Hypocrisy or Overreaction to an RP Region?

This is something in the episode that was off-skew as well, imo. From the OP's post, he was an INVITED GUEST of either a resident or at least one well known to that community. From the OP, I don't know if this person tried to explain the situation, but imo, the onus was on the "invitee" to mediate the situation one way or another.

In one Gorean sim I used to inhabit, I was involved more than once in some IM exchanges with another resident when a guest with me was not in some way up to the other person's perceived sim standards. The interesting thing there was, I had 12 years of Gorean experience and a rather vast working knowledge of the books and the person with the issue generally was way off base. Anyway, back to the point, when I was the "inviter" to a strict sim, I placed myself between anyone else and the guest and the guest never knew a discussion had even taken place.

/me holds myself back ... with grave difficulty.

Heh... well, I thought slightly formal Victorian attire (no top hat or excesses) would be acceptable honestly -- it's rather timeless and there were nouveau riche in Berlin at that time. And a 30s frock that could easily be seen at a Swing Club (although that's more in the late 20s I suppose) should have been acceptable. My lady even changed her hair to match the era. Ahhh well.

As for our friend -- in her defence, she did encourage us (respectfully, in private chat) that we should change attire. That was when I was ready to leave but after a little discussion, including our friend who agreed the rules should be a little more lax and that she was in conversation with the owner in that regard too, we pushed forward. In hindsight, yes, we should have left.

It's like the Dune sim (if it still exists). I desperately wished to see it, being a huge fan, but did not at the time have the money or inclination to suit up, so to speak.

I have to inject here that the residents of most RP sims I've visited, of whatever flavor, have generally been extremely polite and welcoming. If they don't provide an "Observer" tag, and I'm not acquainted or equipped for their RP, I change my own tag to say "Visitor: OOC". Even the regular residents, not official greeters, have usually been helpful.

In some sims they simply ignore observers, which is also fine with me.
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I have a passing acquaintance with the leading force behind the Berlin sim, Jo Yardley, while another very good friend is quite heavily involved in setting up educational materials for the sim, so I have a bit of background and context on this. I am not going to "take sides" on this for the simple reason that I don't really have enough information, but I can tell you what I do know.

Jo is, in RL, someone who is both very knowledgeable, and quite fanatical, about the period. Her projects have been featured on Dutch TV -- I'd give you the YouTube URL to the story, but it would probably be against the ToS rules on disclosure to do so here. She has worked VERY VERY hard to produce a realistic and accurate representation of the Berlin of the Weimar era.

My own experiences at Berlin have been that a rather loose form of RP is encouraged, but I have never been chastised for stepping out of character, or out of the period. I have a flapper dress (from Virtual Harlem: quite lovely, I recommend it highly) which I wear there, so THAT is not an issue for me. But I have never witnessed ANYONE being threatened with a ban there, or even told to step back into period. Nor have I ever had an encounter with the police there.

What I THINK is happening is this: the traffic at the sim is up ENORMOUSLY since it appeared in the SL showcase. The "inconsistencies" you are seeing there are almost certainly a result of the flood of people who have been visiting daily over the last week. I imagine that Jo and her staff are having a very difficult time keep things under control.

Is it possible that the response of the Polizei is an overreaction based on frustration?

When I have visited Berlin -- which I do reasonably frequently -- I have always found it very welcoming, and have never felt overly confined by the "rules." In fact, I have barely ever paid attention to them; my own RP there has always been desultory, in fact (I really don't much get into RP). So while I can't speak directly to the OP's experience, I can say that I think that a "reasonable" amount of compliance to the posted guidelines should be more than adequate to allow you to enjoy what is really a very very nice, and highly educational, simulation.

That's been my usual experience, too, Nika. In fact, on most occasions when Daros and I have dropped into a new RP sim and, after a brief look around, decided to remove the OOC tags and go for it, someone has come over and engaged us in RP pretty quickly. I love that experience: fleshing out our characters on the fly as we roleplay for the first time in a new area, and if there *are* roleplayers in a sim, they're usually more than happy to interact with newcomers, and pull them in with IC mentions of current storylines and happenings in the sim.

Thank you for the information, and while profile reading in the little waiting area, I did glean this. And I can utterly respect the desire to create an immersive experience, but there is such a thing as potentially biting the hand that could feed you.

There is a massive difference, as someone else said, between my showing up in my fox form in a uniform ready to cause trouble, and doing the best I can without having to resort to wearing something I would not be caught dead in (apologies, but the freebie attire is not something I'd ever wear, even if it was for 15 minutes while seeing what my friend had created -- yes, this is a personality conflict that I'm sure others may chastise me for).

Oh, and since you mentioned it, after I left Berlin, I switched to fox form, wore the same suit and took my Lady to Virtual Harlem where we were treated well and enjoyed ourselves immensely. In fact, I cannot wait to go to an event at the Cotton Club there (Lady and I danced all night alone after their previous event closed for the evening). Guess who gets my donation funds in future and where I spent my money last night?

Agreed that it is a problem. And I don't doubt for a moment that you tried to be accommodating. My guess is that things will settle down there once the crowds drawn by the Showcase feature have thinned out a bit. But I haven't been there since it appeared there, so I am really guessing here. It will be interesting to see how things are when I return.


Virtual Harlem really IS amazing, and vastly underused, I think. An RL college or university course has been doing "poetry slams" in the Apollo Theater there, with readings of the Harlem Renaissance poets. I think you can contact Bryan Mnemonic in-world if you are interested, or check the SLED list.

The Cotton Club is cool, but I actually prefer The Savoy for dancing.

Hello all.

I am the creator and owner of the 1920s Berlin Project and felt I had to come here and explain a few things.

From the very beginning we wanted to give the visitors a realistic and authentic experience, this was also put in the welcome note and we gave free authentic outfits away.
Many people however don't read, understand or simply ignore our rules.
Ruining the experience for others.

That is why we now have such a long list of rules, at the beginning there were just a few but as people kept misunderstanding them and ignoring them, we had to keep adding to it.
I thought that 'Authentic and realistic, No Nazi's' would be enough, sadly it wasn't.
Every letter on our notecard is there for a reason and put there because of our experiences with visitors.
Perhaps I should add that as well to the notecard, explain why there are so many!
Don't blame us for all the rules, blame those who kept misunderstanding them, ignoring them, etc.

Berlin is a ongoing project, not that old and not yet finished, when we were chosen for showcase our visitor number suddenly went up from 30 visitors (usually the same) a day to 200+ a day.
Visitors ignoring or not understanding the rules flooded the place much to the dismay of the other visitors looking for an authentic experience.
Being too busy with running the place I asked some of our locals to keep an eye on our visitors and if needed, give them advice, help them with their outfits, etc.

I think it is more then reasonable to have a dress-code and some rules for such a place.
After all I want to create an experience, not just a nice place to look at.
This is my job in RL too, I tell movie people, theater people and all sorts of companies how to dress authentically, nobody ever called me a Nazi...
I work for remembrance events, museums and with former resistance fighters and veterans.
One of the motives behind the project is to show what the Nazi's ruined when they took over, show how people were dancing on a volcano.
By looking around you can see little details of the dark clouds to come.
As a matter of fact, the only visitors that I have banned without a second thought were the ones in Nazi outfits or behaving in a Nazi way.
As a historian I can say that comparing someone who asks to look a certain way when you enter their 'home' with the jackboot bunch, a bit off.

There are lots of night clubs where people are asked to dress a certain way and according to many of our more frequent visitors I am even being too soft.
Sometimes I turn a blind eye to 40s and 50s clothes, especially when I am too busy or when the visitor is friendly, calm, polite and Berlin is empty.

Most visitors understand, agree to and applaud the rules we set up, adapting adds to the experience.
When during their visit they see unauthentic or unrealistic avatars, I get the complaints.
And often I am too busy working and do not have time to repeat everything that is already in the notecard and explain it again and again and again.
I am sorry if someone caught me at a moment when I was not patient.

Anyway, I think or hope that you understand that we have these rules and why.
Also why there are so many and how they came to be.
When you visit other historical sims you may receive the same reception, I know I have.

The 1920s Berlin Project is NOT a 100% roleplay sim, it is a experience.
That is why we only ask avatars to look authentic and realistic, we don't force them to only talk about pre 1933 subjects, follow 1920s etiquette etc.
There are no meters, signs, titles or huds people must wear.
And we don't mind people discussing the 20s in a modern way, or even talk about modern subjects.
It is all about the look, the experience of walking trough 1920s Berlin.
I LOVE it when people compare the 20s to today, discuss the 20s for what they are; history.
I want people to learn, discuss, etc.
You can't do that when you are pretending to be a 1920s Berliner who after all probably knows little about what is to come.
I DO NOT want people to be RPing all the time, I want them to talk about whatever they like.

If you have visited Berlin and felt I mistreated you, I do apologize.
If you feel one of the people there has misbehaved please write me a notecard, explaining what happened and why you feel mistreated.
Perhaps you were right and one of my friends was wrong, I will then try and solve it.
Although building a city is already enough work...

As I said, we need people to keep those who want to cause trouble or ignore our rules to leave or adapt.
For our other many and satisfied visitors sake.
Many of the people involved are historians, so they may not see a outfit as fitting as you do.
In the cases I observed there were friendly discussions and suggestions between our people and the visitors.
I had people walking around in Western outfits, 50s dresses, modern sunglasses, handbags, etc, etc.
Often convinced they were indeed authentic.
That is why we created the freebies, in many cases removing the much too long hair of the man is what makes me like the cap even more

I am a very easy person although, I admit, slightly very extremely obsessed with history, authenticity and trying to recreate reality.
But when confronted by friendly, calm, polite visitors who asked if they could just walk around quickly and that they would leave if other people came, I welcomed them with open arms.
I have given private tours to people with wings, tails, giants, etc.

And if I had a message from someone who would really like to visit Berlin in their unrealistic or unauthentic outfit, perhaps with a group, I am sure we could have found a way.
I even suggested to some that we could organize a rule-free day so that everyone could have a look.
It is fine by me, but without communication it is a bit hard to hear people their opinion.

I can understand that sims have rules and that I am perhaps not welcome in some in my 1920s outfit.
To me a visit to places such as Victoriana or Deadwood can be ruined when I bump into something or someone I simply would not have bumped into had I really been visiting the past.

To make a short story long,
If you visit our sim, follow our rules and still think you were not treated correctly, PLEASE send me a notecard.
I have super powers but can't be everywhere at once, follow every discussion and stand at the gate all the time.
Situations that I didn't witness I can judge, outfits I didn't see I can't disagree or agree with.

We have many visitors, who visit, follow the rules, become regulars.
They mostly wear the freebies outfits and like them.
Yes they are common and daily, not everyone looked like a flapper, hollywood moviestar or cabaret burlesque dancer in the backstreets of Berlin, especially not outside in the rain.
The shops we have sell very authentic outfits for those who don't like the 'boring' old common dress.
We usually allow flapper dresses and 20s outfits although many are not authentic, much to short, etc.
And once you reach our night club and climb the stage, feel free to drop your coat and dance in that Cabaret outfit...

One final thing, we're not that old, I am not that old, I've only been in SL for a few months and never build anything or ran a sim till I started this project.
And this one is not yet ready, we keep working on it.

One more final thing... yes I write as confusing as I talk or er the other way around.
Everyone and I mean EVERYONE is more then welcome to talk to me, complain, etc.
Send me a notecard!
And EVERYONE is welcome to visit Berlin, except Nazi's.
But if you are someone who wants to come in a unauthentic or unrealistic outfit, please talk to me about visiting when Berlin is empty or about the possibility of organizing a rule-free day.

If you have suggestions on making the rules shorter and better, without people finding loopholes and ignoring them again, let me know.
It seems that the current version has brought the cases of incidents down a lot, but not the visitor numbers.

Free virtual lukewarm beer for everyone.

Then I would suggest a separate region where one can buy appropriate attire or a notecard of landmarks with outfits and shops that are acceptable. While I'm not trying to be a fashion snob (well, I am... yes, my ego is in full force now), SL offers very little by way of historically accurate 1920s Berlin attire. I find this a very odd thing to be so utterly strict on.

Moreover, the senses are all encompassing. Your focus may be visual, but for many, an immersive experience can live or die by sounds, conversation, avatar antics and similar.

Your idea of immersive and recreation differs from others. That is SL. But what is also SL is tolerance, acceptance, and open mindedness. There is much to explore and much for everyone of every interest. And the best thing about SL -- we all have the choice to visit, leave, donate or not to whom we wish. Freedom of choice is a very powerful thing.

Just a few thoughts.

FYI, just went there in a Nonna Hedges 1920's-30's long flapper tea dress and looked around. It seemed to be fairly quiet and I'm going to go back. I did adjust my height [which is not optimum for most dresses and jewelry designed by some of SL finest period conscious artists] and suffered through the Linden Butt syndrome my suggestion would be a list of places or a map of the area to help newcomers get a grip on what is there to be seen. My impression was that it was a shopping area with some very nice offerings, which is why I'm going back to see it again.

In a way, you can say that 1920s Berlin created Godwin's theory.

Personally, I wouldn't go to the sim because of the evil it eventually spewed on the world. I'd be thinking of that uneasily the whole time I was there.

Yes perhaps a seperate entrance is needed but we do give a free authentic outfit away so it would cost only a few clicks to be able to wonder berlin and visit the shops without being hassled.
I would love a roleplay sim but in the end education comes first and I feel that restricting people in talking about history and what came after 20s Berlin would not be a good thing for furthering the knowledge of the city and the period.
That is also why we have a 'education factory' where people can watch modern documentaries about the era.

Freedom of choice is indeed powerful, especially when I allow people to enter my own imagination
But when managing a place with many visitors and many regular guests you also have to make concessions.

We sell a map at the entrance, there is a little sign there that we created because so many got lost, not being used to narrow streets and such.
You have only seen the square, behind that is a hotel/restaurant, theater, apartment block and our night club with original 1920s (mostly) German music.

@ Scylla Rhiadra and Argus Collingwood who offered ideas about its apparel: many thanks! (Been searching for an appropriate wear to fit the theme, and has even tried to do a mix-and-match with my existing wardrobe; did not look convincing enough. ._.)

@ Jo Yardley: thank you for your understanding.

The SIM hasn't spewed anything on anybody, and in fact has an anti-nazi spin.

I'm not a big bible fan, but ... visiting the sins of the fathers on the children? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you ...

(edit: actually, the Golden Rule predates the Bible, and nearly every belief system has it in some form)

IRL, I'm not familiar with Berlin, but have always wanted to go. Meunchen (Munich) is a lovely city.
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I'll be right back! Nice meeting you all and folks, do visit the sim as the textures of the builds are great! Flapper wear works great and do not forget to get the rolling pin!!

Very thoughtful and very fair post, and I am so glad you wrote it. Thanks!

I can be blunt at times so I will just say - The number of people who feel a grand sense of entitlement as a guest on someone else's sim and on someone else's dime never ceases to amaze me. You must be a very patient person.

I will pay your sim a visit, it sounds very interesting. (I will read rules immediately and change into the freebie outfit until I can shop for mo' better.)

Don't wave that rolling pin at me missy!
Lol.
/me rubs her head thats been hit too often with that thing already

I'm interested to see how this all works out.

Elric's opinions stand fairly high with me... he's been around a long time, is a reasonable chap, and deals with a lot of these issues himself.

Jo, if you can find accord with him, you will have won a lot more ground than you might at first realise.

And perhaps the lesson of the Wiemarer Republik... is that what happened to it, could happen *anywhere*. Guard its true history well.

* * * * *

Now, to return some balance to the thread, I offer this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAAFMKWHfAY

Okay, do carry on...

Max is Superb, I've met him in Amsterdam where he did a show.
Not suprisingly I liked his original 1920s and 1930s music more
And yes, his outfit would be acceptable in our berlin

BTW, can one get hair like his ANYWHERE in SL??
Proper, vintage, real short (short sides and back) hair for men is very hard to find.

Just a comment on this: Obviously, it doesn't work.
Those who "get it", get it. Those who flout the rules will do so no matter *how* many rules you write. The only thing you gain from writing huge, aggressive lists of rules is coming off hostile and dismissive to those who actually care to *read* those rules, which are fewer and fewer as the rules grown longer and more overbearing.

As a side note, I have a house cat avatar for going visiting themed sims without having to invest in the right clothes just to take a peek. -There are few places a normal cat is really out of character.

To be fair - how do you know her rules list is "aggressive?"

I hear what you are saying - some people are put off by rules. But I disagree with you in their effect. Those who will ignore rules will tend to ignore the list completely. Those who want to do the right thing will appreciate knowing what to do.

Loved the gown on the woman in that video.

Yes perhaps we should take a new look at the rules, make them a bit shorter and to the point, see if they work etc.
A house cat would be a very common sight in 1920s Berlin and is thus absolutely welcome if its a real cat, not a human cat like being, or a cat with wings, 6 foot tall, etc
Careful of the streetboys though!
And I've been told someone spotted a dog here once.

Well you could start World War III early.