As You Like It - Men Becoming Women

First as woman I don't want to be dominant, I want equality.... and that equality is still a goal that isn't reached in too many way.
I work in the business world... and there is so clear that equality for woman is not even close.
Sorry to blow your dream. Your "train" hasn't left the station yet.

Morwen

Are you kidding, you must be a very masculine woman if you think the only difference is physical.

Men and women are very different, there's plenty of research to back that up. google it.

Pity the poor basement.

The train is coming but I didnt say it had arrived. We've a long way to go - that is obvious even by reading this forum thread; there's been derailing by frivolous comments on an issue that I think has consequences for the sl world in general. A person on this thread has told me I take things too seriously and that sl is just a game. Being "serious" in real has paid off for me; being serious in sl means I feel comfortable in my avatar "skin". SL has a role that can be played (albeit with limitations and "off-world" prejudices) in our real technological society. It is incumbent upon us to speak on issues in forums such as this and not be bullied or "shouted down."

In the real world we can assume much about our work colleagues and partners, but in sl we cant be so sure. My sl partner and I discussed this and, since he is an intellectual and a sensitive man who is "switched on" to equality in the workforce and in societal roles, I have learnt much from dialogues with him. My career is focussed on teh arts and I recognize that even in this most "generous" of fields much work still has to be done for equality to permeate the stratas of creativity.

Obviously men have much to learn from women (and vice versa). They have nothing to fear from us - we have equally high expectations and we face the world by the side of men NOT from polar opposites. What still astounds me (as possibly younger than yourself?) is that so many battles that appear to have been won by my mum and gran and YOUR mum and gran must still be fought. That glass ceiling is sometimes bullet-proof.

I Am Woman

-Artist: Helen Reddy from "Helen Reddy's Greatest Hits": EMI ST 11467
-peak Billboard position # 1 for 1 week in 1972
-Words and Music by Helen Reddy and Ray Burton


I am woman, hear me roar
In numbers too big to ignore
And I know too much to go back an' pretend
'cause I've heard it all before
And I've been down there on the floor
No one's ever gonna keep me down again

CHORUS
Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to, I can do anything
I am strong (strong)
I am invincible (invincible)
I am woman

You can bend but never break me
'cause it only serves to make me
More determined to achieve my final goal
And I come back even stronger
Not a novice any longer
'cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul

CHORUS

I am woman watch me grow
See me standing toe to toe
As I spread my lovin' arms across the land
But I'm still an embryo
With a long long way to go
Until I make my brother understand

Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to I can face anything
I am strong (strong)
I am invincible (invincible)
I am woman
Oh, I am woman
I am invincible
I am strong

FADE
I am woman
I am invincible
I am strong
I am woman

And young female vocalists and writers are expressing all these sentiments and opinions today

Deviant? Okay, let's get married and consummate our marriage with deviant sexual intercourse.

And gay marriage does not exist, has never existed when English dictionaries were written. The marriage laws were and still are written for one man and one woman.

If you want to play the what if game, what if they change the wording to coitus?

Btw, I don't want to play a what if game with you. It's pointless and my posts still stand if you'd like to re-read them.

Brenda, you seem like a nice person to talk too. Actually, to put it more directly propostion 8 stated that "California's State Constitution will state that marriage is between one man and one woman only." Vote yes or no for that basically. The majority voted yes. But California has voted for this already in the 90's. So two times California has voted on the measure.

Another reason I didn't state why I voted that California's state constitution should say that is because of something I cannot reconcile myself with which is that the institution of marriage as being between one man and one woman belongs to the Christian churches. We have separation of Church and State. I feel that calling a same sex union a marriage infringes upon the Christian's churches right of freedom of religion. I don't think anyone should change someone's religion or religious Bible or other religious book because they are left out. I do try my best to put the shoe on the other foot. I would never feel I had the right to change the Buddist religion or the Muslim religion or any other established religion. Not to mention that the Christian churches could privatize the word "marriage" and what it constitutes as it does in my opinion belong to them.

I don't think Mormon's had anything to do with it. California is not a hugely Mormon state. Each voter voted, and California has voted on this twice already.

I feel since the institution of marriage and the word marriage belongs to the Christian religions, that a compromise is the best for all. I see nothing wrong with same sex unions as being so tough a compromise? You can still call each other spouses and have all the same benefits, etc. Why does it have to be called marriage for you to be happy if you legally partnered in a union with your spouse or your love companion? Heterosexuals call themselves companions or partners too. Being called a companion or partner or bf, gf doesn't matter. And may or we may not be legally married but we are not excluded from hospitals? At least it hasn't happened to me yet. One's bf/gf is allowed to see you in the hospital, though husband's or wife's do have easier rights and access. Keeping anyone's partner from their partner in a hospital is so wrong! If anyone ask "who are you", simply say "I'm the better half, honey" and a walk away. You can show them your ring if you'd like. haha!

I think if any state is going to keep you from seeing your partner and your children in the hospital that you should move from that state, or at least get you and your children protected until this is decided even if you have to move to another state. We would love ya in California, but hospitals here are cramped. California needs to solve it's health crisis, but in the meantime, you are, your spouse, your family and your children are welcome here! It's not a bed of roses right now, but we can make things better, eventually. Oh yes and in California there is no discrimination of gays or lesbians in the health work force or any work force for that matter. But we need to make the health care better here in California, so if you have that skill, come on down! However, you're welcome here for a multiple of jobs and legal domestic partnering until this gets solved. Life is not perfect. This is what the vote came out too after California debated this issues for years!

Well probably me, but that's a physical trait for Kangaroo body proportions

In 36 years things it seems like things have moved on - it certainly seems as if the braggadocio of the Antipodean opportunist never actually materialised if Beyonce's attitude is anything to go by . . .

"If I Were A Boy"


If I were a boy
Even just for a day
I’d roll outta bed in the morning
And throw on what I wanted then go
Drink beer with the guys
And chase after girls
I’d kick it with who I wanted
And I’d never get confronted for it.
Cause they’d stick up for me.

[Chorus]
If I were a boy
I think I could understand
How it feels to love a girl
I swear I’d be a better man.
I’d listen to her
Cause I know how it hurts
When you lose the one you wanted
Cause he’s taken you for granted
And everything you had got destroyed

If I were a boy
I could turn off my phone
Tell everyone it’s broken
So they’d think that I was sleepin’ alone
I’d put myself first
And make the rules as I go
Cause I know that she’d be faithful
Waitin’ for me to come home (to come home)

(Chorus)

It’s a little too late for you to come back
Say its just a mistake
Think I’d forgive you like that
If you thought I would wait for you
You thought wrong

(Chorus)

But you’re just a boy
You don’t understand
Yeah you don’t understand
How it feels to love a girl someday
You wish you were a better man
You don’t listen to her
You don’t care how it hurts
Until you lose the one you wanted
Cause you’ve taken her for granted
And everything you have got destroyed
But you’re just a boy


Sounds to me as if she *wants* to be a boy . . .

Pep (I don't blame her)

And what did you do? Exactly what I said you would. Brava. The game wasn't pointed at you, you can't debate, let alone be any fun in a "what if" game.

Your posts do still stand, and they're still as wrong as they were when you wrote them. Take care!

I am a woman, but i'm not all that fussed about getting further equal rights for women. The way I see it there's a lot greater injustices in the world than sexism which is now a mostly muted prejudice with very small teath.

If that meens that as a woman with a career I have to shine that bit brighter than everyone else, then so be it. I'll shine brighter.

Meenwhile i'll stay politically active fighting against racists, homophobics, and antidisestablismentarianists.

We women have all the rights we're going to get already. Whether you think the train is still coming or not. I hate to break it to you, but the sufrojets packed up a long time ago.

Did they really put a man on the moon?

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I think Brenda's still sleeping.

yah

Possibly, there is contrary evidence but it's weak. Like a reflection of light from an antenna being referred to as a "glint off a wire".


The egg.

Any more?

If you say so. You know everything.

But as far as changing the word to deviant, my point was, that's worse!

I'd say get your partner and your family legally protected under whatever laws your state has. Don't put pride before your family. Get domestic partnered where you can, adopt the other's children, do whatever you can until if and when marriage would be legal in your state. But, I wouldn't count of an "if" without my family protected in the mean time if it were me.

Why did the chicken cross the road?

You seem to be missing the point that for many same sex couples these protections you talk about just dont exist. In many states in the US as well as where I live these protections are non existant. If I had a child with a female partner where I live than my partner would have NO rights to our child, there is no way for her to adopt our child, she would have no say in the care and welfare.

If I was to die with a female partner my family cold contest my will and our child could go to another family member and my parner could getnone of our estate.

If I was to be in hospital in the ICU my partner would never be allowed in. Family members only, and under those rules my same sex partner would never qualify.

My partner and I dont get the same tax benefits as married couples (oh and i checked to see what if any difference there wasbetween married couples and thoe with the civil union thing in Californa had... the tax thing was different, those only with civil unions dont have the same rights.... just for your knowledge... sorry i dont have a citation, one of my closest mates in a lawyer who is licenced in Cali).

Oh the one exciting thing my partner and i DO get (at least until Jan this year) is our goverment wont see us as a coupe so we get 2 welfare payments as single people, becuase ame sex couples arent recognised as being couples under the law whhere I live. Ohhh but thatis abot to change so that the government will recognise us as a couple so we wont get paid as much. But we will still get none of the benefits of being a couple like an child care rebate nor are we going to be able to have joint superannuation.

So we get the pitfalls of being a couple but none of the advantages come Jan. This puts most same sex couples on welfare being around $400 a fornight WORSE off than their hetro counterparts (married or living de facto....).



Are you maybe starting to see it from another point of view? In almost every state in every country in the world same se couples are treated like 2nd class citizens. Their governments dont want to recognise them ad instead penalise them for soemthng they have no choice in. If this was you then how doyou think you would feel?


Oh and do you realise anything fedreal in the US is still not recognised through a civil union in california unlike a marriage was? Think taxes (and whatever else is government run... i suspect welfare but im not in the US... so yeah)....



** Oh and for the purposes of this post my partner is fictional. My situation is a little different cos my partner is TG. But I still identify as gay and this is what life is like for a gay couple

*shakes head in amazement*

Guys, I think from now on when the subject of equal rights for GLBT comes up, we should just point to this thread. People who think like Avawyn are one of the reasons why so many gay pride groups exist. She's the reason there are so many legal volunteers and support groups and networking sites for justice for *everyone*, not just whoever she thinks has a right to be protected, to be in love and be together, to keep a job and adopt children and buy a house and walk down the street holding hands without fear of assault or insult. Just look at Avawyyn's posts: "Marriage belongs to Christians... your sex is nothing but deviant...no love can be valid in the eyes of the law except man/woman+penis/vagina...vomits when they think of gay men...there is no gay marriage...sodomy = bestiality...if you don't like the way you're treated, then move..."

There are people everywhere who think they are good people and yet still spout this hateful, vile crap and cannot even HEAR the venom dripping when they say it. They can't see how their words chill the hearts of better human beings, and make them quietly resolve to do something right, to help make a change for the better, and to ensure that every American citizen, regardless or race, age, gender, religion, or sexual orientation, enjoys FULL AND EQUAL rights and protections under the law.

Prop 8 ain't over. It's not law yet, and it's already being challenged on every level that it can possibly be, as it should be when ANY sector of the populace is discriminated against unfairly, no matter how many misguided bigots are in favor of the opprression. Just as the First Amendment was not created to protect popular speech - because popular speech by definition does not need protection, rather it is minority viewpoints that enjoy First Amendment shelter - our Constitution was not created simply to protect a majority opinion, because opinions can be incredibly hateful and unjust, especially in the eyes of history. The Constitution of the United States was created to protect the rights of the few despite the opinions of many, and to ensure that justice would always prevail. So far, it has worked, and I'm going to offer this quote, which I've seen on many websites since Nov 4th:

*
We’re going to continue the struggle because a wise human once said, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.

Conservatives are on the wrong side of history.

My fellow Progressives, just remember:

They once fought us on women suffrage, yet on Nov. 4th we had the highest women voter turnout in 90 years.

They once fought us on interracial marriage, and love prevailed.

They once fought us on segregation, and now we have a black President.

They fight us now on marriage equality, but one day I will marry the man of my life.

They demean our relationships, but one day I will adopt my first child.

They call us immoral, but one day a Hindu priest will consecrate my commitment to my future husband.

They will fight us, but we will always prevail.

It may still be dark, but morning in America is always a few moments away.
*

So thank you, Avawyn. You keep right on using the Devil's microphone, and keep spouting off whenever your thong gets in a bunch about all those supposed men in female avatars stealing all the attention from you on SL, or when you suspect Mr RockGod just might have enjoyed it when his groupie du jour lifted up her skirt and gave him a wand instead of a cup. Your reasons may be shallow, but your words are the reason so many Americans continue to fight for equal rights for ALL, not just the people that the small-minded decide are worthy of being protected.

/me smiles at everyone (esp Jig because this was your thread, hon) and backs out of the virtual war, on to fight the real one.

What did the Archbishop of Canterbury ever do to you?

http://philosophy.eserver.org/chicken.txt

Not being a young boy nothing directly, but Church and State should be seperate, as should Church and journalism, and Church and education.

Personally, I'm all in favor of the separation of Church and religion. I just thought that it was amusing to see the word actually being used correctly. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use antidisestablishmentarianism in context before.