Open Letter to So Many Anti-Government Whiners

People complain about a government since it is not really needed and will only serve to restrict(I for one don't think I'll be gaining anything by having a government(from the government at least).

But I'd still be interested in seeing one... Because I'm sure, atleast in it's first few incarnations, it will fail miserably and cause a huge mess(or be so unimportant no one will care). I yearn for civil unrest. I yearn to have a failable enemy. The possiblities of riots and even a revolution exist. The Linden's sit in safety while a player government will not.

Oh, and what about scandals, bribary and corruption? I can dig it.

I love that sort of stuff.

Happy land sucks, lets see some trouble stir up.

Apart from being slightly astounded by the arrogance of the statement, I'm STILL wondering why, the issue can't be resolved with a vote of the "people".

Ok..now that was arrogant of you. So if we disagree or see no value in player-governments, then we are ignorant of government? Umm..ever think that we see no value in an SL player-run government because we actually know how real governments function?

Us "nay-sayers" keep asking the same questions over and over, and you SL government "yay!-sayers" have yet to answer them. What power would it actually have, and why is it needed. As far as I can tell, it would have no enforcable power, and would only be an additional red-tape step toward the resolution tools already in place.

So get on with it. You have the power. Do it and quit "whining". Or does it actually matter to you what we think?

I guess what I am getting from your posts here is that you think that the Lindens give some sort of special value to what regular forum posters think. I would like to see proof of that. If you are so worried that what 15% of the SL populace who participate in the forums think then perhaps you might consider ignoring them and organize a grass roots movement in-world. I don't think that LL is going to take a yes or no stand on this issue, nor will they force upon us a government or outlaw one because of views expressed by EITHER side on these forums. So what is the point of slamming people who have different views from yours? As you stated, this would be an organization of local governments. Go start some. Why argue with those who are clearly against it? It's quite clear you're not going to be able to change their minds and slinging vitriol certainly isn't strengthening your argument. It would have been one thing if this thread was created to try and recruit like-minded people but it wasn't. I was clearly started in an argumentative vein and now you have just that. An argument. Go figure.

So, in other words, you want to impose your wishes for how it will be on the rest of us?

You have your government. I have heard at least 2 N-bergers state that they wish to expand it through "spin-off cities". Go to it. Please quit badgering those who don't want it.

Oh really?

Took the words out of my mouth.

There is. Leftists, Lunatics and Liberals group forum and the Neualtenberg group forum. Somehow I don't think this fact fits your end game.

My primary goal within SL is to goof off... For me there is nothing more important than this... It's why I joined, it's why I stay. I have all the 'important stuff' anyone could wish for in real life.

Everyone plays for thier own reasons - So long as everyone does their own thing without treading on other peoples toes, then all is well.

If some people want to play corporated big dog, president, or what have you - more power to them.. so long as it doesn't affect my goofing off.

And in return I will try not to have my goofing off affect others game.

I don't support any of this simply because it doesn't offer me anything - nor does it advance my goofing off.. So if it doesn't really offer me anything I don't already have/can't already do - why should I throw in my lot?

Siggy.

Because they realize they will lose such a vote.

Why is it that LL can't represent all of the players, yet a player government could? Will this government have a magic wand? A crystal ball? The ability to read minds? The government would be able to represent those that want to be an active part of the government, and not anyone else. Thus a very tiny section of SL.

And every player now has the tools to contact LL directly, which seems far more representative then a group of players deciding what issues are important to them.

Please explain as I asked earlier how can you represent me better than I can represent myself.
Are you a Lawyer?
Are you God?
I think not therefore you can't represent me period.

Shadow

So, what crawled up your butt and died?

Are you saying this because you don't like me? Or because of my outlandish government model?

If the former, then shut up and go away. You aren’t going to make me cry.

If the other, then I’d like to hear your clearly thought out arguments against the particulars of my model.

I started this to get the discussion going and finally get it through to you and people like you that merely dismissing us as wackos isn’t going to do the trick. This will be discussed.

And, I’ll prepare you, if this model DOES take effect, then all SORTS of people will be heard without your permission or approval.

Does that make you even madder?

LOL... nice post Camille

Exactly. No one can represent me better than myself within an atmosphere like SL.

The only issue that the Lindens and SLers seem to have trouble dealing with is griefers. A player government would not have the necessary tools or administrative power to deal with them. So we have to let the Lindens deal with it even if they are lacking a bit in that department. Zoning, and all the other things being promised by pro-government folks can all be dealt with through groups, which are in effect our de-facto local governments.

This Vicious Cycle repeates itself time and again and continually gets smacked down.

What is N-Berg .001 percent of the population?
When its said that this forum is 10% and at least 9% here are saying No right off the bat how many times does NO Government need be said?

How many times does the arrogant ditribe of "You just dont know its comming" need to be thrown at us like a pack of heckling Jackles loosing the battle to the Lions.

Those that fail to read history are doomed to repeat it over n over n over n over...I'd say Kathy and Ulrika need to get busy in a college class of understanding comprehensive reading. It might break thier hearts but maybe then they would get the point.

Shadow..The Ancient

Shadow,

As I said, you don’t NEED to be represented. EVERYone listens to you. You have the Lindens’ ears. You speak well in the forums. You know who to talk to to get what you need.

You are invited to participate, but NOT REQUIRED to participate. In fact, it would likely be a waste of time on your part, unless you were there to represent someone less empowered, of course.

I can’t represent you better than you can yourself.

But aren’t there people who you can represent who might actually need it?

If that is the criteria... I will hapilly whine right beside you Chip. But it seems to me that Kathy is the only one "whining".

Not really. I was saying through analogy that there are some who see the benefit of planned structure and some who value individual libertarianism. Having technocrats (Jauani taught me that word last week) talk to individual libertarians is like college professors trying to talk junior-high students into behaving.

I feel this subject is really a conflict between individual interests and the common good. Some of us do not want our individual interests affected and others are seeking to maximize the common good. Read up on the tragedy of the commons -- I picked up the link from Chris Linden I believe.

Naturally, being a veteran of the forums, I know that link won't be followed or discussed. Instead we'll engage in combat over whether or not the analogy was really an insult or not, while people throw out canned "no govt in SL" posts and compare me to Hitler or Stalin.

Hey. That's second life though. Come for the 3D immersive world, stay for the belligerent forum contrarians.

~Ulrika~

I really have nothing against Kathy's model. It's relatively benign and seeks nothing other than to give a voice to those who are assumed not to have one... it's that assumption that bothers me. Does it not occur to people that so many people remain silent because they don't really have any issues or problems? Kathy said something (that I can't seem to find now and am too lazy to look for it) about the "connected" people and the rich having the Linden's ear and receiving preferential treatment. There is not now, nor has there ever been, a shred of proof that this actually exists. If it were true, since I'm rich, I should have a red phone connected right to Philip's office. I don't, and to my knowledge I have never asked for or received any special treatment whatsoever. This supposed need for representative government seems based on the assumption that there's some kind of voiceless and repressed underclass too timid to speak up and under the thumb of the "favored" class. I think that's popular mythology and hogwash. YMMV.

This government will – true – only represent those who want it to. But, given the alternative representative bodies, this is an improvement. Especially since a group can enter or leave the process anytime it likes. I think a representational government that only represents those who want to be represented is representational enough.

LL can’t be all things to all people. And they can’t take 1000 various complaints a day and get a picture of how the public really feels about things. They only know what complaints they’re getting.

Contacting them directly is convenient, but hardly representative.

Hey, we could ban clubs and then have underground speak-easys, hiding from the eye of the law!

Don't half ass the government idea! Go for opressive rule!

Ironically I almost asked you this same question when I first read your insult riddled thread starter post.


Listen Mom, I don't think that we have to do a point by point analysis of your model to disagree. For myself, I reject the notion of any players deciding how it's going to be for the rest of us. So your model, even if I agreed with it 100% has no bearing on my position. I would like to see a SL wide vote to decide whether or not we want a player run government before any self appointed nation builders try to push their vision on the rest of us. Let's keep the horse in front of the cart for now.

But, thats the whole point isn't it Kathy, I don't want to represent anyone but myself or as a voice of colusion from my friends. But at the same time its not a goverment not per the definition. I think that is the issue here is the word government in its definition elates to specific services rendered. I only offer clothing and builds to the world for a price so that makes me an Anti-Government Capitalist. Mercinary if you will.

However, back on topic the whole point that people get upset about is the arrogance and hell yeah I responded with vehemence earlier it took me 4hours to piecemeal what I did as I was working. But you need to find new key words new definitions of what you think you want to achieve and not come off as some arrogant power hunger individual that wants to rule the masses through dictatorship.

People say Democracy as though its a dirty word. People say Communsim as though its a dirty word. Each has thier down falls but no goverment even a Monarchy has a truly palatible end to it. Any Goverment what ever model presented still requires the citizens to give up certain rights to attain security in other areas.

But in SL what securities would we need? I mean seriously, No foriegn enemys that can Kill my wife n Kid so No need to support any SL Militia.

LL has stated repeatedly the only value in the Linden money is that of what we percieve it to be on GOM and IGE.

Griefers wow lets really go there today as that would be a spin off from hell wouldnt it considering the 4 other threads on it right now.

There is Nothing in the True definition of the word government that any group of players can offer any single player that would honestly benifit them.

You can educate them yes but in essence through education is that not a form of control.

If you were to take over a country whats the first people you want on your side first.

The Educators and the subsequently the government officials that you can convert along with the religious leaders. These are people that people trust.

We have none of that in SL its an Anarchy with a benevolent dictator as the ruler.

So please explain whats the point of a Government no matter the model in SL?

Shadow

Kathy - if this is indeed possible, then another approach might be to form a group of people who make a discerned effort to go in world and work thorough existing groups to solicit input and address specifically Bugs and Features? Sort of like a "Bug Fixer Union" (I'm not trying to be cute here but I do like the name)

This is far less threatening than a self-government though the Bug Fixer Union could be run internally like a self government.

The BFU could allow people who do not post on the forums or have "connections" to have a say and representatives of the BFU could present their findings to LL. This would be in addition to and in conjunction with existing avenues, such as bug reporting and forum posts.

One need not have an opinion in order to present the statistical opinions of others if it is their wish.

If forming a group of people dedicated to pushing that [bug fixes and features] agenda would get it done faster and better, when the w00t! Count me in.

Everyone would like to see bugs fixed and new features.

No one wants to be kicked off their land or be told what to do.