Feedback on Ad Farm Post - Part 2

Easier that that, sit anywhere and click the map button. Then check the box in the upper right corner that says Land For Sale. All those parcels turn yellow. Click on the $ to get the prices. Type in any region name, or just zoom out and browse the continents. That's how I buy land, find the best locations and prices and avoid 16M lots. When you find something interesting, then you click teleport and go have a look. Beats flying all over or reading listings.

The more I think about it, the more I agree with this. *Now*, while they're allowed, people sometimes buy land from a "For Sale" sign. But I have never once done that, and really don't feel like I'm missing out on some great tool for finding land that I want. So, I'm thinking, if there simply were no land for sale signs, people would still find land they want to buy using other features. In fact, I'm willing to bet that they'd find the exact *same* land, with or without for sale signs.

But the current formulation doesn't get rid of all such signs, and that makes it weird. A land dealer could have one sign in a sim, but not one for each parcel that's for sale. So, strangely, zero works, a bigger number works, but a limit of one is a bit problematic.

Probably obviously, the problem is how to allow multiple such things on reasonably sized parcels, and disallow them on dozens of microparcels in a sim, without coming right out and saying that microparcel land dealers are just no longer welcome on the Mainland. We're all dancing around that, but that's what really needs to be said.

It is a land owners right to build a wall, place trees, on their land, obviously they should not allow these items to encroach on another parcel.

I don't think anyone is dancing with glee, if everyone can work together then many of the issues would go away.

Jack there is a real concern here though that a large parcel owners rights may be affected.
Every user should reserve the right to shield themselves from things they don't want to look at.


This is why I would again like to suggest that specific areas are earmarked for advertising, to prevent trouble and widespread disagreements breaking out.

Some advertisers have agreed that the placement of adverts is very important, and many residents including myself would like to ensure that hoardings are not placed in inappropriate places.
As this would be detrimental to all parties involved.

Does that get all of the prices?
I have never used that option on the map I don't know why.
There is something else I learned today

This probably does mean land sale notices are no longer required at all.
I will have to log in and check it out
Thank you

It doesn't show all the prices, so it always pays to go look around before you buy.

I'm guessing we're going to see some very creative terraforming to get "8 m from the surface" to be as high as possible.

The policy specifically allows one for sale sign/ per sim/ per person. So sellers of single parcels will be fine (as long as they dont spin etc). However it will stop larger agents littering a sim with for sale signs (You may want to point that out to Timo, Esther).
And will stop the use of such signs on small plots as an extortion tactic.

I hope you're not right Maggie.. but suspect you are
(but i won't do that)

I may be wrong here but I think Jack covered that.



I think 50 plots between 2 to 4m above surrounding area with 8m high advert sat on top would not be in the spirit of the lindens proposal.
And that advertiser would be asked to remove them.

Again a little clarification would be nice Jack.

Its nice to see you are being proactive Jub Jub

How about 8 meters above sea level? That way there would be no teraforming problem.

Yes instead of "Mainland" we will be calling it "Linden Lab's Spikey Ad Mess" or maybe even "Rosedale's Hair Style Advertising Paradise".

It doesn't matter really. We all saw what happened with traffic. We wanted to be rid of traffic falsification and the mess of zombie alt bots associated with unethical business owners. Instead of resolving the issue in an intelligent and ethical manner we now have traffic AND profile pick payola/abuse. So the residents demanded action against unethical behavior and Linden Lab responded with a doubling of unethical behaviors. Residents demanded the texture UUID grabbing feature be removed to slow down texture hot linker thieves. Linden Lab removed that feature but at the same time did something (I will not discuss) that makes it even easier to automate the theft of every texture in view including sculpties without any non Linden Lab tools. (Yes I explained it to them so they know abut it). So a complaint by the majority again was responded to by making the problem even worse and greatly favoring unethical people.

All that remains to be seen now is how Linden Lab is going to make the problem of extortion and destruction of mainland value worse than it already is.

Eventually those pesky customers will stop blabbering about problems and go away.

Unless, of course, Linden Lab acquires a strong sense of ethics and begins dealing with all of these issues in a responsible and ethical manner.

That's always annoying. Maybe adding to the rules that <= 32m2 parcels have to be either close-to-even with their neighbors or reverted would be good?

I maintain a large network of over 500 information kiosks across the grid. These kiosks are for the benefit of residents looking for art galleries in SL. They are simple rectangular signs with a banner reading "Art Galleries of SL" on top, that when clicked give out a notecard containing a list of art galleries in SL. Each one is (almost always) owned by the property owner of the parcel it is on, none of them are actually owned by me (I just own the server they are all connected to). They do NOT support unsolicited giving of items, the users must click on the kiosk. I also help maintain an even larger network of similar kiosks for FashCon which serves the same purpose but for fashion related stores, again all kiosks are owned by someone else. Kiosks for both networks are available on slexchange for people that want one, so we have little control over who actually has them or where they put them.

The flat display surface of these kiosks contains what could be interpreted as an advertisement (a piece of art for the Galleries of SL kiosks and an official FashCon logo for the FashCon kiosks). Owners of the art gallery kiosks are mostly all members of the Art Gallery Owner's group and owners of the FashCon kiosks are members of the FashCon group. The purpose of the art gallery owner's group is to receive announcements of gallery list updates and discussion. The purpose of FashCon is for participating stores to post announcements about new releases (see http://fashcon.com for more info) and for group members to receive these announcements.

These are NOT what I'd consider to be an "ad farm". The kiosks exist to give out information to people; lists of galleries or fashion stores. The gallery kiosks are even present at some of the Linden welcome areas and help islands by request of LL. I just want to be ABSOLUTELY sure that there isn't some misinterpretation of what these are, or some overzealous abuse reporter that considers them an "ad network" and have them all zapped, which would be an enormous detriment for the art galleries in SL as well as the FashCon fans and member stores. Hopefully the fact that 99% of the kiosks in both cases are owned by DIFFERENT people, but who happen to be in the same group, clearly disqualifies both these networks as "advertising networks" owned by an individual or group.

In addition I sell this networked kiosk system (called Kiosk.net) for anyone to use to display anything they want and give out any items they want and is in wide use by (for example) magazine publishers, like SecondStyle. The typical magazine kiosk usually displays the cover of the latest issue of the magazine, obviously attempting to entice passers-by to click to get an issue. Is that considered "advertising"? I believe in most cases the actual owners of those kiosks is NOT a single person but the land owners that want to distribute those magazines on their parcels. Should my magazine publisher customers be worried about their networks being removed from the grid before they have a chance to defend themselves, which could potentially be a crushing blow to their business? In a large percentage of cases, these kiosk network owners have associated groups for announcements (new magazine issues released, etc.).

>> We will allow no more than 50 advertising locations owned by a single individual, whether personally owned or via groups in which you are a member

Does this mean that if the kiosks are OWNED BY THE GROUP, then there's a problem, but if the kiosks are owned by different individuals that happen to be IN the group, as in the examples above, all is ok? Are these kiosk networks in serious trouble simply because the owners are all in the same groups?

here is what the lindens now tell me in world

I think it is my right to speak freely in the US I have not threatened any one and you Lindens need to wake up and smell the manipulation here.. read all of my AR tickets regarding this abuse before you THREATEN me

19:13] Katt Linden: Hi Vendar, this is Katt Linden. I'm the Linden who moderates the SL Forums. Please review the Forum Guidelines. Personal attacks are not appropriate in the forums. Flaming (posting a message that is intended to incite anger or directly attack a person or persons), ...[is] strongly discouraged." This is your friendly warning, please refrain death threats, however "silly" against individuals or groups in the forums. Thanks, Katt Linden
[19:14] Vendar Beika: I read that and every one agreed with me that is was silly to call that a death threat I would never do that..
[19:14] Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.
[19:16] Vendar Beika: YAY!! Ad Farmers Die part 2

I do hope no one here seriously takes that statement as a death threat ahahahaahahah. ROFLOL

But I do hope LL makes it very very very hard for scumbag residents to run around splitting up land into 16 meter lots putting up advertising and then posting these lots for sale at OUTRAGEOUS prices ... every one has already left the mainland for the most part I to am leaving... too bad I am getting 10Cents on the Linden dollar for my mainland

Die Ad framers !!! simply means the end of a very unpleasant chapter in the metaverse of SL where a small amount of residents abused, manipulated and extorted the rest of the population

Then LL was going to join in on it and licence it and the residents STOOD UP to be heard

We will not go quietly into the night
We will not allow ad farmers to make our land worthless
We will not pay LL for crappie service

They seem to be listening only time will tell but all of my main land is for sale cheap
__________________
Vendar Beika Anima
[19:16] Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.

No, not 100% legal, since that is what this is all about. 100% legal would mean you could advertise however or wherever you want, no matter what. This may have been the case in the past, but now all that is changing. So, no, it's no longer "100% legal".



I would hope so. Parasitic advertising is extremely offensive and harassing. While what you say may be true, the sad part is that there are so few apparent "legitimate advertisers", and so many "illegitimate" ones.



Besides the obvious "newbie experience" reference from someone else above, here's another common situation where your notion doesn't apply:

When I first bought land in my region, almost 2 years ago there were NO ads in it, outside of the for sale signs for the plots. NONE. I lived there happily for about 6 months before the first neighbor sold his land and some SFB bought it and carved it into a checkerboard next to me. My mate at the time erected a huge prim wall to block out the encroaching, flashing, spinning, floating, garish adspam that we were subjected to. ALL of the plots were set to ridiculous prices, anywhere from L$1000 and up. Then the land behind me was sold, and another one cropped up. By January of this year, I had SIX separate plots within 50m of my plot that had been carved up and spammed in a similar way.

So, no, I didn't buy into the middle of adfarms, adfarms moved in around ME. What is telling is as soon as I started buying up some of the larger normal-priced plots and building my mall, the adfarmer activity in my sim DOUBLED. There were ads and plots being cut up all around me. The well-known adfarmers were always in my sim looking to buy up anything they could lay their hands on near me. I got harassing IMs from several of them. A few without solicitation; most after I made COURTEOUS and FAIR offers to buy the land, where I KNOW I was offering them more for it than it cost, because I had personally monitored the plot for-sale prices or talked with my neighbors prior or after the fact.

I know I am not alone in this situation. MANY people have owned mainland for years as well, and have had this blight grow in around them, too.



I DO blame the system, because the FAILURE of said SYSTEM is why we have what we have today. With no management or really, care, parasites moved in and set up shop. It was the Wild West, where there was little law, and what law existed was either not enforced or enforced spottily.

In the Wild West, when the Law failed the Citizens, they took the law into their own hands, because that was the only real law. You either protect your own, or you lose it and them.

As for forming a "vigilante group", it was a natural reaction to the total lack of law and enforcement which LL incompetently allowed to take root. When the "government" fails the people, the people have to resort to extreme measures to protect themselves, and to replace the government. Sometimes that is through peaceful petition. Sometimes it is through revolutionary action. It sucks, but human beings prove time and time again that the core essence of freedom has to constant be defended through the strictest and most severe forms of vigilance.

Of course, everyone can choose their path to cope with the problem. Some folks said "screw it" and quit SL altogether, never to return. Some folks just dropped tier. Some folks just remain blissfully ignorant of the problem, because it hasn't directly affected them yet. Still more folks peaceably resist and petition, and then a significant number choose to take action.

I'm usually a fairly peaceful Dragon, but faced with the uncalled-for and repeated harassment, as well as being directly attacked and challenged by the parasites, well, let's just say they threw down the gauntlet. As a result, I picked it up and am going to fight until each and every one of them becomes nothing more than an annoying memory. Or potentially, until I get banned by LL for fighting for what I believe in.



We've already been over this. You consider it 100% legal and allowed by LL. Well, it isn't anymore. I consider it harassing and object to how it is done.

I have even said repeatedly that I am a business owner in both RL and SL, and I understand and support the need for advertising. The difference is that I DON'T support many methods of how it is done. Spam email, for example, is the most evil form of advertising known. My email mailboxes don't get read hardly at all because no matter what I do, no matter how many accounts I create, I ALWAYS get on some waste of flesh's spam list somewhere, and get THOUSANDS of pieces of crap per week. Cancel another account and start another one? After the 100th time, email just isn't worth it anymore. I see outdoor microparcel advertising in SL as being nothing more than the Virtual World equivalent of email spam. Advertisers contribute nothing to the regions they put their "ads" in, but take away business and customer attention. Just like in RL, it should be HEAVILY regulated or outright outlawed entirely. Many of those who use this parasitic advertising method use the same justifications for their visual spam that email spammers use to justify their abuse of the global email communications system. "I pay for my servers and bandwidth!" "I pay for my land!" It's the same dance; it's just a different tune.

Now, I know we aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this subject, and that is fine. If you want adspam in your sim, next to your home or business, that's fine. I don't have to come there. However, if it ruins my SL experience to have to see that crap day-in and day-out, at MY home or business, why should I have to? Why should *I*, someone who has been in the region longer than ANY adfarmer, be forced to move? Why should any real landowner's rights be trumped by a parasitic advertiser's rights? Don't people realize that, if I and my neighbors tear up our homes/business/attractions and leave, there WON'T be anyone coming to our region to even see those ads??? That's what really blows my mind when people try to justify this advertising model. They get so wrapped up in rights and legality, that they totally lose sight of the underlying foundational common sense considerations which make it all possible to begin with.

..and that is precisely why it has to be stopped. Because people just won't ever let the simple, gentle wisdom of courtesy and common sense prevail.

PS - This and all my other posts in reply to you specifically, Shimada, is not intended to make you out to be one of these kinds of people that I am talking about. I am debating principles with you, not actions. I am well aware and I DO appreciate that YOU care about people's issues with your chosen advertising methods. You've shown consideration, but you are nearly unique in that. My only point I would stress to you is the notion that the advertising model itself is not sustainable and only serves to give you a profit bump solely at the expense of overgrazing the commons. I'm not intending insult or intimate that you are even remotely a "bad guy". I simply maintain that the *model* itself is a broken one, I think it is a mistake to use it, and I think LL has been horribly lax in their stewardship of the mainland to allow it to become as entrenched as it has, regardless of all the wheres or whys of its existence and how it is used.

Sasun. As the proposed rules are based on ownership of the locations, I don't think your gallery kiosks are at risk.

The group question is more difficult. I think you should make a specific enquiry, maybe via a support ticket or at Jack's Office Hours, about your kiosk customers group (if I have interpreted that correctly). I am sure Jack's statement about groups was directed it against deliberate use of groups to circumvent the 50 plot restriction on individuals. Your case does not constitute such an evasion, but clarification would be nice to set your mind at rest.

trust me when I say I have very little reason to come to Ven's defence here .. BUT for LL to make such a fuss about what is clearly NOT a death threat aimed at any indivitual is really poor

The Ad farm concept has has ruined alot of the mainland if they put as much effort into dealing with THAT larger problem as they do making a fuss over nothing ....

come on LL get your act together

As long as the kiosks are inside the venues they are placed, only soliciting visitors of that venue, then you (should) have little to worry about. However, if someone goes around sticking them on microparcels, or on the outside of businesses facing their neighbors, I would be concerned.

While you have little control over where people place them, I would suggest using a system where you can "turn off" the terminals for anyone violating your or LL' policies regarding their placement. That's probably the most responsible thing you can do as the network operator, since those terminals do represent your network, regardless of who owns them.

Talarus...how many ad plots have your groups signs on them? You know the signs i mean - the ones that advertise your groups opinions.

Linden act like the SS from Hitler when manipulated
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendar Beika
YAY!! Ad Farmers Die part 2


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From the lil that I have read on this thread, this is a very touchy and a bit complicated issue. I do agree that ad farmers should be perhaps regulated somehow as to they are hurting hard working business owners. Those are my 2 cents.

On a personal note now: I have known Vendar Beika for quite a while now and he's one of the very FEW people in SL that I can honestly trust, not only in SL but in RL as well. He is not the kind of person to go around threatening people. Not his style and it's not in his character to do so. I stand by the previous statement on this forum and wherever it's needed. He is a professional, hard working business owner and great builder.

Ravin Slade

Funny suggestion, that. When I spoke to a "neighbor" (who shall remain nameless we all know and hate the nasty neon green adboards she throws out indiscriminately) about one of her adboards she dialled up the obnoxious factor instead of reducing it.

I've identified more than 100 of her installations. I plan to AR every f*cking one of them come midnight-oh-one on 1st October.

I don't know what you are talking about. "My group" related to adfarming is Archaean Designs Land Recovery Project. I have no ad plots. I have nothing but 3 large Ad Zoo information kiosk BUILDINGS in the middle of 1024+sqm plots with trees and other structures around them, peacefully blending in with the surrounding neighbors' lands and builds.

Now, if you are referring to the Ad Zoo, I also know of no "ad plots". Timo doesn't buy adplots and put up signs. He HAS put up the same information booth buildings as I have (since he had them made by the very talented Tal Chernov) on his 512+sqm plots for sale all over the grid.

Why did he do that, you ask? Because our motivation is to put a STOP to this Blight. To inform people about it, and to get their support to get it changed. To let them know that they DON'T have to put up with the harassment, extortion, and spam any more. To offer them support in their option to resist it, rather than just giving up, leaving SL, the mainland, or paying the extortion prices.

As for any other group or organization who has taken upon themselves to fight the Blight, that's their call. We're not endorsing or condemning anyone who is doing what they believe they have to in order to fight it. I personally don't necessarily agree with some of the past methods chosen. In fact, I didn't have a single Arbor probe or Landmine on any of my land until about 2.5 months ago. That's when I said "to hell with it" because Jack had become a broken record with the constant "nothing new, but we're still talking about it" response, and I went ahead and deployed them. I didn't want to do it, but I was being given no choice in the matter except bow to the "shut up and pay the extortion tax", "move", "leave SL", or my recent favourite "I will **** your SL until you suicide". Yeah, that one really is going to motivate me.

Regardless of what you think, I PROMISE YOU, that any "ad plots" or any other trappings related to fighting this Blight will GO AWAY the instant the Blight does. I have ALREADY removed my landmines and probes from all my plots. All adfarmers are removed from my ban lists. I have removed all my cages and other trappings related to informing people about the abuse. All in anticipation of this policy being "The One" which puts an end to all the abuse and grief once and for all. However, the very INSTANT it appears that this all is nothing more than just another batch of smoke attempting to be blown up my tailhole, it all goes back up, and the fight continues.

Unfortunately, the adfarmers can't say the same thing in return, because they ARE the problem, not the response to the problem. That's the difference between how "we" use our land, and how they use theirs.

Gratification, no.

Lulz, fo sho.

Good to hear Talarus...like you it seems, i have chosen the pro-active path too...
however you must expect there will be some who seek to dodge around the rules for a while at least...but i hope, like you do, that those extremists will be quickly curtailed.
I hope you will give the Lindens some time to adjust everyones attitudes before reverting - cause it seems to me that a lot of the issues have been as a result of two groups of people warring on each other. I do admit the anti-ad group may have not started it - and ya'll were very frustrated, but sticking up ban lines to stop others who put up ban lines does seem (to me at least) rather pointless.
IF this policy works and all forms of harassment are stopped - then the "high price for ad blocks" people will have no option but to simply leave blank land for sale. They will be stubborn, but eventually will get impatient and start dropping prices when their turnover plummets. (I got 3 blocks outside my shops i am crossing my fingers for... at $15k even i can't justify the spend)

I can see on Oct 1st the landscape of SL will start to look very different.