An interesting bit of hypocrisy

*As she rides away on a high horse along the low road*.

Oddly enough though, you had a choice BEFORE Editorial put the group's existence in the forums. I didn't have that choice.

I don't think this group is all about Anshe or all about Prok. I think it's people trying to say they're acting in the best interests for all of SL but have no compulsions about insulting them or calling them names. I think that it's a group where the hypocrisy is thick. And I'm _not_ a member of any sort of FIC thing.

That's what I've been trying to say. TY for helping me by restating it differently. I'm hoping that the message and intent get across, but I'm assuming probably not.

The horse is dead.

Stop kicking it and throwing rocks at it while screaming, "Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun!"

Side A has thier opinion, Side B has their opinion, and Side C has another entirely different opinion.

There is absolutely nothing that can be said that will change anyone's opinion, and the constant back and forth over who is right and who is wrong is just pointless.

Could there be a more productive avenue?

I think you will find that in the long run, not only the explicit agenda, but every other action, word and inaction will also contribute to "what speaks for the group".

Bottom line is that it is always important to examine all the evidence ... not just what we are told.

OK, is it possible that this is the longest thread ever in the forums?

Let me give a little Linden perspective on this that is hopefully helpful:

People IM me pretty frequently and ask if they can meet in world and talk to me. Ditto for Robin, etc. I always say yes, time allowing - seems like the right policy to always accept meetings. I've found that when people take the time to specifically ask me for a meeting, I usually learn something when I go. In this case I think I got an email from one of the people who was at this meeting asking if a bunch of folks could get together with Robin and I. I said yes like always. When I meet people in-world, I don't put it in the event calendar.

I didn't know that the people at the meeting had formed an in-world group with any sort of membership rules. Anyway I don't think that all the folks there were in the same group - at least from the titles on their AV names.

The big topic that these folks asked about (read the transcript) was to review the internal policies that Linden has it's employees abide by regarding currency, alts, and other stuff related to in-world behavior. I thought that it seemed like a really good idea that Linden make that stuff available to everyone to review. We've discussed various points of those policies in forums or in-world, but it does seem like a really important thing to be transparent about - everyone in SL should be able to read and comment on the policies that Linden Lab has employees abide by in this regard. So Robin is going to get this stuff together and send it around. We always abide by the idea that any data we give out is given out to the entire community - so we will be sure and post that stuff in the forums in it's entirety.

Beyond that, I suggested that if this group wanted to publically bring us a specific recommendation regarding policy or features or whatever, we would be happy to come to an in-world meeting and listen. As it said in the transcript, I conditioned this on a couple things:

* That any such meetings (and their transcripts, docs, etc) be public.

* That if a 'group' was asking for the meeting, that group should not create some form of exclusivity in it's membership that wasn't broadly inclusive of the SL community. (In thinking further about this, I'm not really sure I should have even applied this constraint, given the idea that I'm just there to listen and the meeting is public - I don't see why all the 'car builders' or whatever in SL can't come and talk to me a a group)

I'm happy to extend this opportunity to meet in a resident-driven way (as opposed to the Linden town halls) with any other group of people who ask. I guess if lots of people take us up on that offer, we might at some point run out of time to attend, but again history has generally tought me that people who take the time to organize thoughts and ask for a meeting are usually worth taking the time to meet with. Hopefully that won't change!

Finally, let me offer some thoughts on this general ideas of meetings and petitions and representation:

It seems to me that one very important thing SL offers is a degree of openness, transparency, and an ease of collective dialog that makes conventional real-world ideas of representative democracy unnecessary. Inotherwards, it really isn't any harder in SL to find out how EVERYONE feels about something, rather than trusting than some sort of representative is presenting a position which is consistent with the feelings of a larger group. So I think that to the extent that LL policy is driven by opinions of many people in SL, representation is not necessary in the conventional sense.

A central and powerful appeal of SL is freedom, and as many people have asserted, SL is really a lot like the internet (at least we want it to become that way) in the sense that it will ultimately be a huge set of different places that are locally 'governed'. The internet is like that today - there really isn't any sort of central authority or set of rules beyond IP protocols and large diffuse groups like service providers. There isn't any internet 'police' or even an internet 'government'. We think SL should work the same way - with as little central control as possible. So regardless of what suggestions are made, we aren't contemplating increasing the number of policies or the amount of control.

I think a good way to work on new ideas for SL is the sort of 'working group' that is so common with the internet - a group of people who get together and try to craft a standard for something. For example I remember there were some people in SL working together on a 'seal program' for sellers of content, that would offer some promise that the seller was trustworthy, etc. If a group like that comes and says "hey if you guys add the following scripting call (or whatever), we could create this sort of program.

Given the above-mentioned restriction on moving toward less government rather than more, what I think LL could really use help from the community on is thinking through new ideas and presenting them to us in the form of features or actions we could take that would broadly enable stuff in a good way. So when I get a group of people (like this one) that comes to me, I tell them "go and try and think something through that LL hasn't had the time and energy to think about, and come back with a good design." There are only about 50 of us, and there are 40,000 of you. So this seems like a good idea.

As far as "discussions about SL", it just passed this thread.

But, not as long as this thread. Or this one. And what about this? Wow!


Thanks for the extensive feedback... what an ideapool.

Experiments... onwards ho!

I hope there are many more groups that are inspired to get together and take ideas and blast them off from the launching pad, and this will represent a greater diverse variety from the SL community and show more about what Residents of Second Life are passionate and enthused about! ^_^

pfft! In terms of controversy.. I think the old forum arugments about Federal were worse Philip... Not to mention those that Torley pointed out. hehe

And yes, your ideas are great. They are not the sole ideas this group has, but it is wonderful to hear a response from you.

I think what you state very much represents the majority Philip, and I thank you for that. The group we are debating stands for so very few of those ideals (when you actually learn their motives).

Wooohoo!! See you in NY!!! I can't wait to talk and play in RL with you all

Thank you. This is what I was hoping to hear.

Hey Penpen, I only HEARD about those. Some very colorful stories with language like a rainbow! Speaking of the past... I really must bring up this thread, which is still longer than this one.

Hippos
/120/24/1727/1.html

It may seem kinda irrelevant but bear with me. In it are many postings from over a year ago, a time when Second Life was changing. Like it's still changing today. In it are many of my "old skool" (I mean this totally reverently) heroes, people I really look up to for their creative energy and their crazy ideas, as well as what they've contributed. Some are no longer here and I've never met others inworld, but I have a great deal of respect for the contributions of Residents past and present here—and future.

The "hippo" is the figurehead animal of SL. It brought a lot of mirth during turbulent times, which I wasn't there for but love to hear tales about. There's a page about it on the SecondServer history wiki (but I can't access the URL right now).

If you take a little time to read the thread, it's like a walk down virtual memory lane and about a lot of the beauty that's bound this place together despite adversity. And that SL is developing its own culture with not only terminology, but context to go along with that, and so many stories of lives changed along the way—be it "frivolous" fun or good causes that help heal the ill. I mean this broadly, and positively.

There is also a children's story that appeals to my innocence I'd like to share with you. It involves several animals, including a hippo, and watermelons. And yes, it relates to the themes of today. It's all connected, one train station (like the new SLRR ones), to the next.

http://www.electricscotland.com/kids/stories/watermelon.htm

I'd like to conclude this post by saying how cool it is when Philip gets his hands dirty, and he's the type of person I can see being gleeful about it, not because he revels in muck, but because he knows he'll find treasure in the soil and want to share it with us. I said similar things when I was a total n00b Resident, and here I am, almost a year later. I wonder what the next year will bring!

That's what really makes LL and SL so special and different and [insert imaginary word here].

great story!

thank you Torley

thank you Philip

and I SINCERELY hope anyone who has a voice and an idea on how to make SL a better place find their own "Special Interest" now that Philip has let us all know how valued we are to SL, especially when working together (even with people we don't normally agree with)

PS I officially apologize to all the people I said were lazy and might be pricks

Was a long night (few days actually, not much sleep), was cranky, drinking, and Italian. That can produce explosive destructive results and I humbly apologize if I offended, singed, or otherwise provoked anyone

I need some sleep, night all.

I.. I just wanna teach and play tringo

Excellent statement

Philip, this was the best post ever! Please make it sticky! It addressed every worry I personally had and was a tremendous relief on how you guys really think about the openness of SL. I would even consider these words equivalent to the constitution of SL, if there were to be one.

a big THANK YOU!

War in Jessie! Is it upon us?!?!

Make your time! Take off every ziG!

All your base belong to us!

Wow, just wow. Philip, was that the longest post ever by the king in these humble forums? I'm sorry, I know you've had a really bad week but ... thank you for that post. From the bottom of my black heart (you can't see down there you know), I thank you. That post and no other in my 1 year and 2 months in this metaworld, have firmly entrenched me. *tips his hat*

Wow Federal was awful... I remember the validity of a post being measured by the size of the authors genitals! It was very bad and I sure am glad that is behind us.

Thank you, Philip, for your response. I think there is very little, if any, contradiction between what you have said and what the group wishes to see.

coco

You have large genitals behind you????

Wow, 40 pages of drama and I wasn't involved.

I supppose I better add something:

OMG FIC!!!!!!111111one

Okay, now I suppose I should add something serious:

Isn't this what the forums are supposed to be for?

Well, if you add all the child threads, it certainly is a pretty massive explosion in the forums community.

For once. Then you had to go and ruin it... or was that an attempt to make sure you could say you were involved? I can't tell. (wry grin)

And look, you brought the blaze out. It can't go anywhere but downhill now.

Damn you.

Well there is one big difference -- 'the group' has no power and wishes it did.

You are amazing. You have spent at least 20 hours on the forums posting the positives about this group; but have yet to attend a meeting and/or do officer functions. Please continue the good work, it's insightful for everyone to see just how an officer of a "users community group" is available in-world and is up-to-date on all issues presented from the meetings.

As I said twice in another thread, Lynn, this business about meetings without enough advance notice is over.

coco

P.S. Don't expect me ingame during the daytime. I rarely am.