Would you pay to attend a live performance?

I have no problem with a cover charge to hear live music in SL. If there is no cover charge, I always tip the performer and usually the venue and/or hosts if I've got the money. If I don't have money to tip, I don't attend.

I've paid a cover charge of $1000L for at least two shows in SL, both which were sold out by the time of the performance and definitely worth MORE than the ticket cost. I've also noticed the specific artist who set up the ticketed shows performed better and longer than he does at free shows.

A caveat about tipping venues/hosts: If the host is really spammy and uses loud gestures or ASCII in chat, I tend to "forget" the tip because it's annoying to see or hear that flash by. I also tend to not go back to that venue, and the host is likely on my mute list anyway.

Also, listening to someone do karaoke in SL: not fun, not interesting, annoying when they forget the words, and unless they are really spectacular at it, I'll probably turn them off or leave. I'll still tip them $25-$100L, but you should know I'm usually tipping people who play their own instrument well about $500L-$1000L or even up to $5000L depending on my finances at the time.

I went to a ticketed event, and loved it. It was small, cozy and we all received items exclusive to that show. We were treated like family and I would definitely pay for a ticketed event again, knowing that with this one fee, all my needs, the venue's needs and the musician's needs are met.

How does a listener know whether the venue paid the musician or it is a tips only venue?

Shouldn't this affect how much tips the performer or the venue should get? If the venue didn't pay the musician a fee, shouldnt they be entitled to less in tips for that show? Why do some venues have to pay for the same performers that others get free? Musicians should be paid for their time, equipment and their passion.

I honestly didn't know that

I, too, will remember this should I attend a live concert again.

Simplistic logic. The product of live music has been selling since people discovered you could make noise by blowing on a blade of grass. The product that isn't viable is SL as a medium for presenting it and that's because, as has been made gloriously clear in this forum, many of you aren't willing to support it. That's your choice and music may not belong in SL. Perhaps, as some have said here, all people want is soma from the radio station they can get for free. You might want to try Slow Radio from Belgium as it plays romantic music without commercials. It's all quite good and it all sounds exactly the same so it won't upset your old digestive system too much.

Well said, but I woukd question people who think an artists performance is worth $0L as to why they are bothering to be there if the perfomance is that bad, to the performer saying to them "I think your talents are worth nothing" by not paying to enter or tipping can be seen as insulting.
To walk out of an hour entertaining people who are wooting and praising your groups performance with less money than a guy with a guitar can earn outside a train station would be pretty demoralising, people are just lucky I think that there are enough noob artists & DJ's coming in to entertain at a loss to cover the ones getting tired of bothering, this of course won't last forever and then there will be all these posts about "where has all the good music gone?"
Imagine how other content creators would be reacting if people only had to pay what they thought the products were worth to get them. "You really spent 4 hours on these, they are fantastic, I really love your work it's so great and original, I will give you $2L for them"
Would people so confident in the tipping system replace their vendor pricing with tip jars? I think not.

i skimmed through some of the initial answers, but don't have the capacity to read the whole thread right now..

honestly.. for a singular performance? probably not, i'd rather just tip the performer.

on the other hand, if it was a long event (3+ hours) with multiple artists (as in a festival), the yes.. i owuld probably be willing to pay.

Lollapalooza costs how much? compared to a festival in SL costing.. what? L$100? L$250? a little more? depends on the length and quality, as well as presentation, but yeah.. i would probably go for that.

live music in SL is awesome.. and growing. there is a balance between tipping and paying for a show. it's up to the organizers to decide whether it's big enough for ticketed entrance.

so yes, i would pay for entrance. but only to an event featuring multiple artists usually.. otherwise tips are good enough. (in my opinion)

It's never an insult if it's true. At one live show that I went to, I heard a few bars as I approached the entrance, and I TPed away immediately. They really were that bad. That's when I formed my opinion of who *some* of the live singers are - people who fancy themselves as singers but are useless at it, and would be unable to make a dollar doing it in RL. SL gives them the cheap opportunity to be a 'real' singer and boost their egos.

True, but it also appears to happen to many performers who aren't crap, people will shout and cheer for an hour listening to them but still not tip.

Listeners typically don't know the financial arrangement between the artist and the venue.

It's important that everyone realize that this thread was to ask about a business concept. I would hate to see the performers NOT getting tipped, that was not my goal. Somewhere through our discussions, an awareness occurred that some (most) venues have to pay for some (most) of the performers. Please DO NOT stop supporting the performers...just kinda remember that the house has expenses too

The only reaction I've seen so far is that people see that performers are, in some cases, getting paid so that means the audience can tip even less. It doesn't really surprise me that people have been to a few live shows in SL and never went back and venue owners are in large part responsible for that because they've so much hyped acts that suck. Venue owners have also assumed, for the most part, that the only music people want to hear is someone singing cover songs with an acoustic guitar accompaniment.

Phil Deakins is quite right that much SL music sucks but that's true of any music. Hold your judgment until you've heard Cylindrian Rutabaga who does one of the finest acoustic folk sets in SL. Don't miss Alazarin Mondrian for original rock that's reminiscent of Steve Hillage and Alazarin is just as good. Kim Seifert does one of the most emotional vocal sets you'll hear anywhere. Some have dismissed her as a karaoke singer but that doesn't quite cover her original songs she's done in collaboration with other SL musicians, does it. Then there's Forsythe Whitfield, who does kind of an Americana set and that would be an appropriate classification if he were not in Canada. Regardless of location, you won't find anyone who does it better in or out of SL. Paisley Beebe puts a jazzy twist on old standards and Dexter Ihnen is the best of the busker minstrels.

On a roll, others people like quite a bit: Noma Falta (electric blues), Max Kleene (acoustic covers), Virtual Live Band (five-person live blues band), Dann Numbers (high-energy acoustic), srv4u Connacher (gospel blues - don't read that as wimpy; he's excellent), Nad Gough (pop covers and very funny delivery / stage presence), and many others.

If you want to judge SL music, go to see some of the good ones before giving it up.

I couldn't agree more HuneyBear!! And every tip IS appreciated, even the L$10 from the newb who had to camp for hours to get it!!

And if you can't afford to tip at all, please don't stay away. I'll tell you what I have against cover charges; they exclude newbies and people who don't have any money at show time. I will never charge a cover at Rocky Shores because I LOVE when a newb comes on the venue, doesn't know it's live, then doesn't believe it's live, then can't believe their ears. They get so excited!! It makes my whole day. Second Life and Second Life music have picked up some real die hards that way!

But nearly HALF the audience does NOT tip the musician and over NINETY PERCENT never tips the venue. I know the audience appreciates my venue, I brought it back only because they (and the musicians) asked me to. I can only assume the lack of tipping is a lack of understanding.

Now, I'm not talking about the avie that comes in for five minutes, hates the show and leaves. If you don't like the show, you shouldn't tip. If the venue is spammy and no one is doing anything about it, you shouldn't tip the venue (but mute the spammer and tip the musician if you enjoy their music and have the lindies to spare). I'm talking about people who stay for the whole show, woot and holler the whole time, have plenty of lindies in their pocket (as can be seen by their fancy avie) and don't tip anyone. I can only ascribe that to a lack of understanding of the fact that there are costs involved in providing them this entertainment (which we offer for free so the newbs and folks who really can't afford to pay a cover can enjoy it too).

So my only point was to enlighten the 90% who never tip the venue, not to show a lack of appreciation to the 10% who tip regularly (regardless of the size of the tip) and definitely not to say that musicians don't deserve every lindie they receive. They deserve our wholehearted support.

Definitely, continue to support the musicians FIRST, and the venue second. Don't worry about the size of your tip, all are appreciated. And if you can't afford a tip, come and have a good time anyway!! Every musician and every venue owner wants every fan to come and have a good time whether they have jingle in their pocket or not. That's the main thing that holds many of us back from blanket cover charges.

As for determining whether a venue is tips only or pays musicians fees, don't worry about including that in calculating your tip. Tip what YOU feel is appropriate to the experience you had at the show. Tips only venues who get more tips in a show than it takes to cover their costs pass excess to the musician as an additional tip from the venue. Venues who pay fees likely would also, except their venue tips never exceed their costs.

Elwood: Illinois Nazis.
Jake: I hate Illinois Nazis.

Silas is one of the best SL musicians.
Ticious has a great live music sim.
I try to tip artist and sim.
The live music scene in SL is what I mostly do here.

That's sweet of you to say but I'm rather less than the best. One thing that's definitely true is that almost invariably the ones who think they're the best aren't but that's true pretty much anywhere. None of the ones I've listed has much of an ego.

If I'm not the best guitarist then who is...I'd call it a tie between Alazarin Mondrian and Forsythe Whitfield as both are highly innovative and original in their creations and highly professional in their delivery. Dexter Ihnen is also quite good and none of these three sound like any of the others.

For what it's worth Si, you know I've always enjoyed your damn-the-torpedos approach to attacking a guitar

But that's not why I'm weighing in on this.

Last night, Chronic and Max hooked up at BuffaloMike's place. While I agree with your take on piggyback streaming as turning one person into a human click-track and find it personally too frustrating to be of much interest, the boys ripped off a version of Blue Rodeo's Hasn't Hit Me Yet that was friggin' magic. I was jammin' along at home and literally had goosebumps. The whole set was excellent.

My point is just this, magic moments have never been about ticket prices, cover charges, T-shirts or union dues.

Whether it's Vienna, Greenwich Village, Berlin, Haight-Asbury, Lincoln-Halstead, Seattle, pick-a-place where musical and/or artistic movements began, it has never, ever been about the money. Woodstock lost a bundle for its organizers. The Filmores almost put Kirschner in the poor house. Still, the music found a way ...

But, to try and stay on topic and answer the OP's question. . .

For a host of reasons that don't matter and won't change anyways, SL seems to function
better as a busking platform than coffee house, concert hall or arena. So, even if you could promise me that Chronic and Max will recreate last night to the note, I'm not likely to pay up front. I would however be happy to tip them twice again like I did last night.

Either way tho, it just doesn't matter. Because if it's going to happen, the music will find a way, all on its own. Always has.

Ive been listening to live music in SL since soon after I rezzed. And I love it and support the musicians and the venues when I can.

But I wouldn't pay a cover charge to see the musicians. Ive gotten to the point I listen on stream rather then go to the shows.

The gesture spam has gotten out of control, remember the days people typed / in from of stuff so you didn't hear the typing? Those are long gone. And chat spam from the venue owners asking for money, and I'm not talking about once, twice in an hour, Ive seen some that do it every 5-10 minutes.

Some venues are just awful with lag when there are 10 people there get 40..50... 80 like at some shows and you can't move. You slap a stage up in the middle of your mall hoping you will get business from the show, thats not a venue. The former Old Salts, The hummingbird Cafe, The Freudian Slip, Sterling Vineyards, Rocky Shores, those are the venues that get my money, those are are great venues.


*waves to Ticious*

My problem isn't that music is free but rather with the EXPECTATION that it will be free. There's also a perception that if a performer is making ten or twenty bucks for a show then that's plenty. I don't know if you know but most of the gigs I do are for free and I've never been in SL for the money as there's very little money in it; that'd be senseless. Tips aren't financial compensation, they're validation, and I don't think many people understand that.

Tickets are a waste. Unless someone knows you already, why should they pay for a ticket. Besides, a ticket only serves as a tip limiter plus it antagonizes the ones who really can't afford it. I've noticed various people talking big about how well a ticketed event went but I also notice that hardly anyone ever does a second one.

No. I have not read through the entire thread, so I am certain others have said what I am about to say.

The reason for my answer is: lag. I don't know, until I get someplace, if I will be able to move around, find a place to sit down or a place to stand and dance (if appropriate), if I will be able to enjoy the performance "woo-hoo"-free, or even if I am going to be able to stay long enough to enjoy the performance.

I do support the performer, if warranted, and I try to support the venue owner, if I can readily find the venue owner's "tip jar."

To add another aspect to that, I know from a friend of mine that the reason he charges the venue owner for appearing is simply to be sure the venue has made a commitment. He has been burned by the venue not having the promised stream ready, or canceling at the last moment. Not only does it waste the musician's time, it also makes a fool of him in front of the fans who has been promised a show through group notifications and event listings.
(I'm of course not saying venue owners do that in general; just noting that it goes well in hand with the validation Silas talks about).

/me slips off her venue owner hat and slips on her artist manager hat . . .

Since payment isn't generally due until the time of the performance, the logic here doesn't hold. A venue owner who's gonna no-show is gonna no-pay as well (regardless of the up front agreement) and the only thing the musician can do is refuse further gigs at that venue. And that holds whether there was a fee arrangement or not.

As far as looking foolish in front of their fans. Not so. This happens to everyone from time to time and the only one who comes out looking bad is the venue owner (unless they have a REAL good reason). You're only protection, scant as it is, is at the time of booking, hand the venue rep a notecard with the date/time and terms, ask that they add lm and stream info and pass it back (after reviewing it of course). And insist on getting the names of at least one, and preferably two venue reps with parcel perms who will be present at the gig and don't confirm the gig without until you have it all.

And even with all that, know that this will happen from time to time, regardless of whether it's a fee paid or play for tips gig.

But we're off topic, whether the musician charges a fee or not doesn't really bear on whether folks will be willing to pay for tickets. And that's the question, not why/when a musician should charge a fee.

I've been playing in SL for years and I bet there are less than half a dozen times that there has been a problem because of a no-show from the venue owner. Sure there are glitches at times but not because of anyone who was jerking me around. The venue owners are almost unanimously highly-conscientious. I know you weren't trying to slam them but someone unfamiliar with music in SL might see it as one.

As to tip validation, if someone throws $50L, there's no possible way you can know if that's a tip or a slam. A quarter? Are you for real? If that's seriously all you have in your pocket, then maybe it's time for a car wash or a bake sale or something! People would blow more than that on coffee at Starbucks but SL jams aren't worth it. Maybe they're not. I don't know.

It's really not a question of whether people will pay for tickets but rather whether they'll pay for anything at all.

After running an obscure little venue (no shops, no rental homes) for a good half year now, I have the impression that people are more inclined to tip the musician than the venue. Which is, of course, not so strange as it's the artist who's doing the show.

Would I buy a ticket to see a show? I guess I would, if I really wanted to see it. I mean, I tip venues and artists anyway, so why not buy a ticket? But I have to admit I've never been to a ticketed event.

Would I ever do a ticketed event myself? No effin' way. The way I see it, is that the groove of the music, the overall vibe of a concert and all the smiling faces are priceless. And for the rest, there's mastercard. I do have a venue tipjar though, just in case someone might feel inclined to chip in.

As far as the musician's fee is concerned: paying it is like offering the artist a couple of beers to do his or her thing for an hour or so. And a couple of beers is the very least they deserve. I mean, 5K in L$ is, like, 13 euro's or something. A very small price to pay for helping to bring some beauty in a world that is in such dire need of it.

At today's sell rate, 5k lindens is $17.57USD - couple of beers? You must drink some very expensive beer

I'm not going to mention who the performer was, but I've had him at my club before and I know his fee is 5k. I went to one of his performances the other night, and one must assume he was paid 5k for the performance. The last time I looked, about 15 minutes before the event ended, he had 6800 in his tip jar. So, for that one hour performance, he made roughly $41USD...and had another performance later that night. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that he made the same amount in tips at the next show, the performer made about $80USD for the evening, and I don't know if he had any earlier shows, or any shows after the later show.

Now, to a lot of people, $80USD is a LOT of money. Even if he's only doing it on weekends (which I'm not sure about), that's still $160 per weekend - $640USD per month.

Now, this is a very talented performer, and I am not for a moment implying that he isn't worth the money, because I totally think he is. But I think it would be nice if the venue could count on say, one-quarter of that, when many of us are at our clubs 7 days per week, countless hours per day.

Once again, when I asked about charging an admission fee, the number I had in mind was no more than 25L. I'm just not convinced that's too much to ask for.

Times they are a-changing. There was a time when people said they would never pay something called TIER.

Tier-paying venue owners supporting staff and classifieds really cannot be the sole supporter of the Live Music 'Industry' in Second Life. Something has to give. Two years ago most perfomed in SL to promote their real-life music careers. After a while they saw that they could get the exposure they sought AND make some bucks. And the fees have been soaring ever since. Honestly, it is just not feasable to expect a person in the same financial bracket as yourself to pay tier, buy club equipment, pay for advertising, pay staff AND pay musicians several days a week. The Live music scene is on the verge of becoming an elitist activity in Second Life. If you have to ask - you can't afford it.

Hopefully some artists will step up and partner with venue owners to create a win-win situation soon. Maybe we can promote the idea by having a Live Music Day across the grid and we all have Green Lines around our venues. We can assist in changing the way people think here.


.

Getting venues to unite together like that is virtually impossible because they are popping up constantly.... someone goes to a show and thinks, hey this is cool, goes back to their land and builds a venue, they hire staff, musicians, put on a few shows, then realize that it's draining their pocketbooks and their fun, so they shut down and another pops up.

I don't think the SL economy and interest in live music, specifically is large enough to truly support it as it should be. I don't think that SL is ready for across the board cover charges, there are too many venues and too many musicians and not enough people to come out an listen.

For now I think education is the important thing.... letting people know how it works and the costs involved... eventually things will sort themselves out.