does anyone know the LL position on depictions of sexual violence?
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MortVent Charron
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05-18-2009 11:44
From: Kira Welty To the OP,
Getting a straight answer out of LL about rules.....
Maybe you should spend your time, when you are at these RP sims, talking to the "victims", ask the same question you've asked here. I think you will be very surprised at the responses you will get.
It's pretty much impossible not to have SSC in SL. did you hear about the lady that tried to save the tigers at the zoo? they eated her! edit: I think she should go to CARP... I'm sure they would be very enlightening to her world view... if the large number of furrys don't eat her first.
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Brenda Connolly
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05-18-2009 13:15
Perhaps we can get the OP and Cato together.
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Ephraim Kappler
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05-18-2009 14:29
From: Love Hastings From: Ledoof Constantineau Sexuality doesn't magically appear, it's a product of our socialisation and experiences. No one pops out of the womb with a foot fetish so what leads us there? Wow. I wouldn't disagree with the OP's assertion at all but I would insist that it is a good thing folks have a medium to work this stuff through whether they see it as mere fun or something deeper and more disturbing within themselves that they actively seek to confront, which dialectic is very much at the heart of why I would personally like to see minors well and truly off the grid. The OP's argument about representations of rape in imagery as opposed to RP is less to do with SL than a feature of how the internet works. I frequently find images cached on my hard drive that I would not have downloaded by choice but that's my problem for engaging in uncensored Googling. I see no real problem with this because, unless someone can prove my intent to download such images, they can otherwise go to hell in a handcart along with all the other moralisers. The same principle stands even if I were disposed to get a kick out of those images. I would also insist that looking at an image of rape is no more deplorable than looking at the remains of a bomb victim or a bloody assassination. Unfortunately, I have far more personal experience of the latter examples than rape. Having said that, I don't see the volume of complaint against images of death and destruction that should, in theory, match the furore over pornography of *any* description in contemporary media. Since nothing other than sex is missing from the equation, I have to conclude that extremely negative views of pornography tend to represent little more than the same prurience that the objectors themselves seek to villify. Furthermore, the extraordinarily sharp focus on rape as being somehow an exclusive objectification of women is not only indicative of the sorry state of contemporary advocacy for women's rights but it is a profoundly unethical misappropriation of the concept.
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Love Hastings
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05-18-2009 14:52
From: Ephraim Kappler I wouldn't disagree with the OP's assertion... Um, could you fix your quotation so it doesn't appear as though I said what I quoted another as saying? Thanks.
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Love Hastings
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05-18-2009 14:55
From: Ephraim Kappler I wouldn't disagree with the OP's assertion at all ... I would. It's the same argument as made by those who believe that homosexuality is a choice.
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Love Hastings
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05-18-2009 14:58
From: MortVent Charron edit: I think she should go to CARP... I'm sure they would be very enlightening to her world view... if the large number of furrys don't eat her first.
Hmmm. It might be time for another cartel CARP hunt.
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Brenda Connolly
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05-18-2009 15:00
From: Love Hastings Hmmm. It might be time for another cartel CARP hunt. One user agreed.
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Ephraim Kappler
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05-18-2009 15:02
From: Love Hastings Um, could you fix your quotation so it doesn't appear as though I said what I quoted another as saying? Thanks. Profound apologies. That ought to teach me for messing with nested quotes. From: Love Hastings I would. It's the same argument as made by those who believe that homosexuality is a choice. Matter of fact, I believe that myself: in my case it certainly is a matter of choice and I wouldn't have it any other way. It's a point of personal pride that I don't see myself as some sorry-assed victim of a genetic lottery. I don't speak for other guys and gals, of course.
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Love Hastings
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05-18-2009 15:03
From: Ephraim Kappler It's a point of personal pride that I don't see myself as some sorry-assed victim of a genetic lottery.
You must hate mirrors then.
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Ephraim Kappler
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05-18-2009 15:05
From: Love Hastings You must hate mirrors then. Thing is there is a good deal of very real nacissism tied up in homosexuality so I couldn't say that I do. I don't much care for slack bitching though.
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Imnotgoing Sideways
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05-18-2009 16:33
From: Ephraim Kappler ...It's a point of personal pride that I don't see myself as some sorry-assed victim of a genetic lottery... I've said it a number of times. I was not given the option to choose the appearance of my RL avatar. The way I look in RL doesn't reflect who I am at all. As a result, I've had to constrain myself in horrible ways in order to fit society's views of how I "should" be. (=_=) The Genetic Lottery dealt me losing numbers. Apparently, you've won the jackpot. Enjoy your winnings and please reconsider thumbing your nose at us losers. If we could have had it another way, we would have. (>_< 
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Tod69 Talamasca
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05-18-2009 16:52
From: Chris Norse They very well might. Violence, lust, envy are all natural parts of the human animal. Its the "keeping it under control" part that makes for a "normal" person.
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Dana Hickman
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05-18-2009 17:29
From: Ledoof Constantineau My agenda is to stop violence against women and to challenge the attitudes that promote and legitimise it.
Sexuality doesn't magically appear, it's a product of our socialisation and experiences. No one pops out of the womb with a foot fetish so what leads us there?
As far as the dark ages.. you're right. This place is awash with neanderthals. You can't stop any kind of violence against women by trying to prescreen or filter some kind of "media influence". Those who would STILL would reguardless of what they've seen in the media. Same weak arguement as violent video games causing violence.. just another excuse to try to moderate things for people. Socialization and experiences? No... Sexuality is a product of PUBERTY, plain and simple. It exists whether one acts on it or not, and is NOT affected by outside infuences. One's willingness to ACT on that sexuality may be influenced by experiences and socialization, but the personal limits of how far one will go remains that, reguardless of whether lesser things are spurring into action by the world. Again, those who would STILL would reguardless of what they've seen in the media. The only thing primitive is the attitude that people think they can temper something as primal as sexuality by closing the individual off from outside influences. Dead, flat, and embarrassingly wrong. I'm going inworld to find such a neanderthal to "manhandle me in the worst one-sided way possible" so I can forget about all this feminazi stupidness 
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spinster Voom
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05-18-2009 17:30
From: Tod69 Talamasca Its the "keeping it under control" part that makes for a "normal" person. I'm not sure what "normal" is, or whether it's a desirable thing to want to be, but "keeping it under control" is a good idea. I'd have thought that finding a safe outlet was part of that. Actually, I think there can be some dangers in exploring extreme fantasies in SL, especially for the inexperienced. Not in terms of consent, obviously - I am thinking more in terms of aftercare, or lack of it. Men have a tendency to get very sleepy when they have ... ahem ... "finished". In RL that's not quite such a problem - he's there and you can cuddle and chat, even if he's half asleep, but in SL he's likely to log off and just leave you in what could be a highly emotional state. This is not a reason to not explore stuff, just something to be aware of. I'm glad this discussion has taken a more sensible turn. I don't agree with the OP but I felt bad for having said anything when people were just calling her nasty names. ETA: oh hell, I spoke too soon  ETA2: I think the message that needs to be put out STRONGLY is that BDSM is not abuse and that there is no place for abuse in BDSM. That can be quite a difficult thing to understand for those not involved. I am constantly impressed (barring the very occasional bad apple) by the moral thoughtfulness of those I meet in the BDSM community, both RL and SL.
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Ephraim Kappler
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05-18-2009 18:16
From: Imnotgoing Sideways The Genetic Lottery dealt me losing numbers. Apparently, you've won the jackpot. Enjoy your winnings and please reconsider thumbing your nose at us losers. With all due respect that works both ways: perhaps it's churlish of me to "thumb my nose at others" but I am not a martyr to some deeply misunderstood glitch in my makeup and I did make it clear that I was speaking for myself. From: Imnotgoing Sideways If we could have had it another way, we would have. (>_<  Wouldn't it be so much better to have it as it is and be content with that? No one else can do it for you.
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3Ring Binder
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05-18-2009 18:22
From: Ledoof Constantineau My agenda is to stop violence against women and to challenge the attitudes that promote and legitimise it. There have been no responses to the points i've raised so far, only personal (and misinformed and epic fail scale wrong assumptions) attacks and a few libertarian wishy washy cliches. Sexuality doesn't magically appear, it's a product of our socialisation and experiences. No one pops out of the womb with a foot fetish so what leads us there? It's also a compex area for lots of women and I'm afraid - again - you've got me wrong in terms of trying to shame anyone. Are you saying that stating an opinion automatically equals shaming? Women are not immune to the cultural bombardment of messages about our bodies and our desires and I'm not going to apologise for challenging that and the oozing misogyny of the places in SL that I mentioned in my previous post. As far as the dark ages.. you're right. This place is awash with neanderthals. rape has nothing to do with sex. it has everything to do with power. that's why your question cannot be answered.
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Melita Magic
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05-18-2009 18:40
So the OP is claiming rape didn't exist before electronic media? I'd argue it existed a lot more often. From: Ledoof Constantineau My agenda is to stop violence against women and to challenge the attitudes that promote and legitimise it. Gee, messiah complex much? Stop insulting our collective intelligence. Who are you preaching to and why do you think we're all members of your church? Are you under the illusion we haven't heard the sermon before from various and sundry in our travels throughout life? The difference in opinion is whether and to what extent it applies here. What part of 'consensual fantasy' did you not understand? to spinster Voom - I agree with you but that's because there are a lot of people running around as "Masters" (or "Mistresses"  who have no freaking idea what they are doing. They probably think aftercare is something you get for a gall bladder operation.
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Darkness Anubis
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05-18-2009 18:52
One thing I have always found interesting is that when people start arguing for censorship it almost always is to prevent violence towards WOMEN.
Fact is MEN are raped or abused in RL too But oh no the loudest ones could care less. Its all about women.
Same thing happens in breast cancer awareness too. Yes men can get it. Yes mens odds of getting are only slightly lower than womens. Ever try to attend a march for breast cancer in support of a man? I have, it wasnt pretty. Most of hte women told me to go home.
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spinster Voom
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05-18-2009 18:56
From: Melita Magic They probably think aftercare is something you get for a gall bladder operation. LOL!
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Melita Magic
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05-18-2009 18:59
From: spinster Voom OP is involved in a campaign to get LL to ban sexually violent RP (at least against women) altogether. I know this because of a notecard I received thru the feminists group advertising said campaign.
I have identified myself as a feminist since my early teens and when I first came out as a Very Kinky Person I tied my brain in knots trying to reconcile my sexuality with my political views. What I think now is (and this is an ongoing process) that everybody has a right to their sexuality no matter how strange or un-PC, as long as what they _actually do_ only involves consenting adults. I will continue to identify as feminist as long as there are women in the world who lack control over their lives or who are oppressed or abused because they are women (and there are plenty of those), but I reject any philosophy that says that I, or anybody else, has to suppress such an important part of themselves in order to be acceptable. That's not freedom, that's just oppression from a different source.
(sorry for the speech, I think that notecard set me off) QFT. And Immy I'm sorry but sex with children isn't a 'kink'.
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Victoria Todd
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05-18-2009 23:40
From: Darkness Anubis Same thing happens in breast cancer awareness too. Yes men can get it. Yes mens odds of getting are only slightly lower than womens.
From: American Cancer Society Breast cancer is about 100 times less common among men than among women.
Only slightly.
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Ledoof Constantineau
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05-18-2009 23:53
Sigh.
A few points: Nowhere did I say that media is the only influence on values & attitudes. Media is reflective of social and cultural norms, values and attitudes. It also plays a part in shaping them.
Sexuality is different from sex drives and urges.
I opened a sentence with "My agenda is.." because there were a range of conspiracy theories about why I posed the original question and because of false statements about my perspective.
I'm not preaching to anyone or imposing an agenda. It's called having an opinion and expressing it.
Go out into the real world and do something? Aren't people who use SL part of the real world? I've also done lots of 'real world' work on these issues anyway. For years. But thanks for your helpful suggestion.
Nowhere have I mentioned morality. I've spoken about culture playing a part in shaping attitudes. Around a hundred years ago it was legal for a man in the UK to beat his wife as long as the stick was no wider than his thumb. Rape in marriage was criminalised in scotland in 1982 and in england in 1991. The changes happened because of changes in how women were viewed; the notion of woman as property of the husband was challenged.
Rape happens because rapists make a choice to do it. Rapists are not immune, however, to notions of 'she was asking for it', 'she wanted it', 'but look at how she was dressed', 'i paid for her dinner, what did she expect', 'she loved it' and neither are the jurors who don't convict them.
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Ian Nider
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05-19-2009 00:22
From: Ledoof Constantineau Sigh. A few points: Nowhere did I say that media is the only influence on values & attitudes. Media is reflective of social and cultural norms, values and attitudes. It also plays a part in shaping them. Sexuality is different from sex drives and urges. I opened a sentence with "My agenda is.." because there were a range of conspiracy theories about why I posed the original question and because of false statements about my perspective. I'm not preaching to anyone or imposing an agenda. It's called having an opinion and expressing it. Go out into the real world and do something? Aren't people who use SL part of the real world? I've also done lots of 'real world' work on these issues anyway. For years. But thanks for your helpful suggestion. Nowhere have I mentioned morality. I've spoken about culture playing a part in shaping attitudes. Around a hundred years ago it was legal for a man in the UK to beat his wife as long as the stick was no wider than his thumb. Rape in marriage was criminalised in scotland in 1982 and in england in 1991. The changes happened because of changes in how women were viewed; the notion of woman as property of the husband was challenged. Rape happens because rapists make a choice to do it. Rapists are not immune, however, to notions of 'she was asking for it', 'she wanted it', 'but look at how she was dressed', 'i paid for her dinner, what did she expect', 'she loved it' and neither are the jurors who don't convict them. *sigh* Maybe starting a string on rape might have served you better, rather than basically asking people what their sexual fantasies are and inferring they are somehow wrong. No wonder you're getting the reception you are. Your also very one sided. Helps no one not even the victims you care for.
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Ceka Cianci
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05-19-2009 01:01
From: Ledoof Constantineau
Sexuality is different from sex drives and urges.
What?? sexuality definition sexu·al·ity (sek′s̸ho̵̅o̅ al′ə tē ) noun 1. the state or quality of being sexual 2. a. interest in or concern with sex b. sexual drive or activity
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Darkness Anubis
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05-19-2009 01:37
From: Victoria Todd Only slightly. At the time I was dealing with it in my father the numbers the hospital gave me were 1/7 for women 1/10 for men. So those were the number I was thinking of when I wrote. The fact that you couldn't simply correct my numbers and had to come back with a rather snarky "only slightly" illustrates my point. Because I am talking about the mens side of the issue and because its less common in men. Then to many people its ok to dismiss the men as unimportant.
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