As You Like It - Men Becoming Women

Arizona recognizes common law marriages. The couple has to cohabit for 7 years.

Jig: Upon a legal marriage ceremony, all common law stuff transfers to legal marriage stuff. At least in AZ.

So I read through this forum for a bit, and I decided to take your advice.

I'm at encarta "RIGHT NOW" as you have advised and I am looking at both the definition of consummation here and of sexual intercourse. They read as follows:

"sexual intercourse
- sex involving penetration: an act carried out for reproduction or pleasure involving penetration, especially one in which a man inserts his erect penis into a woman's vagina"

-- Now, "an act carried out for reproduction OR pleasure involving penetration". Sounds about right to me. In fact, the only sex I currently have is for pleasure, no babies yet, thank you.

-- So let's get back to the point, "ESPECIALLY one in which a man inserts his penis into a woman's vagina". Especially being the key word here, this does not mean "only when", it means (and we'll use Encarta, since you like us to cite that page.)

1. exceptionally: to an unusual or exceptional degree


2. particularly: used to single out one among a range
They're a helpful group, especially Mark.


3. chiefly: in most cases


4. specially: for a particular or specific purpose

One of these definitions is in place, i.e.: 4; because of human usage, which Encarta explains to a degree after the definition, although there is a clear difference between "specially" and "especially" people happen to use them in the same sense. With that said, Encarta is clear on the difference, and it's safe to assume that they would use the word for it's correct meaning.

So, sexual intercourse is not defined as soley vaginal intercourse, it's just used "to single out one among the range" or "in most cases".

With that definition in place, we move on to consummation:

1. perfect ending: the bringing of something to a satisfying conclusion, or the final satisfying completion or achievement of something
The publication of her book was a consummation of her whole life's work.


2. legal completion of marriage by sex: the legal completion of a marriage by an act of sexual intercourse between the spouses


3. completion of deal: the finalization of something such as a business deal

Obviously, we're looking at the legal definition for marriage, ie: 2. The legal completion of marriage by an act of sexual intercourse between the spouses. As we've learned through Encarta, sexual intercourse is not limited to vaginal intercourse, but it's a prime example for the defintion, as it is the most commonly known.

Personally, I could never marry another woman, but I would never stand in the way of someone who would.

My only recommendation to you, however, would be to look up your citations before using them to further your point.

As for license and privelage, you do have something there. However, if I remember correctly, you need a license to carry a firearm, however, we have a right to bear arms. The reason you need that license is because you need to be approved for it, just like for driving, you have to prove that you're capable and safe, amongst other things. Therefore, a marriage license proves that you are both consenting, that you are harming no one else, and that you have devoted yourselves to each other. While having a marriage license is a privelage, why is it ONLY a privelage for heterosexual couples?

Now, to go back on topic, if I can remember the topic now:

I don't take anyone at face value in SL. If you walk around as a dog, I don't instantly assume you're a dog. When I go around as a mermaid, I don't assume people to believe I'm really a mermaid. Hell, I don't even expect people to believe I'm female. If I were on here to meet someone for romantic purposes, then I could see the issue, but I'm not. The people I meet and talk to, I continue talking to because I find them interesting and/or funny. I don't care what you do, what you did or who you are outside of SL. While I'm in SL, if you engage me with even the slightest amount of wit, then we'll carry on a conversation. We might even have another one tomorrow if we get along well enough. It just doesn't matter to me.

And I have to agree with ... I think it was Jig. Well, it was the last post in the thread before I started typing. Men should experience life as a woman, even if for a day or a week, and it should be encouraged. Especially in SL. Aside from the name-calling, there's many other things to put up with as well. And no, obviously this isn't every male in SL.

Okay, I read the first post again, and no, I definitely don't feel we're superior or dominant in any way. Although the power struggle skews on both ends from time to time, I believe things are becoming more equal. Which is something we should all be working towards.

Edit attempt #1: Typo

It is always amusing reading some of the goofy posts.

So let's see if I understand this right: According to law in California; if a woman married a man who was a quadriplegic and since consummation would never be possible, then the marriage would never be recognized as legal by the courts?????? Did I misrepresent the contention that is being made here?

I love logic

I know this wasn't your entire point and I'm not trying to disagree with the excellent points you just made, I just wanted to butt in and point out that Encarta is an encyclopedia and not a legal reference or a legislative website. What you see is a dictionary definition of "consummation" not "what makes a marriage legal in the eyes of the law, according to law", which is a rather simple point I've tried to pound (unsuccessfully) into a few heads here.

I've already quoted several sources on legal definitions etc and I sure don't blame you for not wanting to wade through all that.

Okay, back to football and sex.

Wrong way around. The marriage would be recognised as legal, but non-consummation would probably be satisfactory grounds for annulment.

Pep (Something is not necessarily the same as not not something)

Without actually looking at any references, I was already under the assumption "consummation" wasn't necessary to validate a marriage.

I just did exactly as was requested by the poster I quoted. I searched for the references she mentioned and tried to come up with the same answers she did to defend her argument.

Although Encarta obviously has no legal definition regarding consummation and marriage validity, the post I quoted mentioned that Encarta explains what consummation means (explaining that consummation is having sexual intercourse to finalize the marriage) and that sexual intercourse, according to Encarta only defines as vaginal penetration via the penis.

My assumption is that the point was: Gay couples can't marry because they can't consummate due to defitinitions of sexual intercourse. Not only is that wrong by legal definition of marriage validity regarding consummation, which you've already pointed out. But, it's also wrong purely on the definitions she referenced.

_____

Oh! And I was still a bit off topic with my last post. I don't think men take on female avatars due to conforming to a dominant sex. But, I'm sure there are some reasons: some men are transgendered and feel more appropriate to don a female avie (which I guess you could construe to the OP's original post, but not quite), um .. although a man is representing himself, some prefer to look at something that appeals to them, ie a female (which I have seen explained on many occasions), so on and so forth.

Sorry, my thoughts race without my control a lot and I lose where I'm going, where I was and - ooh! look! a butterfly!

/me gives you a thumbs up and some of his football cake.

Yay! Thanks! Finally, the free cake I was promised so long ago!

Wrong for Colorado

Wrong again for Colorado.

In Colorado, all you have to do is co-mingle your finances and present yourself as husband and wife and you are common law married -- it does not even require a specific amount of co-habitation time and it definitely does not require any sex of any sort.

Probably true.

To another point, not the above poster. Encarta is fine with me, it agrees with my several different volumes of dictionaries I have at home. So I have no problem with Encarta, and Encarta did give you the legal definition of consummation as it pertains to making a marriage legal via sexual intercourse.

Next point: oops --- The info I got that common law marriages were no longer permitted in the U.S. was on a legal reference site. Oh well, not important unless you need to know for yourself, then you need to make a phone call to a lawyer.

Next point, clothes can't make you a woman anymore than my putting a Santa suit on my cat will make him Santa Clause. And my cat does love to wear hats and have his picture taken!

But real point, clothes don't make you a woman. Just putting on high heels is not going to make you a woman. Clothes don't make a person. My only dislike of this is that it hurts others and has caused men to be aloof and distant if a female avie is not on mic now. Just speaking the truth of what's happening on SL for some people. I gather their sick of this game called "guess my real gender"? It kind of bums me out too on SL cuz I know we can't really have girl time without dudes trying to be a fly on the wall.

Later, and best of luck with your SL happiness!

Don't worry. There are plenty of gullible noobies©®™ to be had (or flat out rejected). For now, I'll go play with my dolly... We know everything about each other anyway. =^-^=

Have a nice day, you're on your own, good night. (^_^)y

Gee, and that must be the fault of the woman for not sharing her personal RL details just because some men are terrified of cybering with a man, huh?

So now are you saying its not just men who must know your RL gender? Are we all going to have proving parties now? This is getting very pathetic.

I don't need to know anyone's gender and I don't know any of my friends (who may or may not be women IRL) who care if a man is really present in a female av during "girl time" as long as they are able to keep the illusion reasonably convincing and believe me from what I have seen the barrier to that is not high. The people I know are for the most part are pretty accomodating.

My advice to those people who are "sick of playing the guessing game" is don't play the guessing game, go to MyFaceSpaceBook and find what you need there, SL is not the place for you.

You seem to be under the impression that the problem is with anyone but the people you talk about in your quote, it is them who must make the changes and not everyone they come into contact with. It's not all about THEM you know.

I would wish you happiness in your SL but with the people you seem to know and your attitude, I seriously doubt you will find any.

Now you owe me a new keyboard! XD ... And, some higher cubicle walls... (>_<

I've got a buncha people around me wondering what I'm laughing at, and I'm soooooo not in the mood to try to explain this thread. =^-^=

I had a thought-out, well written reply and I just deleted it.

At this point, your only argument is that you refuse to accept sexual intercourse as anything but vaginal intercourse because if other forms of sexual intercourse were acceptable in your own head, then your husband would have a right to rape you anally. Which just makes me wonder .... if you don't want to have vaginal sex, it doesn't matter because he has the right to do so? This is what you're portraying to us at this point, and well ... if that's how you feel about it, then you have more problems than just accepting what defines sexual intercourse.

________

Everyone is aware of what they are and who they are. If someone decides to use SL as their gateway, or as a place to pretend and imagine, then that's fine with me. If I need girl time, I call up my girl friends to go out to eat, or we go dancing. In a place where people can be whoever and whatever they want to be, you either need to shut yourself off from the population or deal. And that's one thing I like about SL, I get to talk to people that I might not have ever even thought to otherwise. Well, that and it's a cheaper way of feeding my shopping addiction.

Some people are deceptive, we get hurt in RL from people who lie, people who aren't exactly who they portrayed to be. If you, or your friends can't handle that, then you're in the wrong line of life. Which brings up another lovely addition to SL that we don't have in RL. Depending on your OS, there's a dandy little "X" at the top of your screen that will turn the world off. Then you don't have to worry yourself sick over who might be who, or who might reject you because of their own preconceived notions.

I do share personal information with people I've just met in SL, it all depends on my mood. If someone isn't willing to share with me, I'm okay with that as it's none of my business anyways. And .... I've lost my train of thought.

Why do I bother? I don't know at this point cuz the rudeness is terrible.

Within the laws of marriage if a spouse refuses to continue in sexual intercourse, the party can seek a divorce in some states. I don't know about all states because that differs. But yes, one is legally obliged to continue sexual intercourse within a marriage or one can seek divorce on those grounds.

How does all this RL marriage mess apply to the OP? (O.o)

WOW! Lady (or Guy) you really, really need to leave SL behind you. Go find some Puritan Life or some other lame, plain vanilla place to go to. Second Life is definitely not for you though.

I don't know why I bother either, because quite frankly, it seems futile on this end as well.

But ... here we gooooo ... With anal sex being included in the definition of sexual intercourse, that does not replace vaginal intercourse. I find it hard to believe that a divorce could be granted solely on the grounds that you refused your husband anal sex, when you still offer other forms of sex. It just wouldn't happen.

Let's picture this. You're in front of a judge, you are currently pregnant with your husband's child, but he is divorcing you because you won't let him put it in your butt. You would both be laughed out of the courtroom. While you refuse to participate in one form of sexual intercourse, you are still not denying him another. If you were to deny any and all forms, then he would have grounds for divorce.

To ask you to get with the times is not rude, it's a necessity for our society to thrive and grow. I happen to find you telling us to look up blatant facts, and then disregarding them when they disprove you to be quite rude. Putting everything into a little box does not work with the world's diversity anymore.

I dunno, but I find the conversation interesting.

Heh... There's always Springer. =^-^=

No, the definition of sodomy still exists as anal intercourse or bestiality in all the dictionaries I've looked in. Sodomy is no longer illegal, but is not considered normal nor natural intercourse.

And I have put up all the facts as facts and told ya you have a computer to research all ya want. I'm not your personal secretary.

As far as rudeness, it stinks here real bad. I simply pointed out a different point of view and got about 10 or more stupid snide remarks that sounds like they come from 10 year olds shoving people on a playground.

I just went online to ask some men I know about how they feel about men in female avatars. Let me just say frankly, they don't like it and it worries them sometimes but that they have ways of telling a real woman from one who isn't. The main reason they said the way they tell is that a woman is more "romantic". I thought that was interesting and they're going to tell me more later this week after my vacation.

Sorry if you don't like what I say but you don't have to act like a 10 year old who can't have their ice cream cone and has to throw a tantrum. If grown ups appear I may come back to the debate.

And I like SL enough or I wouldn't be here. What a dumb remark. I don't think these remarks can get much dumber.

I would not have thought so either but you keep proving yourself wrong *eats popcorn*

Ok, that one cracked me up. Seriously.

So, because you're proven wrong time and time again, that constitutes as juvenile? You tell me to look it up for myself, I do and you resort to getting all butt hurt (no pun intended) when the "facts" you state aren't right?

As for some of the questions I asked you, they were directed to you because you're the only one who can answer them. When I present to you what encarta lists as sexual intercourse (showing vaginal as an example, and not the end-all that beats-all) and ask you what else you feel is considered sexual intercourse based on those facts, you ignore them and move right along to sprouting out a different point on the topic, and continue to tell me to look it up, when I already did. No amount of internet searching is going to tell me what else you would constitute as sexual intercourse since the definition you had me look up does not fit your description. Perhaps you can crack open your out of date Encarta, and read the section that explains what else you would consider as sexual intercourse.

Now, since we agree on the definition of consummation, I will cite you the page that states the definition of sexual intercourse.

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/search.aspx?q=sexual+intercourse

You're completely entitled to your opinion, if you think gay marriage is wrong, then kudos to you for that, however, don't hide behind false information if you're going to do so. It's okay to be a bigot, that doesn't make you a bad person. It's really easy ... "The idea of same-sex marriage makes me uncomfortable, and I just don't like it."

Proving your facts wrong does not mean it has to change your mind, but you should at least be honest with yourself as to why you are against something.

As for your "research" into how women are more "romantic" in a man's eyes, please post any information you find on the subject, I would be very interested to read your findings. It may even open up a decent conversation amongst residents on the forums.

As for guys that don't like men in women avatars, we know that people are freaked out by the idea, that isn't new information. The only thing most of us in here could do on that topic, was to express our own personal views. And ... to remind you that it probably isn't going to change, so if it's too hard to handle, then you shouldn't be in SL of all places. You stated a problem you had, we offered you the easiest solution, nothing more.

And to cap, just so you're aware, I have no animosity towards you, and I don't have any problem with your beliefs out of respect for your beliefs, however I am also entitled to mine. I just don't understand the whole "facts" scenerio. If you ask someone to look up information and you happen to be wrong about it, that doesn't mean you have to get upset about it. That's like me saying the sky is green and then refusing to look up when someone tries to show me that it's actually blue. I can still say that I prefer green more, but I can't deny the truth without looking like a total ass.