Would you pay to attend a live performance?

Actually the long standing SL mindset is more like "everything for nothing" actually.
I've had people IM me and abuse me for charging $5L for 24hours usage of my vehicle rezzing platforms. A large percentage of the population are tightwad cheapskates who expect SL to pay them to be entertained.
If it's not fair to also support the venue then perhaps we need to tip the bands better so they can afford their own venues.
Is $10L too much to gamble on the quality of a band? If I paid $10L and the band sux, I'm not going to create a legal case over 3 cents US, is 3cents US too expensive for an hours entertainment? People will vote with their feet if a band is bad they won't be asked to play again, because the place will be empty by the end of the concert.
People will find the money, they will squeel & howl how poor they are and how they have highspeed internet but can't afford little Johnny's school shoes, but if they really like the music they will find the money.
How people can continue to be motivated to perform when the combined tips is about $500L and the vendors sell 2 extra sets of sunglasses is beyond my comprehension.
I'll tip dancers $20-50L each too if they are doing a decent job.
I'm not a rich bastard by any means, so I realise believe it or not under the bling , lights and sound most performers are worse off finacially than a lot of the people refusing to contribute for entertainment.

OK, I've read through this whole thread, and cooled down considerably, but I still want to vent a little at the folks who seem to feel the need to put quotes around the word live. I know there are probably a number of acts that are running CDs and passing it off as a show, but I know a huge number of performers who belt out every note, wear out their instruments and sweat over their set.

For those cavalierly stating that performers aren't worth anything, if you are a content creator (builder, scripter, clothing/hair or texture designer) what would you charge for a one off custom project that took you a minimum of 2 hours to complete? I'm not talking about something you can turn around and resell yourself, but a one-off for a client? Does it really matter to you if the client can recoup that? Do you do what you can to help them?

Every time I do a 1 hour show I am dealing with that show for a minimum of 2 hours (sending out notices, getting all the gear working and the guitar tuned up, bottle of water in reach, etc.) I also spend a lot of time outside of SL preparing, rehearsing and sometimes writing new material, yes writing, since most of my sets are usually original (including SL based tunes). I know before I started playing regularly in SL my Washburn acoustic was fairly lightly used - this winter I had to put it in the shop for a re-fretting job from all the wear and tear I've put on it, to the tune of about $400USD.

Part of the reason for all this gets buried in history. Live music got its start when Traffic payments and DI were both still around. LL said they were going to do something to replace them, but never have (and likely never will) but that's been the missing piece for the venues for some time.

For scale, please remember @ L$265 / $1us:

L$25 is < $0.10

If a performer is playing for L$2500 then they are making less than $10us - if that's an hour show, they're probably making well less than minimum wage.

L$5000 < $20us and is less than $10USD / hour


The most successful ticketed events I've heard of:

1. Limit the seats to ~40 (in a whole PI)
2. Promise/deliver a no tips experience
3. often have other goodies thrown in.

it's late. I've probably flamed off some folks, but I get really annoyed when I see this attitude that it isn't really "Live" or worth anything.

So how much music do we get elsewhere for your "moneys worth" of 3cents US?
This is also one of those things I see silly about SL dancing, so many people aren't really dancing, they just leave their dance hud on random or click into someone elses chimera, so hence when the music stops or changes tempo they still continue dancing uncorordinated to the music stream. It's great attendinding a concert with someone then finding halfway through they are listening to CD offline and they can't folow the current conversation when it mentions the current music. It's sorta like , saying I'll attend by just sending a cardboard cutout of me with a mobile phone attached.
And I don't care if they are playing live or performing to a CD, each show can be different regardless especially with some voiceover between music that gives us and insit to the artist as well and their appreciation of the audience as long as it's not overdone, I have seen one good artist that will basically greet every audience member at sometime during the concert, that seems to be a little too much for me.

Actually Argus there is a new venue tip jar that does something like that which many venues, including mine are starting to use. It works through color change. Before each show I put the cost of the particular performer into it. The wording on the sign/tip jar starts out red and changes color slowly to green as the donations come in. Once it's a dark green the cost of that performance has been covered by venue tips.

Venues come and go, primarily because people don't know that the major expense involved in putting on live music events is the musician's fee. Most larger venues may recover 35-40% of just the fees in a good month, and that doesn't take into consideration stream costs, staff costs or even tier costs. If a venue puts on an average of 10-15 shows per week at an average fee of 3000 - 5000 per show, the out of pocket cost to the venue owner can add up very very quickly.

.. wow ...

(warning.... long post ahead )

First of all... big thankies to Jo, Honey, Cristalle and all other venue owners for running their venues in the first place!
Secondly ... big thankies to Zak and Klick (breathe Klick!) and the other musicians for bringing their music to SL!
/me waves at all the real music supporters posting in this thread

Thirdly... a few comments I just can't resist replying to

@Markubis: live music performances have already taken off as popular events and your recommendations 1, 2 and 3 are already happening
@Locked: I can't help but say I doubt that your "lot of performances" comes close to the "lot of performances" some other people, including a number of posters in this thread, have attended. It would seem to me you have been to the wrong ones and suggesting that all music performances in SL are simply "not that good" on that basis seems kinda out of place.
@Blot and Tegg ... you can.. he goes by the last name of Duffy

Fourthly.... to all those folks whio can't seem to find the good music out there... I'm not gonna start recommending musicians or venues here because this is not the place, but feel free to contact me inworld sometime, I'll drag you around

Not gonna comment on the "live" thingy coz that's just too silly for words and I too have recently started a (like Honey, often temporary) mute list because of chat spammers

Next... (I'm losing count) back to the original topic! I quite like the comparison with content creators. Venue owners and musicians create content for us to enjoy and it only seems normal to pay for that.
As a bit of a music fan, I go to quite a few gigs and if I'm enjoying myself I always tip both musicians and venues.
Putting on live music is not free and imho it is about time people became aware of the costs involved. Even if the musician plays for tips only, and some (of the greatest) venues and performers do have that sort of arrangment, the venue owner still has to pay to keep the venue running. And while it seems that tipping musicians is a natural thing to do, supporting the place that provides the opportunity for the musician to be there in the first place is not as obvious apparently. You could argue that it's up to the venue owner to bear the cost if they want to run a venue, but it seems to me that it's the listeners who should be paying for the enjoyment they get out of it. One would pay to see live music in RL, why not in SL?
Would I pay a cover charge? Given the amounts Honey is suggesting I probably would, depending on the musician. I go broke on music anyways.
And should music be free to enjoy? Well.... I hope that those who _can_ afford to support musicians and venues will continue to do just that, so that those who _can't_ can continue to enjoy themselves for free.

There's my blonde $L 0.02, feel free to ignore

/me hugs those she would, waves at everybody else and hops

.

I used to run a music venue within SL and the costs were around 60-80k a month on music Alone, yes - i could have gone out and hired a load of new acts who performed for tips only, but being a Live Music fan, i wanted to provide a venue that excelled in the type of act presented.

As much as i would have liked to charge a cover charge for a event, i dont think it would have worked, becuase has soon as someone pays for something - they expect a service. what would i hae done if the sim had crashed? (which it did a few times) - would i have been expected to refund all those that had paid?

I am a advocate of artist splitting tip jars, i use one myself when i DJ or perform Live. even if it is only 10-15% over time it still contributes some of the outgoings. I dont believe Music venues can ever really recover thier costs fully and most people run a music venue out of love for the music.

Ticketing events is also something that i recently discussed for a RL Chairty Concert i am organising in August, where the concert is going to be streamed (video/audio) into SL - a unique event, again - i thik asking someone to pay for a ticket isnt a big deal, but i would have to almost guarantee that the performance would go, without a hitch. in SL - i dont think anyone can promise that.

For those that think Live Music is rubbish, want some recommendations, are interested in performing, i reccomend SLMC Music Forum - http://slmc.myfastforum.org/

Well I am certainly glad that I decided to follow this this thread, apart from being revealing, it has altered my attitudes, as I gather it has done with others.

One additional comment that I would add, since my first post, is that currently the venue cannot control certain features which mar the performance for me. Spam and accessory rich avatars have already been mentioned, but something that I find difficult is maintaining a good view ... I will position myself so I am not cramping anyone else, then find a ruddy great dancing dragon rez in front of me ! I adjust my position, only to start bumping and blocking other people (and yes, sometimes I do wish the ground would swallow me up !). The camera controls offer some assistance, but if i am dancing with a friend, this is not always the solution. I appreciate this is pot luck, but felt I wanted to add it anyway !

Something else I appreciated last night was a performer who went to great lengths to highlight the venue costs, ie the subject of this thread.

In future, the meagre tips I am able to give, will be skewed to the venue.

@ Sally: My main raison d'etre for being in SL is to enjoy the music scene, so, whilst I can find my own way round, and discover delights at my own pace, I may take advantage of your offer inworld, if time differences allow ... (UK time here)

I have to admit that I'm thrilled to see this discussion here!! I've been running live music venues in SL for nearly 18 months (Willow Point Park, Rocky Shores, Cascadia Harmonics) and have had the pleasure of hosting nearly all the 'greats' mentioned in this thread as well as so many other 'greats' not mentioned (Montian Gilruth, Skinny Shepherd, DimiVan Ludwig, Nad Gough, Max Kleene, Rookie Rossini, Jean Munro, Kim Seifert, Silas Scarborough . . geez, I could go on all day).

In real life, I'm a business analyst and accountant, so I keep track of numbers. A year ago, roughly 50% of the audience was tipping the musician (whom I was paying between 1k and 3k). Less than 5% of the audience was tipping the venue. We at the SLMC have been working for nearly a year now to raise awareness of this and many other challenges facing the SL Music Community. Now, roughly 75% of the audience is tipping the musician (average fees are now 3k-8k) and nearly 10% are tipping the venue.

My venues have had to adopt a strictly play for tips policy. I present approximately 20 hours of music per week, and except for a recent break to restructure my biz (which is when I went to the play for tips policy), I've been presenting that many hours for well over a year. On the current play for tips basis, my venue almost (but not quite) breaks even but at least I'm not spending hundreds of US dollars every month to keep it open. Who's suffering? The musicians. Most who played for me for a fee are still playing for me for tips only. They had to eat that difference and imo, that's not fair either. But it kept the venue open.

How many jobs are there in SL where a person can expect to put 30-40 hours per week in and almost break even? Yes, running a venue is a job, just like running a store. Only the content I create is atmosphere. There's more to this job than attending the show or even building the venue.

I've heard complaints here about folks spamming the audience and the audience needing to mute them. This isn't allowed at my venues. I or my host take the time to im the spammer and nicely point out them that, although we appreciate their enthusiasm, they are making it difficult for the rest of the audience to show theirs. This has never occurred to most of them and they settle down immediately. And all musician managers are told, one tip/group join request per quarter hour maximum. We also ask that the musicians mention tipping the venue on mic only once per set, not more.

This is only one example of the things a venue host is doing whilst you're enjoying the show to help assure that you do ENJOY the show. We're not there playing, we're there working. And there are lots of tasks that need doing to line up the show in the first place if the show is going to go smoothly in SL. And yes, aside from rolling restarts and closed logins, it's possible to come very close to guaranteeing a smooth show in SL. My sim hasn't crashed during a show in many months.

Sorry for the long post. If you want to learn more about what goes on behind the SL Music scene or find lots of music lovers and musicians, visit the SLMC Forum at

http://slmc.myfastforum.org/index.php

And if you skipped the rest of my long winded post, take away this one point; running a live music venue is content creation as surely as creating a prim skirt. And it takes a lot more work.

There is a guy that plays SL named BubbaC John who plays my club (and others), and he's a good friend of mine. Bubba sounds a lot like Elvis, has won many RL Elvis impersonation contests, and recently found out that he's actually a cousin of Elvis'. Might want to try and catch him sometime. He'll definitely be at my club on July 12 - he's playing my club's 6 month anniversary (yes, beating the odds! woohoo!).

Ticious, I have not had the privilege of meeting you, but would enjoy doing so some day. I appreciate you posting in this thread. It has given even me a new awareness!

Somehow I never have this problem, and find the mouse cam controls (alt-zoom and control-alt-pivot) are fine for switching back and forth between performer and other things in the surroundings. One thing I "discovered" recently is moving my cam to where the performer would be looking, back out into the audience. (I know: obvious. But somehow I'd never done it, and it can be a pretty cool view.)

In fact, although my cam is usually on the stage, you'll probably find my avatar sitting on the ground somewhere out of the way--just over 20m from the band manager.

I'm not fond of the idea of charging for entrance. One thing I like about SL is the possibility to just drop in and experience something, and discover new things, and I would be less inclined to do so if I had to pay upfront. If somebody threw you a landmark saying, "Hey, check this cool sim", would you pay to teleport into it to see what it was?

As for tipping the venue vs. the performer, I'd tend to say that really isn't the visitor's problem. They don't know anything about which arrangements are made; whether tips are split or upfront fees are paid, and who's providing the stream.
You tip for being at an event. How the money is distributed between those involved in the event is really not something you should care about. You don't pay the ticket agency, the guitarist, the drummer and the venue separately at a real-life concert, either; that is worked out internally based on who gets what from the arrangement. (PR, crowds drawn to secondary income sources, etc).
So I'd strongly suggest using one tip jar with whatever split is arranged internally.

On a tangent, I'm always a bit on the fence about how much to tip. On one level, I know about the time and effort required to set up a show, and how the L$ converts to peanuts in RL. On another, it's inside the context of SL, where a couple of hundred L$ can literally be weeks worth of inworld income.

At this point, I'm wondering how many club owners who hire performers are reading this thread, and how many would be willing to take the stand that if a performer plays your club, the tips have to be split, say 80/20. Anyone?

How many performers are willing to do that?

It is going to take people united for that goal, for this to become the common practice.

I know Silas made a script that is used by a fair few artists (myself being one) which automatically sets up splitting 25% to the venue. which may not be a lot individually, but if we just quickly do a bit of maths.

10 x 1 hours shows a week
20 people attend each show
Each person donates 100L$ = 2k per show
which if 25% went to the venue means the venue will bring in 20k a month....

Correlating to RL, I have always believed that restaurant tips were split amongst all the staff, not just the waiter/waitress ... pro rata I think this is a fairer system (but I am not an owner).

I am going to try a few things and see what works best. My new venue will have those green lines around it for premium shows so folks buy a pass to get in. The artist can have a guest list. For Jams I will have the split tips device up and free entry. I am also working to develop a fund made up of monies from sponsors looking for exposure and advertising venues. These funds will be used to cover the musicians' fees.

I volunteer for a RL coffeehouse (333 Coffeehouse, Annapolis, MD) and pay (usually) when I'm not volutneering US$ 10 for about three hours of live performance. Almost all the CDs (maybe all) that I have purchased in the last five years or so were from live performers at the coffeehouses or festivals.

There are at least five acoustic folk/amplified folk or close in SL that I would pay L$ 200 to listen to. I would speculate L$ 100 for unknowns if their music was described accurately enough. My wife and I have spent more than one evening listening to live music from SL over the full FIOS cable from VErizon. That said, I also know that they have a problem drawing more than 10 people from their own lists to a free performance, so that would be a consideration.

Probably need to get some master lists going to make it work, where people could sign on and get the announcements from multiple performers in a genre and the announcements would go to hundreds of avs.

Thank you for wording this eloquently and succinctly in a way I wished I would have. I have yet to see anyone come on the forums and make a blanket statement about how bad clothing designers or skin creators are, and I think it's rude to make blanket statements about live music performers, as well. Of course, we're entitled to our opinions, but to make denigrating statements about an entire group of content creators in our world is....well it's not right.

I want to apologize again, this time directly to Honeybear for somewhat derailing her thread. A bit of clarification on my answer to the original question. For many of the same reasons others have put forth, even as big a supporter of music in SL, I am not inclined to pay a cover. I do not always know how long I can stay. One never knows if the sim will hold up, etc. I tip the artist and the venue, quite generously I believe, depending on how much fun I have, how much I enjoyed the artist, and how long I stay there. I recently tipped an artist 800L and the club 600L, because I was there for most of the show.

As a DJ, I feel guilty when a club does not do well when I spin. Part of my duty, is to bring people in to the club. That's part of why I get paid. The other part is, obviously, to ensure the patrons that do show up have a good time. I've donated portions of my fee back to the club tip jar on an evening where I felt that I was more of a drain on a club than a help. Fortunately this is infrequent.

I wish all club owners success. It is a brutal job, and many times thankless. I mean, these poor souls have to deal with musicians and prima donna DJs for chrissakes!! And I won't even go into the drama with hosts, dancers, etc....lol. It can be a lot of fun though, which is why the club owners I work for do it. It is certainly not for the money.

As an additional comment, I strongly suspect that those who'd be willing to pay for entrance are the same ones who are already tipping. -And likely tipping more than you'd dare set the entrance fee to.

for me it would depend on the artist. Is it someone famous or up and coming? If it is an up and coming, I would only pay if I had seen them perform previously probably.

It's been my experience that, when a performer splits 20% of their tips to me (which is the usual rate when tips are shared), my overall venue tips for the hour drop by anywhere from 30-50%. In the end, I'm much better off when the audience decides independently how much to tip each entity.

Here' why. . . Joe Audience normally tips the musician L$200 and the venue L$100. He hears the musician is splitting their tips (there are lots of tippers who will feel cheated if this is not disclosed, btw). So he tips the musician L$300 (L$60 of which gets split to the venue) and nothing to the venue because the venue has been taken care of. The venue just lost L$40. Then there's the folks who would tip L$200 to each normally. Here the venue loses even more. And telling Joe Audience the split rate won't help. He's there to enjoy the music and dance with his lady friend, not to do math.

Add to that the fact that the venue may suck where the performer may be awesome or vice verse. Tip splitting forces the audience member to pay both, whether they want to or not. Most audience members, given this situation, tip no one.



Some performers are not only willing, they're insistant (*hugs* you know who you are!). But this is not the solution it appears on the surface. Like I say, I find that I recieve less support with this arrangement than without it. So in short, tip sharing is not a panacea for this problem. Audience awareness and choice is.

For the reasons stated, I will always discourage tip splitting at my venue and will never (though I should know better than to say never *wink*) require tip splitting.

I'm not clear, Crighton, is the performer to thank you or would you prefer the individual to prostrate himself/herself when you offer a couple of quarters. For $200L, of course I would rename my first-born as that would be almost a dollar.

Naturally, for $1000L, I'd be building a statue for you and I'm talking RL marble. You see, at $1000L per gig I will only have to play about six thousand gigs to pay for my hardware. I usually do three gigs a week so that means in two thousand weeks, I'm home free. Forty years will go by in a flash, right?

However, that means I'd have nothing to pay for strings, equipment replacement, cable bills or any of that but I'm a performer, I should just suck it up because the show must go on, especially if it's for people who couldn't do arithmetic even if armed with an HP scientific calculator and step by step instructions.

My opinion doesn't represent any other SL musician or organization. I'm the bad one.

Yes, and it's about time those non-tipping pulled their weight to some degree if they want to enjoy the same performers at venues that we can't afford to pay for alone. There's too many freeloaders and leeches in this world.

Judging by the nastimess contained in that post, you don't deserve anything for strings, etc.

This really was unnecessary, Silas. Crighton was snarky at first but as he has explained, he's a passionate supporter of music, and respects those who do music other than what he likes. And he was a bigger man than most and apologized for his snobbish comments. And to be honest, most venues would love to have people that tip the way he does, even when he's not into the performance.