Would you pay to attend a live performance?

Sounds like a prison sentence.

In-world music is nice and all, but it's just one piece of the picture, and for a lot of us, a fairly minor piece. If my tips aren't up to the musician's standards, well gee, sorry 'bout that, but there's lots of other fun stuff to experience that costs nothing at all, and when I really want to splurge, I might spend a few hundred or a thousand L$s on a live performance, or on something else.

You know, as I think about this, I tip live musicians *way* more than the amount I'd expect to spend on other in-world goods and services offering an equal or better quality of entertainment.

Now this post has me thinking that in-world live music is just not cost-effective.

Are people coming and not tipping because they are freeloaders, or are the coming and not tipping because they think that the entry price ($0L) is just right?

Because the artists who perform may put a lot of work into performing, and they may be quite talented and quite deserving of compensation for what they do, that does not mean what they might deserve is the same thing as what they are worth to the customer.

There are many, many quality differences between the live music I would hear in Second Life and the live music that I would experience at the local bar. And the quality differences aren't necessarily because of anything wrong with the SL performer. Sound quality is different, the social atmosphere is different.

In short, Second Life is just not designed to bring you the same live music experience that you would find in real life. It's just a factual limitation of Second Life.

My assumption was that most Second Life performers were performing primarily because they enjoyed it, and not for the money. Second Life isn't the best platform for a musician to be making money.

When I've attended live performances and tipped performers, I did so not because I thought my little tip of $100L or whatever (that's 30 or 40 cents in USD?) was financially helpful to the artist. I've done it as a show of appreciation for the artist.

And for me, those tiny expenditures are all I will do in Second Life. Not because I don't appreciate what any artist can do (whether it be a live performer or another content creator), but because I have priorities in spending my money. If I'm going to spend any signficant amount of money on entertainment, I'm going to do it on real life entertainment, and not virtual entertainment.

That's something that a lot of content creators in Second Life lose sight of. They may have talent and do a lot of hard work, but when someone buys a product or a service, they are not buying it based on the talent or hard work of the creator. They are buying it on the basis of value to the customer.

I would rather pay an entrance fee for a live performer than figure out who all to tip at a venue and how much.

No idea what a fair price would be as I rarely attend live performances - which kind of makes my answer a moot point, but I'd still rather pay a flat fee and not be spammed with "don't forget to tip....."

Live performances are my #1 entertainment in SL. I go to a show nearly every night (sometimes 4 shows per night since Monday nights ROCK at Sunset Jazz Club!) and tip both the performers and the venue.

I've only once seen admission fees for a live performance... one i really wanted to see. I did NOT pay. I don't think it was successful. That performer never charged admission again.

Don't do it. Put out a tip jar for the venue. Point it out graciousely to your guests and let them know the donations go toward getting great performers. Let your performers know about it and they'll ask the guests to give a donation.

I understand that this is true for many, but at the same time, there is a desire to be compensated for their time. The people who really put this into action are those that don't charge at all. But their time is still valuable, and yet ... this is not a medium where a musician should expect to make any kind of rl living. Most, if not all musicians, know this. And yet there has been a proliferation of artists and "artists" out there trying to make a damn good second living this way. It is hard to tell who is or isn't "doing it for the money" except for those that don't charge anything at all.


This is why there is such a disconnect. In SL, if you custom make anything, you have to basically devalue your time. You could spend 2-4 hours putting together a custom build for someone, and they will be appalled to pay you for 2 rl minimum wage hours, which equates to just north of 3000 L. "Why should you pay anyone that much for a virtual X, Y or Z?!"

Anything short of a mass-production release that will continue to sell itself requires a gross devaluation of what your time is worth because of this diminished view of the value of digital entertainment.

As it pertains to live music, however, your point of view is interesting. It is a romanticized view of SL, somewhat, in that you believe people still do this just for the art, when it couldn't be farther from the truth for some people. For some venue owners it IS about business - the venue is used to drive rentals. But for those people like Ticious, Jo, etc. where it reflects more of a love for live music and they have paid hundreds of unrequited dollars in that effort (yes, I've read those threads in SLMC) and have had to go to tips-only just to keep the venue open, the cost of keeping live music going has to be shared between fans, venue owners AND the musicians. The fans, for the most part, are not aware of their part and this view is certainly one reason why.

If you want to treat live music as a business, you need to apply some business principles to it.

What I am expressing is not a point-of-view, but a basic, Economics 101 description of how consumers spend money.

I, a consumer, have no moral obligation to financially support artists, no matter how good they are, or hard-working they are.

I may pay money to hear a performance, if I think that the price charged is worth the service I will be receiving. If the price charged is too high, then I won't attend the performance.

Telling me that I have to do my part to support live music in Second Life is not going to make me decide to spend more money on live music. Because I make my decisions on how to spend my money based upon the value I think that I will receive from the expenditure.

If you find a model to have live performances that make good money for artists, that would be great. But you will fail in that if you don't understand the ways in which consumers spend their money, and apply some business sense to the endeavor.

Give the cover charge idea a try and see if it works. The only real way to see if it will work is through experimentation. I explained why I would stay away from places charging cover fees (for any type of event), and I'm guessing that I'm not the only person who feels the same way. But I could turn out to be the small minority.

YMMV, but the better performers (see my previous post in this thread for examples of the top caliber) use equipment that allows them to stream a crystal clear, quality audio stream. It's virtually (no pun intended) as good as being in the same room with them. Now, this also tends to mean that they've spent more money on their equipment in order to achieve that quality.

Now, I agree, there are performers out there that sound like they have an $8 mic plugged directly into their sound card -- i.e. they sound like crap. As referenced in my M2 column a few months ago, there are also performers who mumble incoherently and giggle between songs, drunk or stoned or both, trying to figure out what song they're gonna do next, screwing up lyrics, playing the wrong chords... those people are not who I am talking about and, largely, I won't go see those people a second time.

But for you to generalize and say that no one performing in SL sounds as good as can be the case in RL is simply not the case.

P2




So there's a difference between entertainment in Reality and entertainment in the virtual world? News to me. The experience is a different one, but the endorphins released by an enjoyable experience are the same.

P2

My computer speakers are small, barely-suitable-for-gaming things, and since I live with people, I have to respect them by not turning up things loudly anyway.

I may be the only one though. I'm just trying to offer some helpful perspective. Ultimately, I'd like to see the live performers happy and successful.

If you want my money, you have to see things from my perspective, because my perspective is the only one that matters when it comes to spending my money.

This is not a pure business model.

No one is asking you as a consumer to support all live music. But for those artists that you choose to attend, do you really think you have no obligation to support them if you want to keep them around? Do you really expect people to give you their time, energy and art 100% gratis?

I am not saying that fans should tip/donate enough to support a rl living but to accept certain realities - namely, that it costs musicians and venue owners real money to provide entertainment, and the reality is that unless there is a decent enough offset, it will not stick around.

So if you really think you should be hearing live performances for free, and you have not even the slightest moral obligation to provide support for the things you enjoy, then you absolutely should not expect this thing that enriches your life to stick around.

Heheh. There's your problem. For $20 or less, you can get an inexpensive pair of headphones -- Koss are good -- and get a whole lot more immersive experience than you can with speakers. Even a cheap pair of $5 Sony's will be better than the cheap speakers.

Then you can crank them up and make your flatmates stare at you while you chair dance.

P2

I'll try to state this one last time, and if either no one cares what I think, or I'm just poor at stating it, either is just fine and dandy.

I am not obligated to pay that which I am not charged. My money is mine. No one has an entitlement to it.

I understand that it is customary that if I stay and listen to a performance, that a way of showing appreciation and support is to give a tip to the artist. I am happy to do that.

If the deal is that I can enter a place without a cover charge, listen to a performance, and then after the perforomance, I can choose to leave a tip if I liked the performance, that is a deal that I will accept.

If the deal is that I have to pay a cover charge to get in prior, that is a deal that I will reject. I will not attent that live performance. I have no obligation to attend it.

I am comfortable with giving a small amount of money to live performers. The more money I am expected to give, the less likely I am to go see the performance at all.

I have no obligation to attend any performance. My time and my money are mine alone. I may choose to do with either as I see fit.

If a live performer wants to charge a cover charge, or an amount of any type more than I am willing to pay, I am not going to complain about it. I will simply not attend that peformance.

Just because a live musician is talented and works hard, that does not create an obligation in me to attend a performance or give my money. There are a lot of talented and hard working people in Second Life. I don't want to give a lot of money to each and every one of them. I only give them my money if they offer me something in exchange for that money, and I determine that what is being offered is worth the money being charged.

If you want to try to convince me that live performers, or anyone, has an entitlement to my money, that argument is going to fall on deaf ears. Try to make me feel as bad as you want about me being cheap, but the bottom line is, I won't spend money that I don't want to spend.

If I do not want to spend the money that a live performer wants to charge for a performance, I have the option of not attending the performance, and that's an option that I would exercise.

That's about as plainly as I can explain it. Maybe I don't explain it well. Maybe my opinion is just a bad opinion, an exception to what most residents would think, and you can safely ignore it. Decide for yourself, but I'm about done defending it. I don't even care about defending it in the first place. I was trying to provide insight. If I haven't done so at this point, then I'll just have to accept the fact that I failed to do so, and do something else with my time.

Just so you know: there are now several hundred people who have performed live music in SL, and over 100 who play very often, from a couple times per week to multiple shows every single day.

Like any large segment of society, there are varied opinions among us in terms of what's right or wrong in the specific regard to what you folks have been discussing in this thread. None of us, self-included, speak for everyone else. We can only offer our own perspectives based on our experiences, which may vary pretty wildly from person to person.

Still, the one thing that we SL musicians and DJs all do seem to have in common is the desire to make sure the venues don't have to operate too deeply in the red in order to bring the experience of live music to SL residents, as well as compensating us musicians for our time and efforts. The grand majority of us do appreciate whatever you can justify giving us, as well as the venues, to help support this part of the SL experience. For some n00bs, that might mean L$10, and for some folks who are financially comfortable, I get tips of L$1000.

My only point here is: tip only if you want, and only if it's not a burden for you. But recognize two things: that the musicians are making an effort for you, and that the venues deal with costs that you may want to help them with if you enjoy yourself there.

Amity's point was not about listening to music for free, but that you can only sell a product for what people are willing to pay. If that does not cover the "production cost", then it's simply not a viable product, business wise.
However cynical it may sound, it's of course perfectly true. How you, as the business man, choose to deal with it is up to you. You may try to educate your consumers about the true value of the product (aka PR and branding), you may lower production cost, you may fold and quit, you may see see it as a PR campaign for a RL product, you may consider it training, whatever justifies it in your mind.
But no consumer has any moral obligation to buy your product because you think it is good and worth it. If they want it, they'll of course have to pay the price you set, and decide for themselves if that is worth it to them, or if they'd rather go without your product.

And as has been pointed out earlier, it's really hard to get people to pay the actual cost of unique things in SL; only the thing you can mass produce has any real chance of true commercial success.

The bleeding-heart view is that people don't tip because they don't know any better. Perhaps people are that stupid but I'd like to think it's not true. How could they possibly not know the conversion rate after they've paid US dollars for the lindens. That argument makes no sense.

The facts are pretty simple and it's staggering how people can gas so long over it. Venue owners pay a ton to do this. Performers pay a ton. And then people argue about whether it's valid to throw a fifty cent tip. So you tell me who's the cheapwad. Tip: It doesn't take a graduate degree in advanced mathematics.

So I alienate people and they don't come to my gigs. It's not important as for the most part I play on my own island for my friends. They know I don't expect them to tip anything at all and I damn sure don't charge them to get in. There's no money in it but there's no money in going out to play for you all either so why do it. Is there some idea that I owe it to you or SL or some cosmic force I haven't met yet?

Someone said I shouldn't have said anything but what the hell. I've got nothing to lose but a couple of hundred lindens. I'm sure I'll slash my wrists before sundown over that.

Sure, you're pissed off. You've been going to four and five shows a night and paying less than peanuts for it and now I'm calling you cheap. You've got two options: call me an asshole or consider the possibility that the less than flaccid musical support from the audience is the reason that one performer after the other has dropped out of SL and one venue after the other has gone bankrupt.

Many of the venue owners are my friends and you treat them like total shit, worse than the mat you use to clean your shoes when you go to the show. And then you want a medal for your $200L. Don't hold your breath. It's costing some of them $100 US a night and that's just in performer fees. They don't get even a small fraction of that back. They give you love and you give them nothing.

Again, I speak for no-one but myself. But do get this right: what you tip me is irrelevant as I'm not that good anyway but you treat EVERYONE like this. That's what pisses me off.

This is not some first-year Psychology stunt to publicize my show. I loathe the Beatles and I don't do acoustic. You won't like it.

I am probably not articulating it well, or the nuance isn't being picked up. If you are a FAN ... someone that takes the time to care enough to see certain shows, certain artists, or check out certain places for the variety of music they bring, you have a role in keeping that particular show/artist/venue in SL *IF* you want it to stay around.

I am not saying that anyone *has* to do anything. But if you enjoy something in SL - whatever it is, live music, a particular artist, a particular escort, whatever - you have a role in its continued existence in SL. This role is not compulsory, obviously. But you have a role and if you choose to not help, that is your choice - but don't cry crocodile tears if whatever it is eventually goes away.

yeah... what Zak said......

Cristalle... good to see you at the SLMC forum



or you might


@P2 ... yes! the experience is the same if not better because you get a lot more interaction with the artists and yes! to the headphones.

Nah, I know. I've heard it - lol

But you could actually say that about every creator in SL. If you want them to be around, buy their stuff. Musicians are just in the unenviable position of it pretty much being impossible to break even, due to the effort required for a "one-shot product" and people being used to a different pricing model in SL.
If I were to do a one-off, exclusive scripting job, I'd charge fairly exorbitant amounts for my time and support; something people simply are not willing to pay. So I script and build for fun and the occasional pocket money I get from selling something I made for myself anyway.

This all makes perfect sense to me, and the quoted snippet is a point I was trying to make before, if more obliquely. If it gets to be the case that live musicians expect me to pay more than I'm comfortable paying--that is, more than it's worth to me--then I really don't care whether they perform in-world or not, because I'm not going to see them. If they have generous, well-heeled followers who can meet their expectations, well good for them--they'll just be another one on a long list of in-world things I could do, but choose to do something else instead.

Now, given the apparent difficulty in meeting costs, it may well be that there just aren't enough of those generous well-heeled followers to go around, in which case either there may be too many live musicians, or they may have unrealistic expectations for compensation. This is why recent posts in this thread leave me with doubts about the viability of the whole enterprise of in-world live performance.

But you know what? I plan to go to live jazz tonight. And I plan to tip this performer as usual between L$500 and L$1000 depending how challenging the music is, with extra points for Monk. And maybe it's peanuts, but by all appearances in the past, it's been gratefully received. I guess when it's not enough, I'll do something else on Thursday nights.

You absolutely can say that about every creator in SL. Very few people are willing to expend the kinds of cash to keep large amounts of land or events without seeking some sort of offset or (dare I say it?) profit. There are some places that make a choice to operate completely non-profit, and it's great. But they too need resources and rely heavily on the investment of others to make that burden easier to bear. It's just reality.

SL requires you to devalue your time and talent, no matter WHAT you do in SL. Whether you are a graphic artist, scripter, musician, escort or landlord, you are working for less than what you are worth in SL because valuation skews greatly. But the value of dollars paid to Linden Lab doesn't skew at all!

First off, Amity, let me begin by saying that you are 100% right and no one has any right to try to guilt you into anything. I understand your position completely. In fact, I agree with it. No one makes any decisions about how I spend my money but me and if I don't wanna spend my money, I'm not gonna no matter how much someone tries to guilt me. And btw, a L$100 to L$200 tip is average to good and is usually appreciated by the recipient in every case. It's NOT generally considered peanuts.

That's not why I'm quoting you. I could have chosen any number of posts here to quote, yours was just handy.

A point is being missed by many of the folks answering here (btw, it's awesome to read all of your viewpoints, thank you SO much for taking the time!!).

Ticketed events aren't intended to pay the musicians, they're intended to help venues stay in business by putting more of the financial burden on the end consumer . . . i.e. the audience.

Generally speaking, musicians are being paid, and have been paid historically, primarily by the venues. Currently, an average musician's fee (I am both venue owner and musician manager, so I can speak authoritatively here) is 4k to 5k per hour with the low end coming in at 2k and the high end coming in at 15k. This is a fee paid by the venue to the musician. In addition to this fee, the musician generally makes anywhere from 1k to 5k (or more for the really popular folks) in tips in an hour's performance. On average, most performers get about half of their income from their fan base and about half of their income from the venue owner.

During that same hour, the venue is real lucky to take in 1k to 2k in venue tips and are often accused of 'begging' or worse. Many venues take in way less. There is no other income for a music venue unless the point of the venue is to promote a store, mall or rental property, but that's a different biz model and a different experience for the audience. These venues would probably not be charging admission.

So it's not musicians who would like to see ticketed events fly. It's venue owners. And not so they can make money. So they can continue to bring a fun experience to Second Life for Second Life residents to enjoy and can continue to nurture one of the most exciting developments in the music world since the invention of the radio. What exciting experience? Komu was mentioned earlier. He performs from Japan. So when he played at Rocky Shores, we had a musician in Japan performing interactively, live, in real time, for an audience that spanned the globe. This is new, this is exciting and this is quality (at least most of the time). And it can't be done this way anyplace but Second Life. That's what we venue owners have been spending hundreds of dollars per month to grow.

So when you're asked if you would pay an admission fee or buy a ticket, it's not to pay the musician. It's to cover the costs to the venue who's footing the bill to bring this entertainment (all entertainment is virtual btw) to you, which just happens to include the musician's fee.

So it's not the musicians who are asking this or looking at this option. They're being paid. Not well, but they are. But more and more venues are having to go to a play for tips model or just plain close up shop. Which will mean Second Life will lose a lot of concert opportunities, a lot of musicians will have to leave and worse, a lot of musicians will never get started and Second Life residents will miss out the chance to ever hear them.

But reading this thread, anyone can see, it's not as simple as throwing on a parcel pass or restricting sim access. Until and unless the audience is willing to buy tickets or pay cover charges, they just plain won't fly and it will be left to the venue owners to pay or fold.

If there is no cover charge, then yes.

If someone isn't willing to do something for free then they shouldn't be offering it for free in the first place.

I'll pay a cover charge, but I'm just not going to feel obligated to tip either way. There's just no reason to: either it's done for free or it's done for money in which case just make that obvious by having an entrance fee instead of trying to pressure someone into "voluntarily" tipping.

---

I don't really see why the quality of the experience is relevant either. Nothing I buy comes with that expectation. You can't get an outfit for free and not pay if you don't like it, pay L$200 if you kind of like and pay L$500 if you think it's amazing. You pay (or don't pay) whatever the advertised price of it is and tipping just doesn't come into it at all.

would i pay?

i wouldn't be inclined to do so as i use my tipping to the venue and artists as my allotment for fun that evening. so generally if i paid to see a show, i probably would not be able to tip.
(just budgeting)

I realized I had used the word "musicians" in my post even though the talk originally was about the venues, but didn't go back to edit it. Just take "musicians" as the a catch-all term for those who bring the music to me But my point still stands, and I'd say it's been reinforced by this thread: People do not care about what deals are struck between stream owners, musicians and venues. They pay for the experience. Requiring them to educate themselves before each gig about who pays what is simply not the right way to turn the business model. Should I ask at each concert who provides the stream, since sometimes the venue does, and at other times the musician does, and tip accordingly? Should I ask about the price the venue has paid to get the performer there and have a formula to distribute tips?
If the venues think the money is distributed unfairly between the musician and the venue under the current agreements... then make other agreements.
The other question is then if *enough* is paid to support the live concerts, but it seems to me there's actually two fairly different questions here.

Amity, you're reading far more into this thread than is required.

I was simply asking WOULD YOU. You have quite clearly said no. Thank you for contributing.