More land extorsion: W-Hat group

You're right, Chromal. I'm being very antagonistic at the expense of my values and image. I apologize not just to Anshe but to you all.

~Ulrika~

Anshe did not dismantle Rose market I did. It was my market and it came to a point that I didn't have time to give to it anymore. I sold the land and told the Merchants what was happening.

Alrighty, so back to topic: What can we as community do about those land extorsion people? Or what should Linden Lab do? I don't think it is good for Second Life community if some mafia can just have their way.

It seem to me customer decide support don't act on land extorsion. I feel if this is case then it would be very wrong. I'd really like hear one of our favorite Lindens explain what actual policy is and what residents can do.

Ok. I shouldn't have even gotten into this thread this morning. Apologies to everyone involved, including Anshe. I'm just acting like a dork today. <sigh>

This kind of tactic Anshe, is why I choose not to support you. It was not "mostly" me... there were several people that were protesting. You had no fewer than THREE people offering to help you pull Rose market together, including Gardinya Flora. I counted several people, including current merchants at Rose, that were asking you to hold off for a bit so they could help you figure a way to preserve Rose and make it profitable. You ignored all of us and the next day, Rose was gone.

Frankly, I had no personal need to help you manage Rose. I run three SL groups, am a merchant myself with booths all over SL, and just entered a partnership that is proving to be very successful. My time is packed enough as it is. My sole concern in making any offer of assistance at all was trying to keep Rose Market intact.

If you demonstrated more concern for the feelings of others, I would fight for you till the sun turns blue. But as others have pointed out already, you make your business decisions based on personal gain. That's your decision and your right, but you can't make such decisions and at the same time have lots of friends ready to go to battle for you.

So yes, I am angry with your neighbors for their tactics. Yes, I think it is high time Lindens put a stop to such things (and there is lots of such nonsense that happens on SL and it is very unprofessional). I actually agree with you regarding such tactics and I sympathize. But I at the same time I ask you to inspect your own business practices and remember one of the basic 4 questions of the Rotary Group: Is what I am doing for the good of all concerned? And if you change your business practices to take into consideration the feelings and needs of others, then when something like this comes up, you may wind up with dozens of people who are ready to go to battle for you. As it is you have about 5 million supporters... but none of them very loyal.

And for the record, whether it was Talen who did the physical removal or not is immaterial. If Anshe had decided to retain Rose market, Talen would have left it intact-- as he had already offered to do.

Yes, this was a land deal. Yes, Anshe, you legally and ethically have the right to decide what to do with your land. Just as other people have the right to decide how they will play SL-- either in honor or dishonor. And just as I and others have a right to our opinions and responses to such. It is only when everyone considers the good of others in all their dealings that things turn out right. That of course, is an idealistic concept, but one to which a lot of people on SL adhere-- and to which more should.

Anshe, I'm sorry to hear this. I hope the Lindens resolve it quickly. I don't think it's right to rail on Anshe just because she's Anshe. This problem could've easily happened to anyone here. But since some never let go of "the rich are evil" mentality, expect the lack of empathy.

Now I'm even more dissapointed. Ulrika, you know you're not allowed to apologize or rethink any position in the forums. If people start doing that, we'd be progressive and thoughtful, and what the hell fun would tha be?

Ooooooo, Dhrama!!!! *gets out Orville's Everfull Bag O' Popcorn*

Much as I enjoy reading another episode of "Days of Our Second Lives", can we get back to the point here? Ugly build abuse is a deceitful tactic to get land...whatever your opinion of Anshe is. I think this illustrates that such annoyances happen to *everyone*, the 'rich' and the 'poor', whatever that actually means in a simulated game with simulated money which only has value to people who want to 'buy' what amounts to a set of 3-D pictures.

Methinks what we have here is a combination of sour grapes and bankroll envy. Anyone would be pissed if some jerk cluttered their nice virtual homestead with ugly junk. Anshe has a right to speak her piece about it. And while everyone has the right to reply "Shut up, you're a blankety-blank greedy land baron", it's not benefiting the discussion of the issue, and is simply nasty.

Now, to the point...Is there anything that can be *done* about people who try to drive people away with ugly builds? Ideas welcome!

Wow, guys! It's actually rare that the forums surprise me any more, but some of the opinions expressed here by some people I respect really have surprised me, even though its Anshe!

I have never hidden the fact that I have a lot of issues with what Anshe does and how she behaves, and that I think our game experience has been deteriorated by some of those things and their knock on effects and influences. I feel the same way as many of you about the way the game is going and who I feel has played and does play crucial roles in accelerating those changes. I've been very vocal about my perception of Linden favoritism and its effects, too.

But to tell her that she has no right to complain or ask for our help because she has money? To say that her past deeds negate her problems now?

To say that she can (and should) buy whatever she wants? To say she should blackmail them back? To say she should bribe them to leave or 'pay the ransom'? To say she can get you terminated?! Firstly, if she did any of those things in any quantity, all bloody hell would break loose on here! Secondly, the Lindens aren't going to risk losing a large proportion of their paying customer base by bending to Anshe's will to do whatever she wants on a whim, no matter how much money she has.

She has brought up an issue that all of us would ordinarily feel aggrieved about, I think, and I really can't help believing that if this thread had been started by just about anyone else in Second Life it would have been mostly positive calls for something to be done or clarification from the Lindens. As it is, this is not about the subject of the thread, its about the thread starter.

I must say, this is a sticky one. This is probably a situation that the community should deal with ...not LL.

Question is, aside from the litter and objects protruding onto Anshe's land, what can LL do?

We have long held the beleif that we are allowed to put what we want on our land. Obviously this is being done to spite Anshe and force a move, and is wrong, but my bigger concern is the precedent this may set if LL does take action.

I have no answer to this, and do not want to encourage this type extortionistic behavior. But have concerns as to what criteria will determine what builds get removed by LL.

Absolutely ...

Anshe, the solution is simple -- make the call and file an abuse report. There's not much the rest of us can do.

I mean ... what COULD we do? W-Hat already has a healthy number of detractors. We can tell 'em to stop and not do it again 'til we're blue in the face but I doubt the Lindens would ever go so far as to disband them.

So what? Don't buy land in Baku? That sucks. I don't have any answers. Baku is not a pretty sim anyway and it's even uglier now thanks to W-Hat.

Anshe,

You are reaping what you sowed.

Enjoy!

No she isn't - far from it - and being my wife, I can vouche for that as being fact... I think Jonquilles point is that if this happened to anyone else here (and it has) that folks would but up in arms (and they have been).

It's a matter of principle, not a matter of how much money someone has.

I find the practice dispicable - but that being said so long as their crapfactory doesn't spill over onto your land , there isn't that much that can be done about it

Try waiting them out.

Siggy.

Now that I've said what needed to be said about Rose market (and enough of that, I'll say no more)... regarding this extortion.

One of the basic Linden "Laws" is that no user shall make direct attacks that deter from the enjoyment of the game by other users. This is plain. So how is it that these users can continue to litter land that is not theirs, in an obviously intentional manner, and remain members of the SL community? They either are warned and heed those warnings, or they should be removed from the board. And the Linden policy of not telling victims what action has been taken in the case of an abuse is just a bad policy, hands down. It makes everyone think nothing is being done about anything... which I know is not the case. Lindens handle abuse problems every day.

Abuses go on constantly on SL. People steal L$ by false representation, they break contracts, they commit fraud and lie and cheat... with no consequenses because Lindens refuse 'to interfere with private agreements or business activities'. If this were RL, your neighbors could be sued or even arrested for such stunts. So why does such occur here on SL without victim recourse? High time for such things to stop.

Getting down to brass tacks... since they are using their computers to attack you in what is actually your business environment, this could be considered a RL act of Computer Terrorism or Harassment-- which can incurr both RL civil and legal recourse (brand new laws on that). Linden community policy takes second seat to a RL court order to reveal abusive computer user records. And they would have to pay attention to a RL court injunction for such activities to cease and desist.

Ulrika this response from you really surprised me. How does her financial status have anything to do with griefing, blackmail and extortion?

AND... I just got down to where you apologized. Kudos!

Ya know, the people that have posted constructive replies have been somewhat divided on whether its something LL should handle at all, and if so, what could they do?

Thats why it's an interesting topic that I think Anshe was more than justified to highlight here, and its very much worthy of discussion for all our sakes.

Anshe,

I definitely think standing up to them is the right thing - they probably figured you are an easy target that they could get money out of. Regardless of anyone's financial stature, they do not deserve to be griefed in this way. It is something that is so clearly wrong, and no amount of demonizing the victim is going to change that. Good job on not giving in, Anshe.

I'm really scared now. You and I have been agreeing an aweful lot lately.

It's alright, I'm scaring myself. Two posts without any sarcasm or just trolling with a stupid comment. Oh wait. There it is. Phew.

If this isn't against the TOS, I rather think I would go this route.

If what they're doing isn't against the TOS then this suggested action shouldn't be either.

Of course, file an abuse report and follow the appropriate channels first, document them out the wazoo. Only if LL takes a hands-off approach would I try Alexa's suggestion....but damn it would be funny. Wouldn't be hard to make your side of the build look really nice too - maybe a waterfall or something...

This plot of Land in question is Club Mo-ran, yes its for sale for 20k but the owner doesnt really want to sell it. Does that make it extortion? The junk that littered the rest of the for sale land, easy solution, turn on return objects and stop whining.

Everyone else come on over to Club Mo-ran and bring your own noise makers and albums cause its the visitors who play the music here.

I can't speak for the others, but when I see a terrain with object return disabled, I assume the owner tolerates object placement. That easy. That's why you have that option.

And oh, what you call nauseating crazyness, is what we call Club Mo-Ran. If you have different visual esthetics than I have, that's solely your problem. I like the rotating madness, and I'm giggling like a school girl when I see the newest creations each day.

--edit: And holy crap, 5 million Lindens? You really have a reason to complain. Not to mention that you're trying to sell a terrain, you paid 74k for, to people for a total worth of 110k.

I agree with Shadow, Anshe doesnt deserve to be targeted like this!



Totally agree.

I guess you've never had to collaborate on building anything? Please don't assume. I have object return disabled for a very, very good reason, and it's not so people can trash my place up. Those who do wont do it a second time.

Btw, I'm not actually sure I even get your reasoning.... if they DON'T have autoreturn they tolerate object placement? What, like, permanently? o.o

I would have thought it was the other way round.. if they DO have autoreturn on, then there is no particular consequence of your rezzing stuff.

And really, is it too much to ask to be courteous and clean up after yourself?

It would mean the Lindens would have to define what exactly qualifies as "griefer" content. Which, if at all possible, is a long and difficult task. Especially when in mature sims, "mature" is often interpreted to be as vulgar, lewd, tacky as one likes.

How can they define it without making it seem like they're stifling players? It's like any type of restriction they have or try to implement gets people all huffy. Everyone feels entitled to something because they're paying.

Obviously they're not residents like we are. We can give them specific instances like 100 physic-enabled beachballs, or rotating prims with 7 different particle emissions. If we all got together and made a list of what exactly counts as griefing then handed it to them, maybe they'd have a better clue.