Males playing female avatars

Ah, OK, the public/private thing ... (VERY strong deja vu here LOL) ... I agree, doing it in public is not good, but not for the reason you believe. Doing it in public fails to take account of a passers'-by (passer-by's?) right not to witness the act (and this goes for any sexual act, not just the kinky stuff). They cannot give or withhold informed consent if you just shove it in their face.

However for many people, exhibitionism and voyeurism turn out to be important facets of their sexuality, hence BDSM and sex clubs, both RL and SL. These are not public in the same way though, I'm sure you would agree. Teleporting to such a place (or not leaving if you end up there accidentally) is giving implicit consent to the possibility of witnessing sexual acts, BDSM play or both.

I don't like to see anybody literally "doing it in the road" whether what they are doing involves industrial machinery and lots of custard or a meadowful of flowers and an earful of sweet nothings.

I don't accept that seeing everyday expressions of BDSM coupledom (collars etc.) is any more "harmful" than seeing two gay men walking along holding hands.

I dunno, this is news to me!!!



So you are saying we have to have dungeons. I guess most BDSMers would probably agree to that But I really don't see why it is a problem in the open as long as it is advertised as such and adults-only. As I've said before, I do not believe that sociopaths require any encouragement whatsoever and therefore I don't see this as an issue.



True, and I wouldn't advocate that people in SL randomly drop into any public place (even if it's adults-only) and try to do BDSM. But there should be easily accessible places in Adults-only places for that activity, if people want do do it.



No, I know you love me despite yourself, Scylla And I love you despite the occasional shears reference



But that's impossible! Unless you got one of those mainframe computers that takes up your whole basement, maybe. Probably not even then.

And no matter what, I am not responsible for the actions of others.

At least the one about the offensive broad has been closed.

LMAO

LOL, yeah . . .


I agree with this absolutely. It's another facet of the same issue, IMHO.


Depends on the place, I guess. On a private island estate where there is no chance of someone wanting to go there for some OTHER reason, yeah, agreed.

On the other hand, Zindra (to state only the most obvious example) is home to sexuality of ALL sorts, rather jammed in together in a hodge-podge. There isn't a "BDSM Quarter" there, and someone who is there for vanilla sex CAN accidentally wander into something rather different. What's more (as others in this forum have emphasized frequently), Zindra could at least potentially include much that isn't necessarily "adult" at all, or at least not sexual. So I think that something more is required there to keep BDSM and the like out of the "public" eye, both for the reasons that you give, and those that I state. TPing to Zindra should not in itself constitute an agreement to be exposed to anything that is there.


We may have to agree to disagree on this. Two gay men holding hands are publicly expressing their love for each other, without any implicit message about subservience, gender inequality, or violence. A D/s couple ARE publicly expressing their love for each other, but they are ALSO communicating fairly explicitly a view about gender relations that reinforces (intentionally or not) exactly the kind of stereotypes about women that we have spent the last half century trying to purge from the popular media. If you saw an advertisement that clearly and unironically depicted women as subservient to men, would you think that THAT was ok?

TP'ing to a particular parcel, yes. But wandering off in any direction requires that you are ready to view *anything*... Blondin gave the OK for my place to have public sex, and although it is pretty isolated, it can still be viewed from other parcels if you look just right




There are just as many men who are subservient to women or to other men. So there is no reason to take one example of a women collared to a man as a grand gesture of the oppression of women.

And no, I do not like to see things in the media which are sexist, unless they are very funny. That is different from individual expression of gender and sexuality, which everyone should be free to express however they choose.

Ask around.


I don't disagree. As long as it is set up in such a way that unsuspecting and unwilling passersby aren't exposed to it. The whole Zindra thing was so poorly executed and thought out that it is all but useless in this regard, but it was at least thinking in the right direction.


Ye gods . . .


ARGGGHHH!!!

/me stamps my foot petulantly.

I didn't SAY that you were "responsible." You aren't personally "responsible" for crime, world hunger, or the environmental crisis either, but that doesn't mean that you are just going to walk away from them, does it????????

LOL you don't live in London

I see we mostly agree on the public/private thing, but I have remembered, I think, where we fell out last time. You don't see BDSM as a sexuality in the same way as being gay, straight, transgendered or whatever, IIRC, whereas I do. You were happy to see sex in public as long as it was vanilla, whereas I felt that if one sort of sex should be out of sight then it all should be? Have I got that right?

All I really have to go on is my own experience: I know I have always been "this way" and for years I felt bad about myself because of it. It was a tremendous relief to learn that there are loads of people like me and it gave me the courage to seek the sort of relationships which would, finally, work for me. I know that this doesn't hold true for everybody who explores these things in SL: lots of them are just exploring and experimenting, which is fine. Same as all the people experimenting with being lesbian. Some of them will discover that it was "them" all along while for others, it's just a phase.

Aww, you're so cute when you're mad )))))



OK, so I do my part in what little way I can. I say "sexism is wrong" while I spank the crap out of my girlfriends. And I encourage them to become dominating businesswomen who kick some ass and fix some of the nonsense you have mentioned. See, that's why you love me )))))

London sounds awesome

I saw a werewolf drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's. His hair was perfect.

I disagree. If Zindra were RESTRICTED to BDSM or depictions of violent sexuality, I might agree. But it isn't: it features all sorts of content. Choosing to "wander around" is NOT giving explicit permission to be exposed to "*anything* In this sense, Zindra is just another mainland continent, but with sex. ALL kinds of sex.


I'm not sure I buy that there are "just as many." I sure haven't seen that. In any case, I will agree that the issues are different with same sex D/s pairings or ones in which the more traditional gender roles are reversed. But that doesn't obviate the particular message that is communicated when a male is shown to dominate a woman. If milenia of history had featured men being subservient to women, the issues would be different, but you can't simply ignore that depictions of subservient women speaks to an historical reality that just isn't applicable to the other cases.


Again, I disagree. But this may be one of those cultural divide things. In the social and political tradition that I come from (largely European, I suppose), we are more willing to sacrifice certain "rights" if it is deemed that they harm society as a whole. It's the "you can't yell 'FIRE!' in a packed theatre thing. There ARE always some limits to freedom of expression in society. The issue is where you draw the line.

Also, I might note that not all of this material in SL is an "individual expression": a great deal of what we are talking about IS commercial content.

Finally . . . we are skirting Gor here. Possibly because it is harder to defend along the lines you have chosen?

I would suggest that vanilla sex is not the reason most people go to Zindra. Vanilla sex is still very much permissible in Mature regions. Unless the common definition of vanilla sex is considerable kinkier than my understanding.

Even in Zindra, I believe you'll find most of those activities are mostly behind closed doors or limited to the regions their owners have set aside for them.

It's not like Zindra is wall to wall open air debauchery.

Agreed, and it's one of the things I dislike about the city area on Zindra. But there also isn't a "gay quarter" or a "lesbian quarter" - the whole thing is jumbled up. I'd love to see different districts evolve on Zindra, but until they do, I fail to see why BDSM alone should be relegated to private estates.


Except that at least half of the couples I see in RL are a female Domme with a male sub or slave. I will admit that the proportions seem a little skewed the other way in SL, perhaps because of the influence of Gor or perhaps because of lots of RL men running female avatars, I don't know. I have struggled with the same anxieties as you about the political correctness of this, but for me it was more urgent as it was my sexuality which I had somehow to come to terms with.

Now Smith thinks London's full of sex fiends, when it's also a centre of art and science and industry. There's some lovely architecture, Smith. I recommend visiting the Tate Gallery and the British Museum of course. Take a good look at some of teh most recent buildings going up and be sure to visit Trafalgar Square, coz it's amazing fun.

You've gotta eat at "15" and teh "Gay Hussar" (which is NOT what YOU think it is)

Wait, aren't you proving my point? Zindra has all kinds of sex. If you are sensitive about what kind you wanna encounter, don't go wandering off, yes?



In Columbus, Ohio, one of the great cities in America, you will see plenty of collared people who are lesbian and gay. It depends on where you hang out. I also lived near SF for a long time.



Are we back to this unwitting communication thing again Also I thought we agreed many threads ago to let bygones be bygones



Well my people are Sicilian. Enough said? ;P LOLz



Well I don't know much about Gor really but from what I understand of it, it is a fantasy world and people can do what they want in their fantasy worlds without it being correlated to reality in my estimation.

Certainly they meet your requirement of isolation, because I have never once accidentally encountered a Gor area in 4+ years of being a perv in SL.

If I am lucky enough to visit London in the near future, I will be making a beeline to certain Universities

I wish!!!

But not for THOSE reasons (she added hastily) . . .


I've certainly heard the notion that BDSM is "hard wired" a great deal. I confess I am inclined to think that it is a sexuality, but not an "identity" in the way that LGBT is (if that makes sense?), but I'm not a psychologist, and I wouldn't insist upon it. (I should note that I've heard the same "hard wired" argument from practitioners of things like Dolcet as well, for whatever that is worth.)

I DO think that you should feel comfortable with your own sexuality, and I agree that one of the very real positive functions of SL is to allow people to explore themselves in new ways in a safe and supportive environment. And for that reason, and for others, I think BDSM and even some of the more violent sexualities should be permitted here -- and, in the context of safe consensual role play, in RL too. God knows I am not out to "cure" anyone of those things that are integral to their self-identity.

It really does come down to a question, I guess, of weighing individual liberty (and social acceptance) against the possible social harm. You and I both know and agree that a D/s relationship is a complex one that IS about mutual trust and love, and that (done correctly) it is consensual. But the outward SIGNS of that relationship . . . the displays of subservience, the collar, etc. . . . overtly SAY something very different; in fact, they contradict it. And if there is one thing that the struggles against racism and sexism over the last century have proven, it is that attitudes are formed -- or changed -- by what is publicly "said": through public behaviours, media images and messages, and so forth.

And it is because BDSM may "mean" one thing, but "says" something quite different, something that reinforces the very stereotypes about gender relations that lie at the heart of misogyny, that I would say that public expressions of BDSM (at least in male/female partnership) are problematic, to say the least.

But Scylla, that's so sexist

When I was a kid, I thought it meant the couple had a small bedroom.

I'm not sure what spinster means by "vanilla sex," to be honest. My objections are ONLY to sex that includes an element of violence. Some forms of BDSM sex play probably wouldn't bother me at all for that reason. Certainly, I have no problems with depictions of homosexuality or for that matter with nonviolent kinks and fetishes. I don't tend to get too tied in knots by spanking, for instance. (/me hears Smif exhale a sigh of relief. )

Again, however, wanting to engage in these kinds of sexual activity shouldn't necessitate being exposed to others that ARE violent.


No, of course not. And I have for that reason no problem at all with those areas in Zindra that ARE, as you say, "behind closed doors or limited to the regions their owners have set aside for them."

Don't forget the Gay Hussar, Smith. Henry Kissinger went there and so did tons of other politicians.

Okay, now speaking as real me, how does that stuff turn on a person? I mean, its still cartoony right? It's not real pain they feel is it? Or do they jab themselves with pins when they are wanking? Do you know, Scylla?

I thought getting tied in knots was a prerequisite.

Judges? Ruling please?