Open Letter to So Many Anti-Government Whiners

That would be soooo cool! My wifes 'Dream Build' was a speakeasy / flapper bar. That would rock..

Siggy.

Excellent point Chip! It worries me that pro-government people are spreading that myth in order to promote an agenda. I'm shocked by how many new people I meet who have no idea that they are allowed to IM a Linden if they have a problem or who think that Philip's email address is some closely guarded secret that only the elite have (despite him giving it out at every town hall and asking people to write if they have questions or concerns).
I think most of us who remember a much smaller SL world will never accept the idea of having to go through representatives to address issues with LL, and I sure hope that the majority of newer people never accept that either. This is YOUR world, and the Lindens are here for YOU. You don't need anyone else to help you find your voice.

Well..aside from you being Philip's alt, I agree completely, but also reiterate that there is just no way to equally represent these supposedly voiceless folks. Some will yell and scream and complain, others will trudge quietly along. So the loudest voice wins? And if folks don't know that they can send reports to LL or call costumer service directly, then perhaps educating them on the tools already in place would be far more efficient than forming a government and getting folks to use/acknowledge them.

Alrighty now...I have kept silent thru the last barrage of govt threads. Mostly because most people were against it and the ones who wanted it went off to their own little piece of governance. I do not consider myself lazy. I am a hard working builder in SL and darn proud of my work. Many people have hired me and I have had the freedom to build what they wanted and they have had the freedom to enjoy what I have built for them. I am afraid of losing this freedom.


As a matter of fact, yes I did have a heinous experience with a player run government in a place called Cybertown. Players had banning tools given to them and they were used in a heinous manner, altho they were not used on me. I was a member of a part of the govt called CERB(Citizens Equity Review Board) which would review all bannings and recommend overturning them if the board saw fit and we did...but....the mayor(highest power in the land) had veto power and would veto our results. It was at this point that I felt the unfairness of this type of govt. and left. The power corrupted and left a very bad taste in my mouth. I have to live in rl with a govt that I did not vote into power and I do not want to live under a regime in my SL like I do in my RL. So yes...I do believe there could be a purge. Someone looks at someone crosseyed and boom...gone. The lindens are a step removed from the player base and as such have more objective outlook on things. A player govt would not.


With a quote like that...*shakes head*...no...no govt. not by people like you.


This is a good example of what I was talking about before. It looks like there would be a few folks you would like to ban. Would probably include me now. You see....just because we disagree is no reason to question our intelligence and imagination. I think I have proven thru my builds that I have plenty of that.

Do you think that everyone who has a differing opinion than you full of crap? Another scary example of why there should be no player run govt.

I don't gripe and am quite content with my own backyard. I have a little piece of nirvana that I do not want regulated. I live peacefully with my neighbors and have taken care of my own conflicts. Nobody else has to run their future past me...but at the same token..they better not ram theirs thru me.


*raises hand* Ohhhh....by the way...I don't rent. I rent out some of the land I own to newbies. I OWN MY LAND...unless the lindens decide to take it away...and thats the only ones I want to have the authority to do so.


This is the real scary part. Just what powers are they giving you? Banning powers? Pffft..my days are numbered then.

I don't run anybodys Second life for them and I do not want anybody running my Second Life for me. It is your dream not mine. Self govt is only a power trip. Self Govt is not needed. There is room in SL for many visions and you have yours. Just let me have mine. Flame away......and please notice my sig.

I can look at it from the other end Chip...

I'm not rich After playing a stab at 'merchant' I found it not to my liking

I'm not SL rich, and I'm certainly not RL rich - at the end of the month if my bills are paid and have enough left over for to grab a few movies, a pizza, and a 12 pack - I'm happy.

From my questions at day 1 to today LL have always replied to my queries/questions/reports in the same manner... and talking to others I found their dealings with LL have been treated much the same as mine... fair, reasonable, cordial, and impartial.

Until I see otherwise, I'll chock this up to a SL Urban myth...

Siggy.

Isn't this just another case of a solution desperately seeking a problem?

First, I want to apologize ahead of time to the two people, Talen and Pendari, that I know and respect that are a part of this project but make no apology whatsoever to the bottom feeders in charge of Neualtinburg. I promised that I would walk away quietly, which I have done, but bulls**t as thick as Kathy spews needs to be shoveled.


You mis-spoke there Kathy. I have fixed it for you:

… surely follow the first “democrat” election in Second Life.


note to Kathy: Neither will you


ummm… ditto… good riddance to you and your little failed liberal govt project


ROFL… this is your arrogant, conceeted, short sightedness… to think you didn’t need ANYONE but your little lib friends to make this work. NOT

You reap what you sew Kathy. Maybe if you and your pals had shown a little capacity to work with a few conservatives this project might have worked. Instead, you acted just like you sound here and ran rough-shot over anyone who disagreed with your agenda. Maybe if you had treated others with even a little respect then you wouldn’t be watching the project circle the bowl as we speak. pfft


If this were true then there would be no need for this thread… hehe… too bad… so sad


Aren’t those 2 sentences telling… LOL. It is YOU who is important in YOUR own mind. Nobody outside your little lib buddies gives a shit about what you are doing. As for making our lives a living hell… rofl… this is too much… rofl… you just made my day as I will be laughing at you for the rest of the evening


Ahem… words YOU need to read and take to heart… You seem to be the only one who thinks it’s “your yard” and that you are “the boss” etc… this is pathetic.


Oh… rofl… I don’t think it will EVER inconvenience me… it’s NEVER gonna happen


I think that it is perfectly clear to anyone reading your words where the “temper tantrums and pouting” comes from… hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I… I… me… me… my… rofl… the world does not revolve around you Kathy… lol… the fact is that very few people give a crap about your little lib govt project.

A game-wide govt imposed on all residents would be the death blow to SL. The “will of the people” is to be free from the corruption that a player run govt would surely bring. Especially one that does not welcome people with opposing views to take part.

Buh bye

BINGO!!!!

This is the exact reason that player run govt will NEVER work on a game-wide scale.

Actually, it’s not so much about how people are treated. Preferential or not. As I said, that will always be up to the Lindens. It’s rather about being heard.

Not that people are under thumbs. It’s about the fact that the are the 5% here, the bug reporters, and the chatters-at-Welcome. Otherwise, linden has to govern according to complaints and momentary social rants and upheavals.

I just mean to make it more available.

It makes more sense that a group of Second Life poets should get to speak just as loudly as a group of Leftists, or Club owners, or Nudists, or DaBoom residents. Not that they get more VOTES, but that they get as much time and attention to speak.

Well, if you had done even a glance at it, you'd have gathered by now that I am NOT proposing a government that has any power to compell anyone to do anything. The Lindens do that. This model is only representational. It's so everyone gets HEARD.

The actuall government is voluntary, and the roots are already in place. The groups and regions send reps. That's all. Then we listen, and compile. maybe talk about the various issues, offer each other help, suggestes, pass the Linden stuff to the Lindens, and the minutes to the rest of the world and go home.

Ok, this thread has been a long read all at once. Im sort of exhausted. This is my take so far. Kathy posted a revised proposal and I saw this quote in there...


It seems to me that a resident run goverment will not be fully embraced and the minority of people choosing to participate will have a louder voice than it merits. I disagree that some people do not have the ability to be represented. Each and every one of us has the same opportunity to speak with a Linden in world or via [email]support@secondlife.com[/email] .

On page 9...


Resident government cant be all things to all people. LL does take the various daily complaints every day and they get the complete picture about the things that are reported. Contacting the lindens directly is indeed convenient, and I am assured that my issue is, indeed my issue, not a voted on watered down version of what a minority thinks best sums it up.

This predisposition of yours to assume that folks aren't reading what you post is worn out and haggard. To me it just appears to be a device invented for the sole purpose of dismissing any counter points.

To clarify, I did read it. It and every word of every single other post from you within this thread and any others that we have both been a part of. I simply don't see huge problems looming on the horizon if we don't adopt some sort of representational system. The sky will not fall and the real problem of griefing will still exist. I see player repesentation as red tape. Will you allow me that point of view?

For the record, I myself do not have the ear of ANY Linden. As a matter of fact, with the exception of filing bug reports and contacting Andrew about a recent mystery prims issue I have on some of my parcels, I have had zero correspondence with any Linden in months and I certainly do not beseech them in the forums to solve my problems with other players, functionality issues, government, etc.

Ok. You’re absolutely right. I’m not proposing “government” in it’s true form. Actually, I’m trying to construct a representational conference “with a benevolent dictatorship as the ruler.”


My goal is actually two-fold. First, I wanted to break through the folk-assumption that “government” is a bad thing to even mention. That only wackos even consider it. I meant to come out swinging, and then to try to repeat my concept until it was understood by those few who wanted to give it a minute. You apparently did so. Thanks.

Sorry for the opening salvo, It wasn’t directed at anyone in particular – just at those who are so glibly insulting whenever anyone tries to think up a way to improve things. I think, though, I’ve shown the “horse” ain’t dead yet. And isn’t likely to die soon.

The other goal I had was to actually bring up that very question: what do we mean, and need, from “government”?

I think you are correct about what we have so far. A benevolent dictator coupled with a low-key (usually) anarchy. I’m simply proposing that we replace the anarchy with a process that represents any sort of grouping that SLers might want to create.

I agree with you on this, Kathy. I just disagree that representative government is the answer, as I think it could end up doing as much to dillute people's voices as it would to empower them. If it ever does come to pass though I hope it's something as benign as what you're suggesting. My personal opinion is that educating people about the communication channels already available to them and instituting in-world UI mechanisms for disseminating information, polling and voting would be more helpful. I'd always rather have the ability to speak directly than through several committees

Points taken. Good input is rare and appreciated.

Can you give me a bit more thought on how this could dilute peoples' voices?

Of course.

Jesus, Billy. I hope for your sake you're a 16 year old boy. Between the infantile chiding and the litany of misspellings, you're about one step above Beavis and Butthead.

Speaking of taxes, maybe we should put a L$50 tax on the use of the acronym "rofl".

~Ulrika~

Sorry. No taxes. Period.

I don't mind paying them, but I hate having any part in creating them.

Besides, that isn't a power given to the People in this model. The Lindens can tax.

Ever play "telephone" when you were a kid? hehe. The more people a message goes through before being delivered to the intended recipient, the less it will resemble the intent of the original speaker.

That was a joke. I would never tax the word "rofl".

~Ulrika~

lol this again.

If by some wild stretch of the imagination, there is an offical player run government, what makes anyone think it will have any teeth?

Their policies will be adopted IF AND ONLY IF it doesnt negatively affect the Linden's bottom line.

Plus, those with greater amounts of cash will hold more influence with the playerbase. Dont believe me? Whydya think the money balls are so popular?

So, money in the form of land tiers influencing the Lindens on the one side ... money influencing the player base on the other.

Think about that for a minute.

Are you REALLY sure you want a player run government?

You'll be handing the power to the very people who many claim are "oppressing" everyone else.

Might want to think this one over a bit .....


-AP

Edit: minor corrections

Couple books to recommend:
[italic]Groupthink: Psychological Studies of Policy Decisions and Fiascoes, by Irving L. Janis[/italic]
Haven't read this since some political science classes (my major) over 10 years ago, but it is a great read on how some of the most well-meaning and intelligent people can go wrong in politics (for those designing a local government, good read on how to structure or not structure)

[italic]The Future of Freedom: Illiberal Democracy at Home and Abroad, by Fareed Zakaria[/italic]
Great book on dangers of democracy without liberal institutions and protection of minority voice.


Note: Ulrika, i have nothing against you, but all I see is an approach that says "if you disagree with me, you are not listening to me" and accusations against your opposers as either lacking in knowledge or acting like junior high students. I really fail to see how that is true or productive. You simply incite an emotional reaction not a rational response.

Kathy: it sounds to me like you want to create a union more than a government. You want to mobilize the masses to better negotiate for the things people want but cannot argue for -- strength in numbers. No one will stop you -- people just want it to be opt in. Just be aware of the dangers of union leadership and structures when you design it. So many unions start out fighting for a good cause and turn into entitlement-oriented, corrupt institutions. Part of human nature and human politics unfortunately.

Absolutely! You are talking my talk Forseti! In our experiment we created a separate branch of the government to protect the citizens from their elected representatives. They have the right to veto laws on philosophical and scientific grounds. Further we employed ranked voting (the Borda-count method) and the Saintë-Lague method of seat allocation, both which favor minority voices!

Guilty as charged. I like to box the ears of the nay-sayers once in a while because it amuses me. I am never always in logical-discussion mode. Instead I fluctuate between logical, playful, aggressive, and funny. You'll get used to it.

~Ulrika~

I cant possibly imagine how anything would ever get accomplished under such a system.