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I came here because SL DID NOT have voice

Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
06-28-2007 22:41
From: Kascha Matova

Please forgive me for saying that the use of your existence as a justification for invalidating the opinions of people against voice is ridiculous on its face because I haven't heard a single sight-impaired, typing incapable, or completely illiterate SL user weigh in. On anything. In-forum or in-world. Ever. If one ever does, I will be first in line to listen.


Actually, I can have a person IN SL come tell you just how difficult it is for him to keep up with Text Chat. Not because he CANT read. He cant read FAST enough.

There are varying degrees of literacy & impairments. The totally blind, Totally unable to type wouldnt be here.

Being Dyslexic doesnt mean your a total illiterate Noob.

What about someone who had a stroke? Amputees? Cerebral Palsy? Multiple Sclerosis? Parkinsons? ARTHRITIS?? Or any other ailment that Impairs (not disables entirely) the use of limbs and eyesight?

In one of the Secondcast podcasts, I forget which one, there was a mention of a man who's son helped him use the keyboard since he was unable to do it fast enough for text chat due to a disability. The father controlled the Avatar but the son did the talking for him.

So what you're saying basically is, anyone with the slightest disability other than Deafness doesnt belong here??
Klaus Ayres
Rambling Runabout
Join date: 3 Jan 2007
Posts: 43
06-29-2007 05:15
From: Tod69 Talamasca
Actually, I can have a person IN SL come tell you just how difficult it is for him to keep up with Text Chat. Not because he CANT read. He cant read FAST enough.


Usually when I'm chatting, it means I don't care about the visual. I open up the History window and expand it to cover the screen. That way I can scroll up or down to see what text I've missed, helps me keep up with a fast moving conversations much easier then the default method.

And yes, some people may end up being alienated or even excluded from Second Life because it's impossible or simply impractical to address every conceivable disability.
bladyblue Bommerang
Premium Account
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 646
06-29-2007 05:26
Voice came to our island last week. It is a great help. We turn it on in the training room and the office parcels only. Now the new staff have a more rounded training experience and people seeking services can really discuss their business needs. For educational and business purposes voice is an asset.

I am really impressed with it when we sit in our virtual meeting area and 7 countries are represented in live time.
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Draco18s Majestic
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2,744
06-29-2007 05:32
From: Klaus Ayres
Usually when I'm chatting, it means I don't care about the visual. I open up the History window and expand it to cover the screen. That way I can scroll up or down to see what text I've missed, helps me keep up with a fast moving conversations much easier then the default method.


Ok, so voicers can keep up with text if they want to, but texters can in no feasible way without enabling voice keep up with voice.

So the lazy people who don't want to type won't communicate with texters any farther than a spoken "hello?" and a texted "plz vois."
Klaus Ayres
Rambling Runabout
Join date: 3 Jan 2007
Posts: 43
06-29-2007 07:23
From: Draco18s Majestic
Ok, so voicers can keep up with text if they want to, but texters can in no feasible way without enabling voice keep up with voice.



Given that I migrated with a group of friends from fantasy themed text games like Legend of the Green Dragon, it's totally fine with us if voicers don't wish to interact. We have for years been using text as are interface and method of communicating and have no intention at this point to alter our ways.

I'm sure for many voice is welcome improvement, however if you come visit us and the multitude of those who role play as we do, voicers will find themselves a singular minority, unable to communicate with people around them.

Personally, I have stated before, I have no problem with voice. I do however see it as a divisive tool and not a uniting feature. People already discriminate based on the type of avatar you use, your lifestyle choices, now we'll have one more reason to discriminate. It will be voicers versus non voicers, SL is looking like the RL more and more.
Klaus Ayres
Rambling Runabout
Join date: 3 Jan 2007
Posts: 43
06-29-2007 07:54
From: bladyblue Bommerang
For educational and business purposes voice is an asset.


My sentiments exactly.

The reason I say I'm accepting of voice is I can see the many benefits of voice for corporations, businesses and educationally institutions.

However, I do not consider corporations, businesses and educational institutions, who have a presence in Second Life, true Second Lifers. Second Life means to me an alternative life. A pocket protector geek, can be a blinged out thug, paraplegic, a graceful dancer, burn victim, a beautiful vixen, Second Life is about altering your reality, not extending your reality it into a virtual world.

In my humble opinion of course - Klaus
Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
06-29-2007 07:58
From: Klaus Ayres

Personally, I have stated before, I have no problem with voice. I do however see it as a divisive tool and not a uniting feature. People already discriminate based on the type of avatar you use, your lifestyle choices, now we'll have one more reason to discriminate. It will be voicers versus non voicers, SL is looking like the RL more and more.


Well thats not a problem of Second Life. Thats a problem with People in general. There can never be a person who likes everything and everybody. Totally impossible.

You come to SL as "whatever you want to be" but you still bring your RL mindset, whether good or bad.
Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
06-29-2007 07:58
It will be divisive, but no more than everything else that divides us as you said. We've brought them all, from appearance, to nationality, to lifestyle to "creative contribution" and economic classes. All you can hope is as we choose whether we use this feature or not that we respect the decision of those who choose the opposite, go about our business.
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.

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Klaus Ayres
Rambling Runabout
Join date: 3 Jan 2007
Posts: 43
06-29-2007 08:26
I wasn't imply that Linden Labs was creating a tool that would suddenly cause people to discriminate, simply providing people one more reason to discriminate. I agree, people will discriminate regardless, I am highly discriminatory.

Humans who walk into my sandbox can be expect to be treated with disdain and contempt, it's an artifice of role playing a traditional Drow. Come into our area and ask us, even politely to use voice, and we'll tell you to f-off without equivocation.

Read my posts and I think you'll gather I'm not a “We are the world” kind of guy. I honestly don't care who feels alienated because of voice or lack of voice. I'm engaging in the debate and offering view points and opinions.

In the end, I will do as I wish regardless of the lemming factor, and if people have a problem with that they can go f-themselves.
Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
06-29-2007 08:39
That was more of a general comment. I'm pretty much of the same mind as you on the subject.
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.

http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com
Kascha Matova
Bus Bench Supermodel
Join date: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 342
06-29-2007 10:33
From: Tod69 Talamasca
Actually, I can have a person IN SL come tell you just how difficult it is for him to keep up with Text Chat. Not because he CANT read. He cant read FAST enough.

There are varying degrees of literacy & impairments. The totally blind, Totally unable to type wouldnt be here.

Being Dyslexic doesnt mean your a total illiterate Noob.

What about someone who had a stroke? Amputees? Cerebral Palsy? Multiple Sclerosis? Parkinsons? ARTHRITIS?? Or any other ailment that Impairs (not disables entirely) the use of limbs and eyesight?

In one of the Secondcast podcasts, I forget which one, there was a mention of a man who's son helped him use the keyboard since he was unable to do it fast enough for text chat due to a disability. The father controlled the Avatar but the son did the talking for him.

So what you're saying basically is, anyone with the slightest disability other than Deafness doesnt belong here??


No that's not what I'm saying at all...

I am happy to see everybody; I'm not a person who will be saying who doesn't belong anywhere. What I am saying is that people tend to engage in activities for recreation that they will actually enjoy because they can. They don't generally gravitate towards activities that they are physically or mentally unable to perform without difficulty.

I guess to me it's like saying the NFL should start allowing kickers to throw the ball through for field goals because what about the guys who might be kickers in the league without feet. How many people without feet would you expect to be trying out as kickers, and then complaining that kicking with their feet is their only option?

Whenever I mention this, people try to force me into a box where I can't express that opinion without it automatically meaning that I'm saying who needs to be here. I don't see why it's so wrong to expect that people who have problems typing, for whatever reason, would not come running to sign up for a program where communication is entirely based on typing. Especially when there are alternatives.

The only point I was making regarding this is that the system we have right now has been good enough and effective enough as is. The majority of people here more than likely feel on equal footing when trying to communicate. I don't agree with assing out that majority for corporate interests and let's face it, lining pockets, and then using what I consider a mythological group of people who, join and then remain in a text-based world despite these tremendous difficulties in communication, as a reason to ignore tons of others who don't welcome the changes.

I have been very upfront in saying that if the segment of the population that has these problems is larger than I think, I will be the first to offer my ear and attention. I am not being supercilious when I say this. I honestly am not aware of their numbers.
Kascha Matova
Bus Bench Supermodel
Join date: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 342
06-29-2007 10:43
From: Tod69 Talamasca
Well thats not a problem of Second Life. Thats a problem with People in general. There can never be a person who likes everything and everybody. Totally impossible.

You come to SL as "whatever you want to be" but you still bring your RL mindset, whether good or bad.



Yes that's true. And since it is, why not refrain from providing yet another method for that mindset to gain ascendancy?

Sort of like saying "Well some people are just gonna want to shoot others, but it's not Smith and Wesson's fault, or Walmart's. Speaking of guns, we've just rolled out a new model that fires faster than ever and we put it right up front!"

SL, RL...with every passing day the differences become harder to see...
Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
06-29-2007 19:19
From: Kascha Matova
Yes that's true. And since it is, why not refrain from providing yet another method for that mindset to gain ascendancy?

Sort of like saying "Well some people are just gonna want to shoot others, but it's not Smith and Wesson's fault, or Walmart's. Speaking of guns, we've just rolled out a new model that fires faster than ever and we put it right up front!"

SL, RL...with every passing day the differences become harder to see...


Wow! Someone has some issues? Liberal, are we?

So- while you are against "discrimination" you want to discriminate against voice? LOL!!! And dont pull that "I discriminate against no one" stuff. It's totally impossible to Like/Love everybody.

And the Gun analogy sucks. Try again. Or are you one of those folks that sue McDonalds because you spilled hot coffee in your lap?

If you have trouble differentiating between a bunch of Pixels and a bunch of people, Voice is the least of your problems. ;)

Like I was told many many years ago "Life's a bitch! Suck it up & deal with it".
bladyblue Bommerang
Premium Account
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 646
06-29-2007 20:45
From: Klaus Ayres
I do not consider corporations, businesses and educational institutions, who have a presence in Second Life, true Second Lifers. Second Life means to me an alternative life. A pocket protector geek, can be a blinged out thug, paraplegic, a graceful dancer, burn victim, a beautiful vixen, Second Life is about altering your reality, not extending your reality it into a virtual world.

In my humble opinion of course - Klaus

Of course these entities are 'true' Second Lifers. Electric Sheep started because of Second Life. The same can be said of the Dreamland Corporation. Virtual corporations developed in a virtual environment. I wasn't about to fly all over the world and recruit Germans, Swedes and Brazilians to become apart of my virtual business group. Second Life allowed us to create these alternate lives and work together without every actually meeting.

And when the work day is over we get out our bling and dance.
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Broken Xeno
~Fething Alt~
Join date: 9 Mar 2007
Posts: 632
06-29-2007 21:21
If someone is using Second Life, they are a second lifer. Everyone has their own reasons for using this program. Not everyone is in Second Life to build, or to make their avatar look beautiful, or to roleplay, or buy and sell land, or make and sell things, or even to grief and stand around welcome areas all day long. We all have different reasons for being here, and we're all second lifers =)

I've been using voice a lot lately, though with just one person. I have yet to actively engage myself in conversations with strangers over voice. However, I have seen a lot of people using it, in various areas, to just talk. But more people are still simply just typing to speak to one another. I personally still prefer simply typing to communicate, when it comes to people whose names aren't my girlfriends name, lol. Minds ability to process speech is quite different when you write by hand, type, and actually speak. I process words better when I am typing, so for the most part, I'll stick to it.

And while I enjoy voice, and using voice with her, and will continue to do so for as long as we're apart and any time we're apart, I did have one overall complaint about it.

It lags me the hell out sometimes, lol.
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Klaus Ayres
Rambling Runabout
Join date: 3 Jan 2007
Posts: 43
06-29-2007 23:31
From: bladyblue Bommerang
Of course these entities are 'true' Second Lifers. Electric Sheep started because of Second Life.


From: Klaus Ayres
Second Life is about altering your reality, not extending your reality into a virtual world.


If you created a business in Second Life, which didn't exist outside of Second Life, then you aren't extending your reality, you're creating a new reality, the quintessence of Second Life. A major computer manufacturer being in Second Life is an extension of their market into a virtual realm.

In the end though, it's an opinion based on my own personal and potentially discriminatory, definition of Second Life. You're welcome to define Second Life your way, I'll define it my way.
Kascha Matova
Bus Bench Supermodel
Join date: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 342
07-02-2007 11:03
From: Tod69 Talamasca
Wow! Someone has some issues? Liberal, are we?



If it makes things easier for you believing that, go ahead.

From: Tod69 Talamasca
So- while you are against "discrimination" you want to discriminate against voice? LOL!!! And dont pull that "I discriminate against no one" stuff. It's totally impossible to Like/Love everybody.


So, in what other areas do you assume people have limitations based on the fact that you do? Are you really so lazy and self absorbed that you actually can't conceive of other people being different than you are? And as far as discriminating against voice is concerned, why don't you run that crap on anyone else who has expressed reservations about it? Which dictionary did you read that made you believe that liking or disliking anything personally was a requisite of discrimination, such that one could not exist without the other? Is that the same book that leads you to tag everyone with an opinion as "discriminators"? Are you sure you read the book right side up?

From: Tod69 Talamasca
And the Gun analogy sucks. Try again. Or are you one of those folks that sue McDonalds because you spilled hot coffee in your lap?


Was typing the word "sucks" worth showing that you don't have a clue how to refute the truth of my statement? How about your witty McDonalds line? It's soooo funny that that was the line you thought would bring the house down.

From: Tod69 Talamasca
If you have trouble differentiating between a bunch of Pixels and a bunch of people, Voice is the least of your problems. ;)


Now you're just talking to hear yourself talk. What a coincidence given your stance on voice. Please Tod, miss me with the rest of your poppycock psychoanalysis. Your attempts to sound hip and "with it" are failing with a fury that is breathtaking to behold. Quit while you're ahead.

From: Tod69 Talamasca
Like I was told many many years ago "Life's a bitch! Suck it up & deal with it".


And still more of the trendy jiffy-pop lines the likes of "think out of the box", and "just do it". Collect the whole set!

/me brushes the lint off one shoulder.

Pfft.
shiney Sprocket
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 254
07-02-2007 11:38
Please, LindenLabs! Don't add any features that certain select groups of people may not be able to use. No matter how much others want them.

Also, LL, please remember that SecondLife is whatever I think it is, not whatever you designed it to be. You must then conform the environment to my opinion of what the world should be... Ok?

KTHX!


Tod69 Talamasca said "Life's a bitch! Suck it up & deal with it".

But neglects to note that life is what you make of it, so if life is a bitch, what does that say about you?
Leonisis Giha
Registered User
Join date: 29 Jun 2007
Posts: 2
07-02-2007 13:36
From: Klaus Ayres
My sentiments exactly.

Second Life is about altering your reality, not extending your reality it into a virtual world.


From: Ilianexsi Sojourner


call me a sentimental old goofball, but I think using voice tends to break the illusion that we've established here, if that makes sense. I don't want to add another layer of reality to SL, I want to keep it as separate from reality as possible.



So voice will help big business and 'education', that means it's coming, like it or not.

I've only just discovered second life and found it real enough to be convincing but far enough from reality to be fun and enjoyable. Looks like I've discovered it too late, it's all gonna change, and not for the best...in my humble opinion.
Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
07-02-2007 15:48
From: shiney Sprocket


Tod69 Talamasca said "Life's a bitch! Suck it up & deal with it".

But neglects to note that life is what you make of it, so if life is a bitch, what does that say about you?


It says I'm an average Joe born without the silverspoon in my mouth. Who're you? Paris Hilton?
shiney Sprocket
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 254
07-02-2007 17:37
From: Tod69 Talamasca
It says I'm an average Joe born without the silverspoon in my mouth. Who're you? Paris Hilton?


I'm an average Joe who has faced adversity throughout his life but never once stopped to blame it on life itself and say life is a bitch. It isn't. Life is easy, expectations are a bitch.

Again, Life is what you make of it. If life is a bitch, change the way you live it.
Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
07-03-2007 00:56
From: shiney Sprocket
I'm an average Joe who has faced adversity throughout his life but never once stopped to blame it on life itself and say life is a bitch. It isn't. Life is easy, expectations are a bitch.

Again, Life is what you make of it. If life is a bitch, change the way you live it.


Didnt say I was some whiney ass forum bitch who sees the world thru rose-colored glasses expecting Uncle Sam to hand me some Food Stamps & a check, I'd rather work for a living. Not some whiner who complains when a great product adds another feature either. You get over it & deal with it. Dont like it? Go elsewhere!

Life? Easy? LOL! So- its easy to live? Not worry about wars, diseases, death, and just plain ol' survival? Must be a nice bubble you live in. And yes, the expectations of most people are quickly shot down. I came to SL with the expectation of something that'll grow & continue to add new features. Instead I find a lot of people whining everytime one gets added.

Learn to enjoy what you have, what you can get. Feels good to work for what you get.

Sorry to hurt your Forum Machismo there, SHiny, but Life is a bitch & I worked for every thing I got & get. And I got it good.;)
Mandy Carbenell
Recent Item
Join date: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 847
07-03-2007 01:02
From: Tod69 Talamasca
Didnt say I was some whiney ass forum bitch who sees the world thru rose-colored glasses expecting Uncle Sam to hand me some Food Stamps & a check, I'd rather work for a living. Not some whiner who complains when a great product adds another feature either. You get over it & deal with it. Dont like it? Go elsewhere!

Life? Easy? LOL! So- its easy to live? Not worry about wars, diseases, death, and just plain ol' survival? Must be a nice bubble you live in. And yes, the expectations of most people are quickly shot down. I came to SL with the expectation of something that'll grow & continue to add new features. Instead I find a lot of people whining everytime one gets added.

Learn to enjoy what you have, what you can get. Feels good to work for what you get.

Sorry to hurt your Forum Machismo there, SHiny, but Life is a bitch & I worked for every thing I got & get. And I got it good.;)


Hear hear!

Mandy C
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Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
07-03-2007 01:21
From: Kascha Matova
If it makes things easier for you believing that, go ahead.
/me brushes the lint off one shoulder.

Pfft.


Well Mr/Ms SmartyPants... Why dont you create your own lil' Virtual World if your so smart in the way of things?

I just like arguing with people who whine about something they have absolutely no control over & still think they do!!! :D

I dont care if they add voice or not! Doesnt affect me in any way!!
moose Houston
Registered User
Join date: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 40
07-05-2007 10:17
I see a great benefit to voice already "segregation" it will take all you negative, anal, know-it-all, morons, sexual deviants and put you in you're "voice excluded sims" and this way the rest of us "so called normal people" (the rest of us who are here to have fun, meet people, real people not ex football players pretending to be pixies, real down to earth people) can avoid you like a bad case of diarrhea. your the only people in the world who would think voice shouldn't be in a 3d virtual world. you should get together and send your script to sci-fi " the deaf mute text chatters from mars" in the movie you see " your group" walking around on earth, wearing lil text screens above your heads so when you all type on your lil text pads the people of earth can understand you. LOL i mean get real !! theres more to life than RP and SL wasn't designed for RP it was designed for exploration of our imagination but never said it was limited to Rper ex-football players Rping a pixie LOL i read this whole post page 1 to last and i have to tell you the humor of it is endless. already a group of you who want to hide the fact you pretend to be a slender woman with BOOBS exploring your warped idea of sexuality are looking for voice changers!!! HA! step up have a pair! in real life when you want to be a woman you have to squeeze your pair and do your best while dressed up in pantyhose and fake boobs to make your voice sound feminine LOL But all humor aside don't voice, don't participate, but for god sake stop whining about it! voice and sound belong to 3d virtually, why SL didn't put it in back when they started, when the advent of amazing voice technology * ie (firetalk for one) was around years be4 SL started ( onlivetravler another) is beyond me.
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