Open Letter to So Many Anti-Government Whiners

One thing that a government could possibly bring is AN END TO GIANT PURPLE TEXT >: (

I don't know, that might hurt Hiro quite a bit.

*checks privates to see if a guy*

nope, I'm how I was when I was born.

Well said. I aggree completely.

People who want the reigns of government power are the ones to be watched closely. Kathy actually scared me in her opening post.

Briana Dawson

Here’s the model – in short, since I can’t find the copy I posted to the forums before;

The government I’m proposing is optional. If you want to form a group and sent a rep, then you’ll have to treat your members according to the TOS, CS, and our constitution. This should really amount to possible guidelines like not charging taxes, or not discriminating, or stuff flike that. Frankly, I would expect such a constitution to be about a page long.

Your group (either a Group or an area government) will send one rep. It doesn’t matter whether you have a big region or a small one, since there is no VOTING at the national level, and every rep has an equal right to submit his issues.

If your region or group doesn’t want to send a rep, then you certainly don’t have to. There are no compulsions except those that the Lindens place on us all.

The only difference between what the national committee does and what you can do on your own is that the national committee is representative and can speak as such to the Lindens and to the Public. It’s up to the Lindens and the Public how much they want to listen, but it at least gives EVERYONE the OPPORTUNITY to be represented. We do NOT have that now. Some of you don’t mind, because you see no need. But there are many who are not being heard. You all complain about the Elite, the Content Barons, the people with close ties to the Lindens, or who have lots of money. Well, now your own group or area can have an equal voice, and the guarantee that it will be presented to the Lindens.

For those of you who already enjoy this kind of access, regardless of what you think of those who haven’t managed it themselves, I think it would be gracious of you to let the less-represented have an opportunity to represent themselves.

As for “police” I really see no need for such a thing. Perhaps, if the Lindens want it, we can have some resident assistance there. I think it’s in the CS. But that wouldn’t be part of my model. If anything, it might provide a place to iron out disputes in voluntary arbitration, subject in final to appeal to the Lindens. Even that process would take a load off the Lindens, the community, the neighbors, and the rest of us. And, of course, anyone who doesn’t want it can do it the old fashioned way. Gripe to the Lindens.

On the other hand, it would probably be usual for your group or area to ask you to talk to the national committee for arbitration. Unless you aren’t part of a participating group, in which case you’ll have to go it alone. Though I suppose you could ask the arbitrators to help even then, if you wanted.

With no voting at the national level, and all jobs subject to the consensus of the reps, and no budget or taxes, there is very little power to be corrupted. Since all meetings are public, there’s no backroom politics. There will be no complexity. The composition of the committee can change as needed, and at the pleasure of the reps.

By “consensus” I mean that everyone should agree on something before it happens. If there is someone who cant agree, then they should be allowed to speak. If the committee sees no affect on the consensus, then the dissent can either stand down, withdraw from the government, or insist. If the dissent insists, then the item does not go forward. It can be brought up again at another meeting. There are exceptions: the minutes and rep statements must be passed to the Lindens and to the Public. And I imagine there will be some constitutional elements to prevent one rep from discorporating the committee.

So, the reps come from their own groups. They have all the power. They can act individually, equally (except for the extra power given to the minority), and can always be heard.

Holding my hand up happily to being (by YOUR definition) a "whiner".
(Equally, my signature keeps me happy..
These government threads get done to death, to the point that I truly wish there could simply be a seperate forum for them.
However......
I've always been of the belief that the simple way forward, and have stated it before, is for the pro government lobby, and the anti, to produce a prospectus. For the Linden's to then send that out, and for EVERYONE to then vote on whether they want it in SL, or not.
Not just the people who read these forums. EVERYONE in SL.
If the pro government wins......cool...that's democracy. Get on and create a government. I'll be happy to accept that I'm in a minority.
If the ANTI government vote wins......then it would be nice to see this topic finally put to rest.
My opinion.

Vixen has the quote in her sig line.

No. My words were - at the beginning of my posting at least - directed to all the "Don't try self-government or I'm outta here" people. I have no problem with people who want to talk about it and work it out.

Robin Linden: "it isn't our intention to make governing a 'game' or requirement of Second Life."




Nor is it mine.

It is not a game, and my model does not make it a requirement.

Anyone listening?

If your model or wish does not make it a requirement, what did you mean in the above excerpts?

In my model, the reps are accountable to their own groups – and only their own groups. It doesn’t matter how the rep is chosen at the group level, or if he gets replaced by them.

It doesn’t matter if it’s an alt or someone’s cat. If the group wants him, the group sends him.

Pardon?

The inevitability of SOME government is clear.

My own model is merely one way that you can have a government and not have the dire disaster that so many simply announce must result.

Government is going to happen.

It’s your choice what kind you have.

I choose a locally-based representational model with the power at the bottome and the communication at the top.

We have a 'government' - they are called Lindens.
We have a 'constitution' - it's called the TOS.

What we don't have is a group of players deciding for other players how to play SL.

Out of pure curiosity why do you believe it is inevitable? Have you heard something?

Once again. read my proposal. I'm not suggesting that anyone tell anyone else what to do.

Yes it is specifically this line: They’ve publicly offered to give us the power to move past the level of self-indulgence and constant wanking that seems to be the norm for some of you. I say we’ll do just that. We’ll see what grand creations and arts we’re capable of when the citizens solve their own problems instead of whining to the sheriff and his posse.

that I find disturbing.

80% of my time in SL is spent making things on my own land. The other 20% is spent flying around looking at what others have created.

Once I had a good neighbor in Apokahai stop by and ask me to fix a trench on my land that the viewer on my client had missed seeing. We worked it out, I fixed it and everybody was cool. 90% of most disputes can be worked out this way.

Sometimes I am bothered by griefers, most of whom, I've thought were amusing in a sad sort of way in their vie for attention. Some, I thought were down right funny (which seems to upset them because they obviously were expecting a reaction other than laughter). The only police action I've ever had to take was when someone locked me in a cage and push gunned me out of the sim while on my own land. The Lindens arrived along with live help and I was freed from the cage and have had no problems since.

Bugs I report, features I post and on occasion I post about bugs too in order to validate someone elses inquiry or inquire about them myself. (That's what the forums are for).

So ... what do we need a government for?

It eludes me. Do you think that with representation we would have quicker bug fixes and better features?

If you think that self government would serve to resolve disputes then this is where I take issue with the idea. In order to do that, Lindens would abdicate banning power to a group of players.

This is where I take the high road and say: Buh bye, so sorry, it's not fun anymore.

I come to SL to escape power driven asshats that have actual control over my actions.

If you watch closely, you'll see the Lindens starting to build in things that we needed to do ourselves. For instance, the citizen review for the police blotter.

There are things we need. Well, the ones who aren't rich, vocal or connected.

SOMEone will have to meet the needs.

Ok..I still can't figure out what a player government would be able to do?

They are never gonna get a majority buy-in.

If a group of five people in a sim want to call themselves a government and send a representative to the Govenor's Mansion to discuss issues, it's not going to change anything for those other folks in the sim that don't want to be governed.

A player government will have no more ability to change LL policy or enforce "rules" or requirements than any other non-government player petition/report.

Folks can call themselves a government all they want, but if they have no one to govern, or anyway to make folks follow thier decisions, then it's really just play-acting and roleplaying. I can call myself a stud but that doesn't make me one..well..ok..I am one..but you get the idea..

LL is interested in being profitable. If they suddenly handed the reins of ruling to player reps, they would no doubt lose more customers than they would gain. It would be like pointing to Alby and saying, "You make the decisions for this group of 1000 residents, and we won't require any proff that it's what they all want".

It just won't happen, because it's not needed and won't work.

While Kathy's post was aggressive, it was aggressive for the RIGHT reasons. If you look at the forums as a bunch of linear one-offs (threads) that exist independently of each other, then go ahead and be offended. However, if you browse the forums regularly and understand that one's thoughts and emotions don't end when Jeska locks the thread, you will notice that the same vitriolic responses to topics like this are posted ad nauseam. Kathy didn't start this tone. You did.

I never knew so many dead horse joke variations existed. Give it up. We all know that each of us is a brilliant comic genius, so why crap it out over and over again all over the forums ( when the intention is to gang up and beat someone repeatedly with post after post of hijacks and humor-veiled insults)?

The insane efforts you people go through to win "wittiest retort to a pinko thread" amazes me. Some of the replies in these threads have a really strange "Rodney Dangerfield leading the Heaven's Gate Cult to the red punch" feeling. Like a militia taking over Saturday Night Live.

Oh, and to dispel recent rumors that I am the new leader of the SDF after a virtual coup (the same one that will destroy all of your second lives with big government):

I have only met Kendra and Ulrika once at Cristiano's birthday party, and Kathy once at Ahern. We never spoke politics or SL governance. Just Sayin'

As to the topic at hand, I haven't given SL governance enough thought to start throwing punches at either side with caustic humor.

I have been writing on this off and on this afternoon but decided to post it anyway because it still represents how I feel from reading the initial post before everyone else replied. I am sure there is a lot of duplication as I was writing this in word and not here on the forums.





Rather pragmatic way to open a thread is it not Kathy? So because I am Vehemently against a Player run government I am either a coward or lazy? I mean please let me understand this fully considering the condescension in your initial statement.



News flash Kathy, its not the “Heinous experiences with player governments” it’s the fact that LL is giving it a hands off approach. There are no teeth in this shark and it will gum you to death wooooo ouch! Player run government pfft.



Actually, Kathy I have been working off experience with the curmudgeons like you that would suit themselves to be in charge. But don’t worry I’m not going anywhere especially after that call to battle you just presented. Insulting the enemy as you did just made the resolve to ensure cretins with such an vehement attitude never attain a government or status and any power over any one individual.



Oh so I’m baggage, Hmmm, interesting analogy considering the full spectrum of government official wannabe’s out there. Consider this Kathy why don’t you go back to sleep. Why? Because, apparently you were not around for the massive discussions that were about player run governments in Second Life. Obviously, you have no clue what you are talking about. Did you decide to wake up this day and spout of rhetoric and wait for everyone to fall down at your feet saying “OMG Kathy your so wise and smart and may the Coward baggage get hit in the ass as they leave SL.” Grow up!



Not if I have anything to say about it be prepared. I will stand against this till Second Life crumbles. The noted dramatic dissention within the ranks or “Neualtenburg” have been duly noted in the past and the moment it tries to cascade into the mainstream populace be prepared as the Troll standing in your path will be me with an army of opposition at my back.



WOW, how self-righteous and vehement can you be? To presume for a minute that you could be or want to be my savior in Second Life scares the hell out of me. Who is We? The whimpering pack of I want a government, I wannabe in control freaks? I don’t have to worry about people conspiring against me I just have to combat idiocy such as this especially when it is presented in such a down your nose attitude. I just caught this apparently by you posting this you must think you’re important in your own mind. Well no wonder after all the smoke that had been blown up your ass in the past. I guess it all went to your head.




That’s right its not your yard and your not gonna be the damn boss either.
So what we pay rent and you did or do not sure if you have a Life time account or not.
But if you don’t then what the fuck do you care for?
You know attitudes like this is exactly why people don’t want a player run government.
People that want to be in charge or people that want to grief will want to be in charge and in the process the whole process will end up imposing on the rights of the citizens at large.
Mob mentality and arrogant down your nose attitudes such as yours would be the reason a Player run government won’t work as politicians or wannabe politicians are corrupt Period.
Power corrupts and with that knowledge I will combat any one person or group of persons having control over SL other than the Lindens.

So on a non-sarcastic response you would ask me why? It’s simply this as you stated we rent well in that renter’s agreement the “TOS” and “CS” I was given a set of rules to adhere to. I agreed to these rules and accepted the policy that went along with it. I didn’t pay rent to adhere to you, your friends or anyone else’s rules.
Second Life is a vast multi cultural multi lingual environment. To presume for one minute that any one individual has the right or say over another even through a group or mini government is wrong. But, you want to know what is even funnier I am considered Anti-Government yet it’s not really government I am opposed to as much as it is self righteous indignatious attitudes of individuals that presume their group think knows what’s best for me, my land and my business.

Especially when they come off as you have that you think your way is right and that because I am against your proposal or “Government” I am a Coward or Lazy. Get a Grip Kathy as apparently you have lost it this time.



You know, of the entire thread, this is the only semi-intelligent thing you have said thus far. Damn lot of telling people to basically fuck off if they don’t agree with you to get to a simple statement about how things need to change.



I’m not out to hurt your feelings I’m out to show you how ludicrous you sound in your condescending attitude towards those that are opposed to your view points. How insidiously self-indignant can you be hmmm? So should I say get over yourself?



To quote her word for word “Don’t let the selfish and arrogant run your Second Life for you.” Don’t let the power hunger self-indignant presume for a minute they know what is best for your Second Life. Don’t Leave. Oppose them and show them that a cargo hold of baggage can crush them when it falls out of a 747.



I used to have a lot of respect for you Kathy. But this whole open letter just proved you went off the deep end of stupidity. For someone to be so self absorbed to even think they know what’s best for me or even others is so small minded and petty. I’m sorry that you seem to have this I’m better than everyone else is attitude.

Each person is unique in his or her own way but this uniqueness of yours is that of true ignorance to hide behind a stance of government to achieve change.

If you’re so strong why don’t you affect change on your own with your own voice your own opinion without the aid of a “Government”

You mentioned several times people complaining and whining…wow is that not what you are doing here? I mean the Government thing has been bashed repeatedly.

Self-Governance what is it what does it entail?

So here let me ask you some very serious questions.

What is it that you propose with a government that would benefit everyone that the Lindens don’t already do with the tools that they provide us?

What benefit would it be for me to have someone else tell me what I can or cannot build?

What benefit would it be for me to have someone have power over me that is in essence my equal in the world.

What benefit would it be for me to have someone request that I pay taxes?(oh yes this would come soon after to “Pay “ those government officials.)

So who would skim off the top of that pot?

What benefit would it be for me to have someone propose that I have to submit this info or that info that is not contractually tied to LL.

What benefit would it be for me to have to succumb to a Neighborhood government when I was there first?

What benefit would it be for me to have to restrict my thinking and speech because a government decides it’s inappropriate?

What benefit would it be for me to have a player run government?

There are no tools to “Police” griefing actions so what would a government do for me to stop that.

There are no services I need from you or any of your associates as I have my own core group of friends that interact and provide me with the things I need or I create them myself.

So what benefit would it be to succumb to your government that I cannot already do on my own?

What services would a Government give me that I don’t already have through my own creations or core group of friends?

What protection would a government give me over fraud or abuse of anything I create?

What mitigation would a government offer in the face of a hostile dispute?
(With no enforcement tools in place I see nothing.)

What is your government gonna do start a social security fund so that some day I can retire from SL and draw income. <<Rolls eyes please!!

I’m sorry but this whole rant about a government means I have to submit my will to the masses.

Sorry I don’t work like that.
If you don’t like it get over it and I would say that to your face Real Life as well.

I don’t take kindly to being insulted and called a coward because I am strong in my opposition to stupidity.

Hell Real Life governments are only in place due to Commodities exchange and control of military forces.

What Military do we have in SL ..What cha gonna do shot me with a push gun come on. So no need to support that now is there.

So many things that you government people keep screaming and shouting we want a government.
But, why?
Please tell me that?
Please explain to me what benefit your government can do for me that I cannot do for myself with the tools currently presented.

I keep asking the same questions and you and your government friends keep saying the same thing that I have to submit and agree to your policies.

Sorry I already agreed to one policy that I actually pay cash for why should I agree to one that has NO benefit to me.

You know through Life study and believe me I have had plenty to study I have found 5 things that motivate people.

I’m going to iterate those 5 things as to why your government ploy in Second Life is doomed from jump street.

Time: people spend time in Second Life for many reasons some are for friends some are for creativity and some its because they are handicapped and this is a means to freedom from the confines of their bed/wheelchair/or crippled body. By proposing a government that would infringe on this you would be quelling the one shot to a momentary vision of real freedom that SL has to offer.

Education: Some people are not “Internet savvy” thus they come to second life to learn to socialize to interact all of which is a form of education. Learning to script is like learning a programming language. Learning to interact socially helps introverts thus educates them that socializing is not a demon to kill them. Learning to Draw and paint through a social net work of friends that work in PS or PSP9. Opens doors for people to learn to Create and Imagine that they otherwise would not have. What benefit would a Player run government have for them but to suppress them with added rules and mandates of conduct?

Adventure: This one Is simple…just the adventure of being able to fly from place to place or teleport like in star trek. So much more here to explain with adventure that its not even funny but still yet a Government would seek to quell this to organize and submit changes in behalf of the masses when it would merely be power hunger individuals wanting their way.

Money: That one speaks for its self with the volume of creative agents selling things in SL. On both sides of the spectrum from good and evil. So what would a government accomplish? Oh they would want to stamp out evil of course and in the process the greed would overcome the higher officials to summarily oppress the masses to achieve their financial status quo.

Service to Country: In real life many are proud or hate to serve their country meaning Military. What Military would we have who would we fight would we fight Worlds of Warcraft or Ultima On-Line? Militaries have to be supported to you know so a tax would have to be instituted especially with all these “Supposed low rates stipends” that would oppress the people even more.

Sorry Kathy I don’t see it. I don’t see the point of a Player Run government other than an attempt to oppress my associates and I that totally disagree with it.

So take your down your nose attitude, your condescending remarks, and your self indignatious power hungry I wannabe in power Government Buzzards and …

Well I will let you think what you will. But, know that many others and I will stand in your path glory.
Your attitude alone deserves to be stood against.

Sincerely, Shadow…The Ancient.

Ha ha! You're my hero. I've wanted to make a post like yours for months.

Unfortunately, in the end are we not college professors trying to convince a room full of junior-high students that there are more important things to do than goofing off? Of the most vociferous nay-sayers, I doubt any of them could even describe their country's governmental system off the top of their head. The best thing to do in my opinion is to educate and prepare people for change, while uniting those with talent to affect change.

~Ulrika~

Then my diatribe, dear Rose, isn’t meant for you. You aren’t in need of the smack in the head to get your attention. You apparently don’t need representation either. You speak well, have connections, and know how to use the forum effectively. You are not in need of representation. Though, I would make a case that you might be a good candidate to create or work with a group, and would make a good representative.

And I’d also ask, are you sure that your ability to represent yourself here in the forums is an accurate reflection to the Lindens and the rest of the world of what all the quiet people think?





Representation might very well cause things to get done faster. If the Lindens have only bug reports and the forums and a chat at the Welcome Center to work with, are they getting a good picture of how features – or their absence – affect the entire grid?

As for arbitration, we are only talking about voluntary arbitration. Once again, this model does not have – nor need – any “banning” or “enforcement” power. And it does NOT have the power to tell anyone who doesn’t want to participate what to do.

It is a way for those who aren’t represented in the forums or elsewhere to be heard.

Well, I think this model CAN be expressed off the top of the head.

The question is, will anyone bother to read it fully before attacking it.

True. If only there were a moderated version of this mess.

~Ulrika~

The Lindens ARE the government. The have all the power. They are NOT, however, able to represent all the players.

So, I propose that we provide the representation, and they provide the executive powers. We can represent, discuss, and propose. They can act.

You two are such a piece of arrogant, condescending works that it boggles my mind. Un fucking believeable.