Open Letter to So Many Anti-Government Whiners

The problem I see with such a system is that your voice in these decisions would only carry as much weight as your ability to be online to exercise it. Would the neighborhood groups have the ability to make rules concerning their neighborhood? If so, can you imagine someone logging in after being away for a month or two to find that the neighborhood has decided to change the rules and their build is now in violation? If it's all non-compulsary, what would be the point? The Lindens already (usually) announce proposed changes and solicit feedback in the forums and through town hall meetings and yet only a tiny percentage of people bother to avail themselves of these already existing communication channels. Is there a more efficient way to herd cats? We already have the ability and tools to band together to form communities of like-minded people. I feel that's sufficient and in two years no issue has been pressing enough to make me change my mind about it.

Lance,

You'll have to do something with this obsession about anuses.

I bring it up because you never let it be talked about. You, and others, have always attacked with "Do it and I'll leave."

So, yeah. I was a bit confrontational. Mostly because I'm done with letting people shout the concept down.

It needs to happen. Not for the loud ones. For the ones who aren't being represented by the loud ones.

And, since no one can avoid talking about me, let me REPEAT: I am NOT running for office here. Under my model, I am already in a group that will probably have enough people to field a representative. I don't know who they'll appoint, but it own't be me. And any national offices will be (I'm assuming) peopled out of the representatives. So, no chair for me. Are we done with that? Write it down. How about this?: "I hereby affirm that I will not seek any national office in any government in second life for the period of at least two years."

How's that?

Now can we talk about possible ways that representation CAN work?

If I could see a need for it, I'd be more inclined to be interested in government - as it is though I pretty much govern all the land I own and manage to have all questions/greivances I have communicated and answered to by the powers that be.

For me it aint broke - so theres no point in looking at fixing it.

There is a TOS. I abide by the terms of the TOS.

I don't whine about the Lindens (though I have bitched about a few bugs and suggested a few features).

Outside of the TOS, I refuse to allow anyone to police me on what I should put on my virtual land, how and what I should create, how and what I should say, how I should dress or any other thing that they think they should control that pertains what I want to do as an individual in Second Life.

I have no desire to run for SL office, listen to any political presentations by anyone running for SL political office or to vote for anyone running for SL political office.

I get enough of that in Real Life.

Govern away if that is what you wish to do. Just don't expect me to join in or abide by any laws not already stated in the TOS. Self Government appears to be your SL game, not mine. That said - if SL self government becomes inevitable and it appears that voted representatives have control over my SL behavior, I will tier down and leave SL. SL for me is a creative outlet and recreation, I can only hope it stays that way.

There will never be total, unanimous agreement on ANYTHING.

So..why have a government. LL is already doing this. If the government's purpose is just to add yet another long and tedious step to problem resolution, extending the time it takes till LL actually acts upon a report or complaint, I doubt very many citizens will be happy.




Local or national, a goverment with no power to enforce their rulings will utterly fail. If LL is going to be the power behind the player-government, then why add the extra step and have a goverment?



Power over even one person can corrupt another. Are we going to have detailed psychological write-ups on each person involved with a player-government?



Again, national or local, it makes no difference if you can't enforce your rulings. If I buy land in a neighborhood, and they tell me I can't build a house above 20m's high, and I say screw you and build one 100m's high, who could stop me besides LL? And if LL is the only one that can stop me, why do we need a player goverment? Why not just have LL make zoned sims. Someone making requirements of me won't have any power to make me follow those requirements.



So you are just adding a time delay to the process already in place. If LL has to review cases and take actions, it's the same as the present day abuse report system, just slowed down by player-police interference.



Again, no authority or penalizing rights, means no functional government. If LL has to be consulted for each enforcement case, then there is no need for the goverment in the first place.



You're most welcome

Because in Second Life, I have as much power on my land as any committee-wielding beareaucracy could possibly hope to have. So the Committee decided they want Grignano to fall under the whim of their governance. But wait! I refuse. And, being the largest land owner in Grignano (minus the lindens), my acreage counts for quite a bit. So what if you build death turrets and erect gigantic walls around my land? I can do the same to you, except twice as much. And twice as fast; remember, I'm one person acting in my own best interests, whereas a theoretical government (unless it's another sole dictatorship) needs to slog through at best a few people, at worst several groups of people.

Note that I'm not against player-run government, but in the current iteration of the software I don't see how it can even pretend it has the capibility of enforcing anything.

Your right to govern my existence stops where my property line begins. Sad to say, but it's true.



Because I don't have to Simple as that. Government only has teeth if it's recognized. If I refuse to recognize it, it falls apart like a house of cards. Short of handing out banning powers/suspension powers to these governments, there is nothing to stop a group of anarchists from stopping any government in its tracks.

LF

the model is for those neighborhoods that want local government to create it, run it according to TOS and CS and a few constitutional standards, and to send a representative - ANY representative - to the national meeting to tell us how things are going, what they need, to let us tell them how the rest of the world is doing and what they needs and what their issues are. This all goes to the Lindens, and then it STOPS being only those who are online a lot and can make themselves heard in the forums. There is nothing in the model that says HOW the neighborhood should be governed. And not even a requirement that your neighborhood BE governed – unless it wants to communicate with the national committee. You can go ahead and talk on the forums and send IMs to the Lindens… whatever suits you.

And, besides neighborhoods, there would be representation for Groups. This isn’t even geographical. And they – again – can decide whether they want to participate or not. The only compulsion here is that those groups and area that participate get represented. If not, you have to go it on your own. So, the compulsion to participate is directly proportional to the effectiveness of the process. If it works, people will participate. If it doesn’t then there’s no harm done.

And don't forget that in a RL government, those elected are accountable to the electorate. How can you hold people accountable for their actions when you can't even know who they are? Yet something else for LL to enforce.

And that doesn't even count the alt vote issue... If it's one credit card - one vote, either my husband or I lose our representation. And there is this woman here who I know has at least 8 credit cards with alts on all of them. There are ways to get around LL's tracking.

Kathy,
Are you Catherine Cotton's alt?

No.

This would automatically favor the issues of those that want to participate in government and effectively silence those that don't. We already have channels of communication available to each of us as individuals.

Darn!
There goes my theory of similar postings.

oh well.

Are you Hiro's alt?

Right. That's why you employ insults.

Ah. Here we have that weather-worn accusation again. Just because someone doesn't agree with you DOES NOT MEAN they didn't read what you wrote. It does not mean they are "whiners", have poor reading comprehension, or any other ad-hominem du jour. Take away the Left/Right slants and you almost sound like Korg.

Kathy, you and I have had a few go rounds over this issue and others, as you know. I am glad we were able to move past that. However, the thing I can't get past is your parental-like admonition of folks who dare to disagree with you. I am fairly sure you are in the same age range as me and frankly, I find your tone insulting at times.

For me, what it boils down to is this; if you want to play government have at it. No one will bat an eye. However, when you mock, belittle and label people because they refuse to play with you, you really do your own agenda a disservice, not to mention raise quite a few folk's hackles in the process.

I have to agree with Chip. Why is it that those who scream the loudest for government appear to be exactly the type of person who would should not be trusted with the institution of a government? Why do they choose to employ vinegar over honey? Why do they think they are wiser than everyone else? Why do they talk down to those who disagree? Why, if we who are resisting are just a bunch of loudmouths on the forums, and are not a viable representation of SL as a whole, do they feel so compelled to bemoan our viewpoints on this matter? Why do they try so hard to sway us? I think that perhaps there is a bit of disingenuous rhetoric being employed here.

Now on the assertion that there will be a player government whether we like it or not: If you really believe that, then why all the noise? Why the need for literary glove slapping of folks?

Robin has specifically stated that they have zero plans to make government a compulsory part of SL. I guess she is lying and/or you know more than she does.

And another thing. Let's say that, somehow, we figure out a way to get 100% of the SL population informed on the 'issues' of the day, and in fact, the population at large gets to come up with new 'issues' as they happen.

So what will this newly empowered government talk about?

Sex, money balls, stipend cuts, and lag. Maybe griefers.

Roughly in that order.

Most folks in SL are looking after themselves. Maybe a Significant Other of the Moment, but mostly for Number One. If you have 20,000 people clamoring for their most important issues, it will be for things that, while maybe impacting themselves in a positive way, will affect the world in a negative way. Most folks int he world, from my observation, use SL as a sexual device of some sort. Sex balls, skyboxes of doom, BDSM clubs, swinger clubs, XXX contests, escort services, blah blah blah.

So, eventually, someone will decide that making ALL sims in SL "mature" should be the Issue Du Jour.

Of course the majority decides it to be so.

But oh oh! There's a sizable minority that wants to keep the sims PG! Whatever shall we do?

Well, the minority will most likely be steamrolled over, just like they do now. And then SL becomes BDSM/Yiffing/Sexball haven. Whoops, there goes the sizable minority, off to greener pastures.

The minority will never have adequate protection from the majority, unless you draft up a ridiculous proposal of judicial oversight and legislative checks and balances and all that other hoohah.

But wait! The Lindens have the Final Say(tm)!

Well, thenw hy are we bothering with a government?

Why not just sign petitions instead?

Much easier.

Government is a needlessly complicated device to get things done in an environment like SL, except perhaps on the micro-local level. Even then, it's completely opt-in, and hence unenforcable.

LF

Kathy just because people don't want player government doesn't make them cowards or lazy. be nice. you sure aren't making player government sound attractive, especially in the paragraph that starts "Well forget it". that one sounds pretty threatening actually.

you might want to rethink how you word things.

What bothers the fuck outta me Nolan is this; the last time this issue resurrected I did an archive search for that post by Robin. I could find it nowhere ! I really wish she would stamp this out again and pray that Dan or whoever doesn't lose it when archiving again. Unless ... start conspiracy music .... the stance has changed.

not unless he had a sex change recently.

Maybe he's one of them penis cutter off'rs that Talen was speaking of ?

This won't hurt a bit, just grin and Bobbitt.