An interesting bit of hypocrisy
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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09-01-2005 13:46
From: Cocoanut Koala Is there something wrong with me being an officer?
coco No, apparently there's nothing wrong with that at all. I will leave you in hope that you will actually read the words of Anshe and Prokofy. And that you will try to see them from the point of view of someone not in the group. They are acting as the leaders, and all you blindered (intentionally or not) responses aren't going to change the way 90% of people who have read what they said are going to view it. Your group has a PR problem. Heck, more like a crisis. The creator and the founder of your group have been running off at the mouth with exclusionary rhetoric. You can recite all day that they don't really run it, but that is the message being broadcast by them, and being that one of them conceived the group, and the other founded it (probably at the first's behest), people ARE going to perceive it that way, and therein lies your PR problem. You wanna pretend it doesn't exist? Be my guest. The other 95+% of SL isn't going to, and I for one am gonna make damned sure everyone I know hears about this issue. In turn, the folks I tell about it will tell others, and so on and so forth...
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-01-2005 13:46
From: Cristiano Midnight The irony of all of this is unbelievably rich. Prokofy screamed for months about Neualtenberg, and how dangerous they were, that Ulrika's little socialist experiment was a threat to freedom in SL. Never mind that they were just governing each other, in their own project, in their own group. Here, you have a group of people, several with very clear, self protecting agendas, trying to influence Linden policy. Which is more dangerous? A group of people living out mock government in a private sim, or a group trying to lobby tthe Lindens to change SL based upon their views, never mind they are not representative of even close to a majority.
The group's bias is its undoing - the needs of the wealthy player far outstrip the common person, as stated by both Prokofy and Anshe - two principal officers in your group. Whatever your goals are for the group, they are being undermined by having such obvious agendas being promoted by other officers. I'm not a wealther player or a wealthy landowner. The agenda of the group still reflects what I would like to see. The points being promoted by the group are hardly radical, if you read those points. My goals will not be undermined. My goals aren't inconsistent with theirs. coco |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-01-2005 13:47
From: Aleksie Solvang You claim that it in no way threatens anyone's individual rights, when how can it not? these "stakeholders" are claiming they're more important than us "casual players" and should have more of a say.. claiming to represent us "casual players" when they only represent themselves.... how does that not threaten my individual rights? Because they are not saying that. They are saying basically that when people put a lot of their real life and income into SL, they shouldn't have the rug summarily pulled out from under them. That, I can get behind. coco |
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Beau Perkins
Second Life Resident.
Join date: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,061
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09-01-2005 13:47
From: Caroline Apollo Who decided this group would be the spokesgroup for SL residents?
I sure as hell didn't see any vote or discussion about it.
There is a thing called a Town Hall Meeting where we can ALL discuss such issues that affect SL.
Not in private meetings among a few residents.
Screw joining a group, this involves all of SL which we are already members of.
I should hope the Lindens will make sure future meetings will be widely publicized inside SL. And that we (stakeholders, merely tourists, users, consumers, players etc) are able to participate verbally. Caroline, in LL defense. They gave all the right answers. I think they had very little knowledge as to what the meeting was about before hand. It is the motive of the officers involved in the meeting that is bothering most of us. |
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Aleksie Solvang
nani?
Join date: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 113
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09-01-2005 13:50
From: someone Because they are not saying that. They are saying basically that when people put a lot of their real life and income into SL, they shouldn't have the rug summarily pulled out from under them.
That, I can get behind.
coco Right, they're grappling for power, for support.. why shouldnt we all have access to that? I put my real life time into the game and my real life money.. so I dont put in as much money as some land barons.. why should they get a louder voice than me? |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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09-01-2005 13:50
From: Nolan Nash No, apparently there's nothing wrong with that at all.
I will leave you in hope that you will actually read the words of Anshe and Prokofy. And that you will try to see them from the point of view of someone not in the group. They are acting as the leaders, and all you blindered (intentionally or not) responses aren't going to change the way 90% of people who have read what they said are going to view it.
Your group has a PR problem. Heck, more like a crisis. The creator and the founder of your group have been running off at the mouth with exclusionary rhetoric. You can recite all day that they don't really run it, but that is the message being broadcast by them, and being that one of them conceived the group, and the other founded it (probably at the first's behest), people ARE going to perceive it that way, and therein lies your PR problem.
You wanna pretend it doesn't exist? Be my guest. The other 95+% of SL isn't going to, and I for one am gonna make damned sure everyone I know hears about this issue. In turn, the folks I tell about it will tell others, and so on and so forth... Very well said. Unlike the FIC bullshit, this is a tangible group that is going to be dogged every step of the way in their attempts to mold SL in their likeness in order to protect the poor unwashed tourist masses. Talk about your debacles. Is it wrong to enjoy this so much?
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Caroline Apollo
Lo Lo
Join date: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 288
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09-01-2005 13:50
From: Beau Perkins Caroline, in LL defense. They gave all the right answers. I think they had very little knowledge as to what the meeting was about before hand.
It is the motive of the officers involved in the meeting that is bothering most of us. Beau, exactly. |
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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09-01-2005 13:50
I for one would like to thank the folks I see posting here who generally don't post in these matters.
Let your voices be heard, and let them know that it's not just some "Forums FIC" bogeyman that thinks the agenda of the most prominent officers of this group is a crock, and does not at all, in any shape or form, respect or represent the wishes of the general populace!
Let them hear it!
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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09-01-2005 13:51
From: Beau Perkins Caroline, in LL defense. They gave all the right answers. I think they had very little knowledge as to what the meeting was about before hand.
It is the motive of the officers involved in the meeting that is bothering most of us. Yes, Linden Lab came out of it completely unscathed. My faith in the system remains in tact.
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Dori Spice
Registered User
Join date: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 8
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09-01-2005 13:52
From: Beau Perkins Cocoanuts,
Your and Prok preached so strongly against Lindens meeting and talking with people in IRC, which conversation is so often just boring technical talk about running Second Life on Linux and other topics along those lines.
How can you be so against that, and not against a meeting where the largest land holder is head spokeswoman for a small group of people who claim to be for what the majority of SL is concerned about? Can you not see how this could be a huge conflict of interest? How can you not see how this is hypocritical? She was even voted out in a recall and went right back in the group as an officer? If the majority of this very group voted her out, how can she now claim to be what is good for the majority of the population?
And please dont feed me a line about being free to join. #sl has always been a public arena as well.
I am very curious in your answers to all these questions. Beau stated what worries me also. I may be new around these parts but I would like to see these questions responded to also. |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-01-2005 13:53
From: Beau Perkins Cocoanuts,
Your and Prok preached so strongly against Lindens meeting and talking with people in IRC, which conversation is so often just boring technical talk about running Second Life on Linux and other topics along those lines.
How can you be so against that, and not against a meeting where the largest land holder is head spokeswoman for a small group of people who claim to be for what the majority of SL is concerned about? Can you not see how this could be a huge conflict of interest? How can you not see how this is hypocritical? She was even voted out in a recall and went right back in the group as an officer? If the majority of this very group voted her out, how can she now claim to be what is good for the majority of the population?
And please dont feed me a line about being free to join. #sl has always been a public arena as well.
I am very curious in your answers to all these questions. I think the criticisms of how the group was announced are reasonable criticisms to make. As I noted, I'm not on the game full-time either, and I've missed these meetings myself. I would definitely be opposed to a group which wasn't open to all who agree with the premise. All those who agree with the agenda, as stated to date, can and should join. Moreover, I can agree that waking up to find out all this has been going on and maybe you didn't know a thing about it is disconcerting. But you know now. And the goal was never for you NOT to know. However, I do feel that any group has a right to present its position to the Lindens. I was against people meeting with a Linden in IRC to discuss how best to get rid of another player. I don't claim to be for what the large majority of SL is concerned about. I claim to be for what this group is concerned about. That recall vote - for crying out loud - we all know how borked all THAT is. I don't see any conflict of interest between the fact that Anshe is a huge landowner and the fact that the items on the agenda will benefit me, and, imo, benefit everyone. coco |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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09-01-2005 13:54
From: Cocoanut Koala Because they are not saying that. They are saying basically that when people put a lot of their real life and income into SL, they shouldn't have the rug summarily pulled out from under them.
That, I can get behind.
coco Cocoanut, THat translates directly into "don't make changes that affect my bottom line, whether they are for the good of SL or not. Protecting my money is more important than the needs of the whole". Glad you can get behind that sentiment.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-01-2005 13:55
From: Nolan Nash No, apparently there's nothing wrong with that at all.
I will leave you in hope that you will actually read the words of Anshe and Prokofy. And that you will try to see them from the point of view of someone not in the group. They are acting as the leaders, and all you blindered (intentionally or not) responses aren't going to change the way 90% of people who have read what they said are going to view it.
Your group has a PR problem. Heck, more like a crisis. The creator and the founder of your group have been running off at the mouth with exclusionary rhetoric. You can recite all day that they don't really run it, but that is the message being broadcast by them, and being that one of them conceived the group, and the other founded it (probably at the first's behest), people ARE going to perceive it that way, and therein lies your PR problem.
You wanna pretend it doesn't exist? Be my guest. The other 95+% of SL isn't going to, and I for one am gonna make damned sure everyone I know hears about this issue. In turn, the folks I tell about it will tell others, and so on and so forth... Notice, Nolan, that I am acting as a leader also. I believe these ideals are worth lobbying for, regardless of who is doing the lobbying. Politics does make for strange bedfellows, you know. coco |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-01-2005 13:57
From: Cristiano Midnight Cocoanut,
THat translates directly into "don't make changes that affect my bottom line, whether they are for the good of SL or not. Protecting my money is more important than the needs of the whole". Glad you can get behind that sentiment. The idea, I believe, is to give those people a voice in the system. To have their concerns heard prior to the implementation of such changes. Not to give them carte blanche. Sort of like taxation WITH at least some representation. coco |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-01-2005 13:58
From: Aleksie Solvang Right, they're grappling for power, for support.. why shouldnt we all have access to that? I put my real life time into the game and my real life money.. so I dont put in as much money as some land barons.. why should they get a louder voice than me? That we all SHOULD, is the point. coco |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-01-2005 13:59
From: Cristiano Midnight Very well said. Unlike the FIC bullshit, this is a tangible group that is going to be dogged every step of the way in their attempts to mold SL in their likeness in order to protect the poor unwashed tourist masses. Talk about your debacles. Is it wrong to enjoy this so much? I am attempting to "mold" SL into some semblance of fairness and equal opportunity for all. coco |
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Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
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09-01-2005 14:00
From: Nolan Nash Well, he is taking the group by the reigns over on his blog. Have you read it? I think you should if you haven't. Then you might understand where people are getting the notion that Prokofy is running the group. He sure is making it sound like that over there... oh, NOW you take what Prok says seriously. I took my pot shots at him, he took his potshots at me. For the record, I spent a ridiculous amount of time debating his "litmis test" for content creators with him. My idea of a solution was 3 subgroups for a check and balance, kinda like a union for the 3 main groups 1) Consumer 2) Content 3) Land (i actually alphabatized because word counters would find fault if i listed in any other order) All open enrollment Prok has stated his version of being against content it is not my opinion, nor the opinion af all it is Proks opinion I don't think that is in line with what Philip requests or expects I am interested in government, the others are mostly interested in lobbying, hence this will NOT be and HAS NO INTENTION of being a governing group or a representative group. It is a "special interest" you saw the notecard of the defined objectives I agree with the basic objectives I joined for and am not going to press the matter on government. agree? join. don't? do nothing or join another group.
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Aleksie Solvang
nani?
Join date: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 113
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09-01-2005 14:00
From: Cocoanut Koala That we all SHOULD, is the point.
coco yes, we all SHOULD... so why are you in a group that says they want equality but then alienates the vast majority who they say they represent? and claims they're more important than who they supposedly represent? hypocrisy anyone? |
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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09-01-2005 14:01
From: Cocoanut Koala That's not what the group is about, Siggy.
coco Go read the comments on this very thread - you'll find that several of your officers disagree with you on that.
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Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
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09-01-2005 14:01
From: Cocoanut Koala Because they are not saying that. They are saying basically that when people put a lot of their real life and income into SL, they shouldn't have the rug summarily pulled out from under them.
That, I can get behind.
coco So said the horse-buggy maker when automobiles were invented.
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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09-01-2005 14:01
:d :d :d :d :d
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Cid Jacobs
Theoretical Meteorologist
Join date: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 4,304
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09-01-2005 14:03
From: Mulch Ennui
My idea of a solution was 3 subgroups for a check and balance, kinda like a union for the 3 main groups
1) Consumer
2) Content
3) Land
Ah good idea, if you pit them all against each other maybe they wont have time to realise whats happening in front of their faces? |
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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09-01-2005 14:03
From: Mulch Ennui oh, NOW you take what Prok says seriously.
I took my pot shots at him, he took his potshots at me.
For the record, I spent a ridiculous amount of time debating his "litmis test" for content creators with him.
My idea of a solution was 3 subgroups for a check and balance, kinda like a union for the 3 main groups
1) Consumer
2) Content
3) Land
(i actually alphabatized because word counters would find fault if i listed in any other order)
All open enrollment
Prok has stated his version of being against content
it is not my opinion, nor the opinion af all
it is Proks opinion
I don't think that is in line with what Philip requests or expects
I am interested in government, the others are mostly interested in lobbying, hence this will NOT be and HAS NO INTENTION of being a governing group or a representative group.
It is a "special interest"
you saw the notecard of the defined objectives
I agree with the basic objectives I joined for and am not going to press the matter on government.
agree?
join.
don't?
do nothing or join another group. When did I say I wasn't taking him seriously? Of course I am, and that is why I am so pissed off.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-01-2005 14:03
OK, I think I am about caught up now.
For now, let me just say again, this group is not All About Anshe nor is it All About Prok.
The points on the agenda are what the group is about.
If you agree with those points, then join. That's what I did.
coco
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Aleksie Solvang
nani?
Join date: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 113
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09-01-2005 14:03
heh, nice Talen!
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