advertising that is >*>*>*>*>*>*OPT IN*<*<*<*<*<*<*. I only have issues with advertising that is FORCED on me without my consent, and/or is parasitic in nature.

Never said I had a problem with friends telling me about something cool.
Never said I had a problem with signs over stores.
Never said I had a problem with listings or ads in a directory.
Never said I had a problem with ads in a opt-in medium; magazine, television, website, etc. I may block them, mute them, or otherwise avoid/ignore them, but if they are paying for the content, fine. If they get too intrusive, I'll get the content elsewhere. MY CHOICE.

At the end of the day, I don't *NEED* to be advertised to. That means, I don't *NEED* to have some effing BS shoved into my face to let me know that it exists when I really couldn't care less about it. If YOU want it, fine, OPT-IN to it for yourself; don't OPT me IN with you, though.

THAT is what I am talking about. THAT is what Argent was talking about when he said that and you said "Yes they do". You redefined what he is calling "advertising" in that context into your own overbroad definition, where simply asserting existence is "advertising". We're not talking about that, we (or at least I am, and as I understand what he is saying) are talking about "advertising" in the sense of UNsolicited, intrusive, attention-stealing, spammy, in-your-face marketing content, specifically designed and targeted to drive commercial consumption, and completely detached from location/product/service/event being advertised.

A sign over a store isn't that.
A listing in a search engine isn't that.
A recommendation from a friend isn't that.
Product packaging isn't that.

Even though an ad in a venue IS that, I still have the OPTION to not expose myself to it, by simply not going to that venue, or otherwise avoiding exposure to it if I so wish.

Yeah, but the trick to adfarming extortion is pissing off people who are NOT wanting to look.

No I decide I want to watch a movie then open the cinimas website to check when it's on, I don't need a spinning neon sign outside my front door like some apparently think we do.
And contrary to the idiots in advertising s belief 10 of the same advertising sign side by side do not sell 10 times more product or make me buy 10 tickets to the same movie.

Nothing from a spinning glowing neon particle spewing lagfest temp rezzing adfarm sign in a residential sim that's for sure.

... and moved into RL time for me. Might anyone who was able to attend report on the proceedings? I'm particularly interested in whether Jack gave any hint of having read or planning to read anything in this thread since his last post here?

If not, really, we all have better things to do than to further bandy this tattered birdie.

Same here, what used to be my favorite foodstuff was not found through any more advertising than reading the box in a store. After starting to buy it my partner started to like it after I said how good it was. Then we got one junk mail about the product (no, they did not have our contact info, so it was them spamming). That immediately put us off and neither of us has ever bought that product since.

See my above post, I think you forgot me in your 'everyone' poll.

I find that utterly astonishing. You cut off your nose to spite your face, and you're glad that you do it. Incredible.

Ciaran.
It seems it has to be accepted that there are a few exceptions who are so against advertising that they really don't need to be advertised to. They miss out on things, but it's their choice (see Kara's post that I quoted). There is no point in arguing with them because people are normal, in that we find advertisements to be beneficial, and those exceptions are just that - exceptions.

FWIW, it seems to me that the debate over the "need" for advertising is more semantic more substantive. Some are talking about whether advertising could ever benefit the advertiser (and if so, then it's "needed", and some are arguing a completely different point about whether commerce would continue if no advertising existed at all (and if so, it's not "needed".

Applied to the topic of display ads: sure, they might bring some business to advertisers (and would do it a hell of a lot more effectively if the count of display ads were limited to about 1% of the current number). But even so: this "effective ergo necessary" position is a little shaky: The exact same thing could be said of classic Nigerian spam.

But the other position, in pure form, is shaky too. It's very hard to argue that anyone is not influenced by advertising of *some* form. And SL really is all about demand for things nobody but nobody needs, so it could be argued that the whole damned platform is an advertising medium of sorts.

But really, applied to in-world display ads, saying that they're necessary to SL having an effective means for sellers to advertise is like saying Google really needs banner ads.

Ah but Google really *does* need ads. Without them, they couldn't have continued for too long. But that's the other side of advertising. When you get right down to it, Google is the biggest ad farmer on the planet.

Well, no offense Argent but you're completely wrong. I did run my businesses trying to rely on the inworld search, picks and classifieds alone. It just doesn't bring in the business that you think it does. If you want to barely scrape by with just enough income to pay for 1/4 of your tier, then people should do it your way. However, if you want to get maximum return on the work you've spent countless hours creating, then you're going to have to cast a wider net.

You seem to be more anti business than just anti advertising. Sorry, but without inworld businesses SL would be a really boring and sterile place. I'll continue using my few, legal roadside ads thank you. Because if I took your advice I'd be out of business, and somehow I don't think that would bother you.

Your bias against anything commercial is painfully obvious.

Oh, but that was my point--I was specifically likening *banner* ads on Google with in-world *display* ads in SL. That is to say: Google has much more effective means of doing advertising than the anachronistic banner ad, and at least arguably, the other means of advertising in SL should or could be more effective than display ads.

And to take it a step further: the other forms of advertising on Google are more effective *because* of the lack of banner ads. That would apply to in-world display ads, too.

I'm going to try and wrestle this thread back on topic, here goes...

My thoughts on Jack's blog are this;

I'm somewhat disappointed that there was no mention of 'placement' of ads inworld, ie: roadside vs. offroad, midsim 'ad farms', 'ad hoardings', 'ad clusters' or whatever you want to call these ad saturated clusters of 16m parcels. This is exactly the type of thing we want to rid SL of, but Jack really didn't reference it much other to say "no ban lines and keep hoardings phantom". I'd like some clarification of those points Jack. This is somthing that everyone will agree affects them directly.

The other point is ad lot extortion, and outrageous price gouging for reclaiming microparcels. From the action I've seen so far I'm hopefull that this will be dealt with swiftly on October 1st, especially in cases with long AR histories. This kind of abuse has got to stop if you ever want people to come back to mainland in numbers. It's basically Linden sponsored extortion.

Finally, there needs to be some consideration for microparcels owned by active accounts that are for all intensive purposes, abandoned. You find these more on old SL mainland continents, but they're just as much of an obstacle to land reclaimation and development as the person who won't sell their 16m in the middle of your backyard because it's theirs and they can do anything they want with it.

Hope to hear something from you soon Jack.

They are all forms of advertising, the context was whether we need to be advertised to, and we do or we wouldn't find anything. I'm now awaiting clarification as to whether I'm allowed to use hipporent boxes on mainland so this isn't just about spammy ad towers that serve no purpose other than to blight, I've long agreed with you about the misuse of them but this policy goes further.

I dunno why you think a response to being harassed and manipulated is astonishing. It's only disadvantageous if it is necessary for survival. There's plenty more things out there that can replace it from companies and people who don't see a need to harass and manipulate consumers and, most expecially, their customers.



I don't find it any less normal to not be a sheeple that is mesmerized into suckling on the teat of advertising. We_just_don't_buy_the_hype. Companies which don't go overboard to excess by intruding into our lives with advertising get our business. Ones that can't or won't respect that don't. *shrug* Seems rather simple and logical to me. However, I guess I can understand that people who have been conditioned and indoctrinated into mass consumerism since they were little kids might have a different point of view; one in which they see all advertising as beneficial.

However, don't think for a minute that we are simply a "fringe" group or "exception". Even advertising standards organizations recognize that a significant portion of the population, even in the US, are resistant to many forms of advertising, and that trying to target us is counter-productive.

5 to 6 days to october first.

Soon we will know the reality.

The rest is speculation.

Edit: I am not a fan of Gorilazz, but yesterday i see the clip from "FUN INC"

It is a perfect representations from SL today, including, degraded mainland, Mega PRIM towers and people living in Sky boxes.

See it and you will understand

I think this has turned into a semantics argument over the definition of "advertising".

When Argent says "we don't need to be advertised to", what I take that to mean is that we don't need someone to go out of their way to shove blatant commercial advertising in our face. I DO NOT take it to mean that business owners don't need to advertise their existence to us in some non-direct fashion where we can search for their "advertisement" at our leisure, but otherwise can be blissfully ignorant of their existence until such time as we want to know about it.

So, again,

Signs above stores are not it, because they are primarily identifying (though I would argue that a giant, spinny, particle spammy megaprim cube floating over a store would be considered bad).
Listings in a directory or other ad catalogue are not it, because I go to it; it doesn't come to me.
Recommendations from friends and family are not it, because they are not directly related to the advertiser (though if they paid a friend to spam me, said friend might find himself no a friend of mine anymore -- been there, too).
Information on product packaging, or a vendor in a store is not it, because it is informative as well as identifying.

I didn't say that a response to being manipulated and harrassed is astonishing. I said that deciding never to eat your favorite food again, because the makers sent you one unsolicted ad is astonishing.

A certain quantity of advertsisng is beneficial. Excessive advertising is detrimental and counterproductive. The only sensible argument is about where the tipping point is. Of course it depends on where the observer sits on the spectrum from sheepish suggestability to obstinate self-satisfaction.