A few words about the Metaverse Justice Watch
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-03-2005 08:40
From: Nolan Nash Whatever you do, don't treat people as individuals. If one person goes over the line, then they're all bad eh? The whole baby with the bathwater treatment.
While I agree that what was said to Katy was over the line, please realize that other folks are in no way responsible. Heck, you refuse to be colored by MJW group association, so why is it ok for you to color us as one entity when we aren't even part of the same group? A little over the line? You are apparently clueless as to what is going on here, and has been going on since I joined five months ago. I have treated you as an individual, and it is to you as an individual that I say again - some friend you are, Nolan. coco |
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Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
Join date: 1 Jul 2004
Posts: 6,734
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09-03-2005 08:40
From: Siggy Romulus Well leck.. if I read this right then you have been smeared and derided...
BUT you still have to be treated like an insect and have your games and business ruined before she's done...
After that me and nolan will meet up with you for your exit poll, insert a large radish in your bottom and your done!
... sorry dude, I don't make the rules up.
Siggy. oooh the radish bottom! Will that make my cowbell explode? 
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YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net ' From: Khamon Fate Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible. Bikers have more fun than people !
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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09-03-2005 08:42
From: Siggy Romulus Well leck.. if I read this right then you have been smeared and derided...
BUT you still have to be treated like an insect and have your games and business ruined before she's done...
After that me and nolan will meet up with you for your exit poll, insert a large radish in your bottom and your done!
... sorry dude, I don't make the rules up.
Siggy. 
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“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
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Fiona Peregrine
Java Junkie
Join date: 9 Jan 2004
Posts: 99
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09-03-2005 08:42
Cocoanut, I really think these are huge generalizations. Take, for example, FlipperPA. He's opinionated. He speaks his mind on the forums. I've seen him put people in their place plenty of times when he didn't agree. He is highly successful in world and has never been run out of anything. I could name a lot of other people as well. I don't think that everyone has been sitting by tolerating racist remarks prior to recent months. I know I personally have confronted people about it in world, and I have never once been suspended by LL or harrassed by a group of people over it. In my opinion it's all in how you go about it. I really don't see the whole of SL as intolerant other than an isolated pocket of people who are here to save SL. I do think when the bashing gets going it can be vicious, that much is true. Fortunately there have been plenty of tolerant people before you got here who do good things for each other. I'm starting to think you somehow have arrived at a very biased view of SL, and since we don't know each other I have no clue why that would be.
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Well behaved women rarely make history-
Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-03-2005 08:45
From: Siggy Romulus actually those " marks mean its a quote.. ie. verbatim , so you better go back and check what your typing there..
I thought they taught that at professional writing 101......
I don't think it was 'contemptable'
I did call the entire group officers the 'douchebags of liberty' though.
now if thats the worst thing you've ever heard anywhere, you should check out Prok's blog.. cos what I say there will curl your toes!
I'll help you with the third nail if you like.. I hear its a real bitch to get in by yourself. Thank you for correcting me. I thought I finally remembered the right word (at least they both started with c's). It's not surprising I forgot, given how shocked I was to read it. My mouth actually literally dropped open. As for Prok's blog, I don't give a damn what you say on it. I don't give a damn what you say to President Bush or your Uncle Charlie. What you say on the official forums - which are supposed to be free to all to participate in with respect and a modicum of expectation of having their human dignity respected - THAT is what I care about. coco |
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
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09-03-2005 08:45
you know, cocoa, as you saw in my post above, i was seriously offended by katy as well. But I don't really expect an apology from her. Nor, at the end of the day, will it change my basic opinion of her as a smart and decent person -- i think my feelings were hurt BECAUSE i hold this opinion of her. From someone else, I simply would have disregarded it out of hand and not thought twice about the matter.
Why is it so hard to treat people like individuals? We have some people making rude comments -- it's not "the forums", it's not the "pack", it's simply individuals expressing their opinion and emotions. Some do it well, some do it poorly, and some do it with the express intention of hurting others (they suck).
Most of us who are engaged here intellectually have made at least one angry post at some time. Cocoa, I've seen some pretty mean ones from you. I know I've lost my temper on Prok in the past.
But I give you the credit of having your own mind and speaking for yourself. The only place I really see "pack" behavior is in the classifieds, when friends rally to support and defend their gang. In the rest of the forums it's pretty much a free-for-all of opinionated individuals.
Even though we all make generalizations, they are insidious things. Katy, who fights so hard for people to be treated as equal individuals, should see the problems in her own blanket statements. You too. Me as well.
just something to keep in mind.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-03-2005 08:47
From: Fiona Peregrine Actually Cocoanut, I've seen some good debate take place here. And a fair amount of muckracking and mudslinging. You take the good with the bad or pretty much just need to pack it up and move on out, because that's how it is. Thanks for the link, Cris. Yow  The mob mentality just keeps recycling and recycling itself. Different names, different groups who supposedly have the ear of the Lindens. Isn't it interesting in a world where we can have so much individuality that people are so focused on this? It seems every few months the tide turns and off we go again. I have never met over half the people on this thread. So why are we lumped into some sort of mystery collective? Do we really want to believe nobody's capable of thinking on their own, and just happening to agree? Seems to me sometimes that paranoia just absolutely runs rampant. I suppose what may occur is that isolated events give validity to the idea that there are groups trying to seize power, and then that notion just spreads to everyone else who happens to be of like minds having conversations. One of the funnier forum things that's happened to me is the time I was accused of being a tool of Enabran's. I forget by whom. I had never actually met Enabran- we'd happened to post like opinions on one thread- but thought "hey, if they think I'm his tool who knows, maybe we'd get along". So I messaged him in world and went to meet him. You know, damn decent guy. Very funny. Never met him before so who knew. Funny you mention that - I tried that, too, but was rebuffed. I don't deny him his right to dislike and rebuff me. I'm just pointing out that I, too, tried that with hope. coco |
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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09-03-2005 08:47
From: Cocoanut Koala A little over the line? You are apparently clueless as to what is going on here, and has been going on since I joined five months ago.
I have treated you as an individual, and it is to you as an individual that I say again - some friend you are, Nolan.
coco After you joined a group that arrogantly thinks that it should be able to review, critique, and amend LL policy, supposedly representing all of us (FOR JUSTICE!), I stopped regarding you as a friend. I don't need friends who have control issues. You need to realize you're not dealing with your children here. Hollow threats won't work.
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“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
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Lynn Lippmann
Toe Jammer
Join date: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 793
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09-03-2005 08:53
From: katykiwi Moonflower No I dont consider my behavior to be reprehensible. There are professions I do not respect such as politicians, but I try not to hate the person becasue they feel differently and decide on that career path. I guess were I raised with hatred for those who are different or make different choices then I might feel differently.
I know I have accomplished good things in my career that are far from the reprehensible conduct you attribute to lawyers, and I gain a good sense of accomplishment from that.
I still dont understand why lack of respect for a profession or an idea or ideal manifests in lack of respect for the individual. Guess thats also the way I was raised. It's simply done by the ways those ideals are presented. Coming to the forums and accusing good-natured individuals of racism, hostile environments, etc., while representing your "client" who by her own writing on these forums is no angel... While I can understand your passion for your clients, I can understand your passion for liberty and a free-world within SL (and outside) -- what I don't understand is the ethics involved in taking on such a case. IF anything, you should be representing your client's financial interests within SL to in a parthership agreement to insure that financial losses do not occur, and not worrying about the portrayal on the forums. I'm sure any client would agree that finances and potential loss of income is a much higher stake (no pun intended) than whether someone has brought up the fact that she was a prostitute and/or uses pidgon english. A trial and jury argument via the forums will never create a positive judgment for your client. Please answer my question. Does either of your existing law firms know that you have created and are advertising a "virtual" or "internet" law firm within SL for mediation purposes? By one of your previous posts by both you and Jake, it seems that you've already received a retainer.
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They give us new smilies  but what about the TOES? Toe the line Linden's! Toes for the Toeless!
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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09-03-2005 08:57
From: Cocoanut Koala Thank you for correcting me. I thought I finally remembered the right word (at least they both started with c's). It's not surprising I forgot, given how shocked I was to read it. My mouth actually literally dropped open.
As for Prok's blog, I don't give a damn what you say on it. I don't give a damn what you say to President Bush or your Uncle Charlie.
What you say on the official forums - which are supposed to be free to all to participate in with respect and a modicum of expectation of having their human dignity respected - THAT is what I care about.
coco Your very welcome! I like to be helpful like that! Cause we like to get our facts straight around here I'm sure.. not just vague recollections of what might have been said eh? But hey, leave my Uncle Charlie outta this, he's done nothing to you - hell he don't even play secondlife, and I'm shocked and appalled that you drag his good name into this to be dragged and smeared like and insect through these forums! Pish, pish on you with knobs on! Siggy.
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-03-2005 08:59
From: Lecktor Hannibal I had a severe lapse in good judgement. I wrote something terrible. I apologized. I'm so glad you're here to pass judgement CoCo. I feel so much better. Thank you for all you do.  Believe me, Hannibal, what you said - though definitely a reportable offense that SHOULD be reported - is merely a drop in the bucket compared to and no worse than what others have said for the past four months, except in packing more into one paragraph and post than the others. And for what it's worth, though I deplore the original post, I did appreciate your apology for it. As in another player's case some time back, who made the mistake of basically outing someone's real life information, then regretted it and apologized for it, I, for one, had great regard for that apology and said so at the time. As to the other individual who also regretted and apologized for his actions, I felt then that he was sincere and had simply made a mistake and I have felt that way ever since. Now, knowing him better, I KNOW that he regretted the mistake he apologized for - regretted it deeply, in fact. I most certainly give the same consideration to you, and similarly feel your apology was sincere. People make mistakes. When others point them out - as they should and must - it is the better part of valor for those others, if they can, to also accept the apology. And when I say others, I speak for myself. coco |
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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09-03-2005 09:03
From: Cocoanut Koala And when I say others, I speak for myself. and a new sig line is born!
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-03-2005 09:03
From: Fiona Peregrine Cocoanut, I really think these are huge generalizations. Take, for example, FlipperPA. He's opinionated. He speaks his mind on the forums. I've seen him put people in their place plenty of times when he didn't agree. He is highly successful in world and has never been run out of anything. I could name a lot of other people as well. I don't think that everyone has been sitting by tolerating racist remarks prior to recent months. I know I personally have confronted people about it in world, and I have never once been suspended by LL or harrassed by a group of people over it. In my opinion it's all in how you go about it. I really don't see the whole of SL as intolerant other than an isolated pocket of people who are here to save SL. I do think when the bashing gets going it can be vicious, that much is true. Fortunately there have been plenty of tolerant people before you got here who do good things for each other. I'm starting to think you somehow have arrived at a very biased view of SL, and since we don't know each other I have no clue why that would be. Flipper? How did he get in here. I have never seen or heard Flipper do a single intolerant or bashing sort of thing. If I have, then I've forgotten it, and if I ever commented on it, then I've forgotten that, too. When I say that there is bashing going on - when I say the ice is getting particularly thin right now and people would do well to take notice of that - when I spend five months trying to prevent bullying of individuals - when I demand a modicum of decency and dignified treatment of people in the forums - I in no way mean that "everybody in this game sucks" or "everybody here is doing something awful." coco |
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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09-03-2005 09:06
And if the Cocoanut Flying Circus is finished its saturday morning sermon.. we can get back on topic...
... a few words about the Metaverse Justice Watch....
..ok
It sploded.
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
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09-03-2005 09:08
From: Siggy Romulus It sploded. gee, why am I not surprised. |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-03-2005 09:10
I reread your post, Fiona, and I think I understand what you are saying now.
I would say that the difference between Flipper and me is not that he is a fine person and I'm the horrid beast I've been made out to be. (Not that he has taken part in any of that.)
The difference is easy to see and has always been: I've defended people in the forums who others dislike. And defended their right to be here with dignity. I've spoken up about this matter. (To a mind-numbingly boring degree, in fact.)
That is why I get the treatment I get here - and in game - and that has of course further colored my experience. Truthfully, I had no idea that sticking up for people's rights to be here was going to turn me into the next vilified victim - and, to add insult to injury, then be accused of having a persecution complex for it.
That has affected me, yes - and made me all the more passionate about it. But it doesn't mean I think of everyone that way. There are really only a relatively small number of people who do this. But that relatively small number are responsible for making the forums a cesspool and keeping other decent players from participating in them, in addition to causing unnecessary emotional pain to people who DO NOT DESERVE IT. Not everybody is as tough as I am, or as tough as maybe some doubtless dang-good lawyers are.
coco
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Fiona Peregrine
Java Junkie
Join date: 9 Jan 2004
Posts: 99
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09-03-2005 09:10
I think you misread what I meant. Not that he's intolerant, that he speaks his mind plenty without getting persecuted and losing his business. Meaning...I don't get how it is that you believe people who speak their minds get run out on a rail, or get overly persecuted. He doesn't. I don't. Plenty don't. Flipper and I are longtime friends so yeah, we have no issues  If you still don't get what I mean I'd be glad to talk to you about it inworld.
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Well behaved women rarely make history-
Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-03-2005 09:12
From: Nolan Nash After you joined a group that arrogantly thinks that it should be able to review, critique, and amend LL policy, supposedly representing all of us (FOR JUSTICE!), I stopped regarding you as a friend. I don't need friends who have control issues. You need to realize you're not dealing with your children here. Hollow threats won't work. Fine, Nolan, it won't be the first time. And frankly all your back and forth is beginning to wear me out. I bear you no malice and will be happy to be friendly to you in the future, but please - this is wearing me out. coco |
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Ardith Mifflin
Mecha Fiend
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,416
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09-03-2005 09:13
I thought Coco's experience would have been a wake up call. Yet somehow, after that 5 and 1/2 hour debacle, she still things she's superior to us. I insulted lawyers. I think it's justified, but I apologized for it because it appeared that katykiwi was being sincere in her desire to move beyond the stupid argument that was taking place. Her complete dismissal of my apology and subsequent harping makes it clear that this is not the case.
As for you: I'd love to see you apologize just once for the heap of bullshit you dump on our heads every day. I apologized. Why can't you?
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-03-2005 09:15
From: Forseti Svarog you know, cocoa, as you saw in my post above, i was seriously offended by katy as well. But I don't really expect an apology from her. Nor, at the end of the day, will it change my basic opinion of her as a smart and decent person -- i think my feelings were hurt BECAUSE i hold this opinion of her. From someone else, I simply would have disregarded it out of hand and not thought twice about the matter.
Why is it so hard to treat people like individuals? We have some people making rude comments -- it's not "the forums", it's not the "pack", it's simply individuals expressing their opinion and emotions. Some do it well, some do it poorly, and some do it with the express intention of hurting others (they suck).
Most of us who are engaged here intellectually have made at least one angry post at some time. Cocoa, I've seen some pretty mean ones from you. I know I've lost my temper on Prok in the past.
But I give you the credit of having your own mind and speaking for yourself. The only place I really see "pack" behavior is in the classifieds, when friends rally to support and defend their gang. In the rest of the forums it's pretty much a free-for-all of opinionated individuals.
Even though we all make generalizations, they are insidious things. Katy, who fights so hard for people to be treated as equal individuals, should see the problems in her own blanket statements. You too. Me as well.
just something to keep in mind. I understand and respect what you are saying here, Foreseti, and I'm not sure how your feelings were hurt (and there are way to many pages to go back and try to dig it out). As I saw it, Katy was speaking out against racism as she MUST. There is nothing personal in it! It is something we HAVE TO DO. And I disagree - I think there is forum mob mentality, tag teaming, all kinds of lynch mob behavior going on here and worse - the libel and ruination of people's characters and businesses on here. I'm not the only person that looks obvious to, and I'm not the only person intent on seeing it come to a halt. coco |
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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09-03-2005 09:16
From: Ardith Mifflin
As for you: I'd love to see you apologize just once for the heap of bullshit you dump on our heads every day. I apologized. Why can't you?
Coz she's tough with darn hootin annie lawyers and we're all skating on thin ice? I dunno, maybe Prok aint told her to say that yet... Siggy.
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-03-2005 09:19
From: Fiona Peregrine I think you misread what I meant. Not that he's intolerant, that he speaks his mind plenty without getting persecuted and losing his business. Meaning...I don't get how it is that you believe people who speak their minds get run out on a rail, or get overly persecuted. He doesn't. I don't. Plenty don't. Flipper and I are longtime friends so yeah, we have no issues If you still don't get what I mean I'd be glad to talk to you about it inworld. OK - I think I get you. Yes, he may be more diplomatic, and state things in a way others regard better. But I can't really help how I present things, can I? I do the best I can with them, and if Flipper gets farther than I do, then that's wonderful. But I would disagree about the mob mentality thing. I think it is obvious that individuals get treated abomonimably and indefensibly here, that others tag them them in doing it, and I shouldn't have to point out things like "condescending douchebag" ad infinitum add a thousand others to prove it. I think it is obvious that people get run out of town on a rail here. If you don't agree, well, then we just don't agree on that part. coco |
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
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09-03-2005 09:20
From: Cocoanut Koala But I can't really help how I present things, can I? *blink* |
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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09-03-2005 09:23
Since the Metaverse Justice Watch sploded, I think we're seeing a new group form:
The Martyrdom Juvenile Watch.
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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Lynn Lippmann
Toe Jammer
Join date: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 793
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09-03-2005 09:25
LOL! This is such justice. Now the saying is... "It's not even MY fault how I present my thoughts and feelings on a subject... I can't help it."
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They give us new smilies but what about the TOES? Toe the line Linden's! Toes for the Toeless!
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