Live Performers (upfront fee)

And its still not about you. It's about venue owners discussing a viable plan to cover the costs of running venues. We are in the midst of setting up the Venue Live Performance Foundation to help us achieve that goal. Notice the first word is VENUE. And that is the focus here. Nothing we do effects a Live Artist's income - only our own. Please carry on with your shopping and do not worry about this thread ever again.

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Firstly, Lias, if you have a solution that's going to work, I am all for it. Don't get me wrong there. But you are the one turning this thread into a filibuster for your foundation (something I've never heard of outside this thread, who are the venue owners involved?). This thread is NOT about your foundation or "the change". This tread is about exactly what Michelle, Sound, Cher and the others are talking about. Let me refresh your memory. The title of the thread is:

Live Performers (upfront fee)

And the opening post was:


This thread was opened on October 28, 2008 and the last post before Michelle resurrected it had been on February 12 immediately after you and Morgan introduced the topic you are now claiming as the subject of this post.

And all we got from responses about that is "We did not force you to pay us". End of discussion from musicians. And then we moved onto solutions for the venues. The musicians want to continue to justify their fees and we are way past that in this thread. Allow this discussion to progress in a positive direction for venues and musicians. In February there was a challenge to work on solutions. A few of venue owners spent more money and got a website, set up a office and started working on this issue. And this thread was in a positive place. People tha thad never met got together and are working on the issues that negatively impact Venues. I just don't see any of the current threads as being neccessary.

MicelleD did drop by the Venue Live Performance Foundation and mentioned that if I bring in real advertisers (Seagrams, Pepsi, etc.) that an organization (BMI) would pounce on th entire SL music scene and charge every venue $600 USD a month even if the artists played their own music. If anyone has anymore information on this that would be helpful. But please - no more about how much you deserve your fees and we give it to you beause we want to. We are way beyond that now.

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Lias, having read through all of your posts in this thread and reviewed the Foundation's fee schedule which Morgan posted back in February and seeing your comment that you see a different live music scene (in response to being accused of shooting down several prominent representatives), I'm growing concerned that you may in fact NOT be the fan of the venue you purport to be. I've named the venues I represent, (Rocky Shores, Cascadia Harmonics and Moondance), some of the venues Cher represents (along with running SL Live Music Radio), and the venues represented in the conversation Cher referred to (Muse Isle and the Dublin and San Diego sims).

Who EXACTLY are the venues you are speaking for? You are very clearly not speaking for any of the venues I've just mentioned and that's a good percentage of the large, long standing live music venues in Second Life.

I am not forming a clique Ticious. I do not speak for venues. I believe they speak for themselves. Why do venues need someone to speak for them?

I do not know what your fan comment is about so I can't comment on it.

What is being developed (hopefully) is a alternative to the status quo. Yes, the venues you represent are quite comfortable with the arrangement they have with you and the circle of musicians that frequent their venues. This alternative will help venues with more shallow pockets to have more Live Music (without the Musician having to cut their income). I do not believe that this will effect the arrangement any of you currently have.

And yes, I see a very different Live Music scene than you do. And that should be ok. It is no threat to you.

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I asked Lias to tell me what venues he is speaking for. He answered me in im (and is still answering me in im). He repesents the VooDoo lounge and has never, in four years of operation, hired a live musician. In our conversation, he mentions no other venues that he speaks for.

Let me make very clear . . . yes, financing of venues is a subject near and dear to my heart, but Lias Leandros does not speak for Rocky Shores, Cascadia Harmonics or Moondance. He has never been to any of the three and outside this forum, I have never spoken to him or even heard of him.

Well this is a false account of our conversation. I said I do not 'represent' any venue. VooDoo Lounge is not a Live Music Venue - but my other two are and we have and continue to work with Live Musicians. Any venue involved with VLPF represents themselves. She asked for the Venue Live Performance Foundation information and I gave it to her (its available to everyone on page seven in this thread anyway).

Ticious did tell me to stop this thread because I was alienating her audience (whatever that means).

The little bizarre disclaimer is amusing. As I stated - the status quo people do not want to rock the boat. And Ticious will continue to pay the artist fees out of her own pocket and that is admirable.

But there are venues out there that cannot or will not pay these fees from RL income. I feel venues do alot just by having their doors open to the Live Musicians. We need to create a way to get a majority of these fees off the backs of these venue owners. And I hope by doing so we see some really exciting venues coming back to SL.

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I most certainly did not tell you to stop this thread (it would be silly to even imply that I had any such authority on a Linden sponsored forum!). I only asked you to name the venues you (and by extension the VLPF) are speaking for. You told me that if I was worried that you were alienating potential audience I should stop posting to this thread, but I said absolutely nothing about you posting or not posting. My only question was which live music venues are you speaking for.

You still have not named one and I cannot find any information telling me what venues are involved with the VLPF or how they benefit from their involvement. Your "business plan" is nothing more than a promo blurb and price list. A business plan (this ties into my rl occupation of business analyst) would include the results of test market surveys. I did notice that the charge per live event is the same L$5k musicians are talking about in this thread.

Okay. You want to talk about the VLPF. So I put a kiosk on the stage advertising some business with a direct teleport to that business, that business pays the fee, the musician gets 80% (L4k per hour), the venues gets 10% (L500 per hour) and VLPF gets 10% (L500 per hour). You've just paid my host's salary. Btw, I don't present a couple hours a month, I present 18 hours a week.

Do you have any real life or second life businesses interested? This path has been explored by several others and they couldn't interest advertisers for a fraction of that fee at a time when audiences were close to double what they are now.

Well, again, proceed with your plan, and let us know.

I have had sponsors pay a musicians fee and support an event in exchange for:

. Signage during the event
. They donated prizes
. Their name was mentioned as a sponsor during the event

This works. Go for it.

Do any of us take a cut from the musicians? NO.

Are we constantly thinking of ideas to SUPPORT Live Music? YES.

So let us all know how YOUR plan works for YOU.

You're confusing me with someone else who is alienated....I have not commented before.....but I can see how you would get all those people confused.



I go to live events. I talk to people. That's where I get my definition. As I'm standing in the middle of the crowd....watching 40 or 50 people get energized by the musician and their music....you don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure out that yeah....it's pretty much about the artist. If you pull the artist out....your venue is going to clear within 3 minutes.

You're visualizing your venue and live music without the artist?




I have no idea what you are talking about concerning a blacklist. Suggesting that you might hang out at some live events and get to know the consumers....is hardly a threat.

In addition....some of those business owners that regularly attend live events are Venue Owners.....would be a great opportunity for you to mingle and make connections.....but hopefully in a more relaxed and approachable style than the one you use here.....I doubt that they would want to enter into a one-sided debate while listening to their favorite musician.

As far as Audacity....if suggesting to you "who" your consumer is.....is too bold......pardon me. Maybe you'll be just fine leaving that particular aspect out. Probably not.

Hi everyone.

Just popping in with my 2 cents
I just browse through this topic and respond to certain things i see.

This discussion is like all discussions on music and money going out of direction.
The original topic was if their was a market to pay 3 K or more for music.

The answer is simple : Yes.

If venues want to pay that, and i dont care if they can or cant afford that, then their is a market.
If they cant afford that then it is their own fault if they get in trouble at the end of the month.
If i have a certain income i can not spend more, simple as that.
It is all about ask and recieve, free market etc.etc.etc.
If noone pays the 5K then artists have to lower their fee.

The problem with rating musicians as Eric suggested is who sets the standard ?
The 20-30 fans that follow that crappy singer who is worth only 1 buck ?
The venue who has to pay ?
The musicians ?
Is someone who has done more then 1000 gigs more worth
then someone who has done only 100 ?
Is a cover artist more worth then an original ?
Are we going to count how many notes they play in a second ?

I see new artists coming in and asking 5 k to start with, are they worth it ?
not in my book, this has nothing to do with not being good.
I think new artists should perform first, play 6 months and then ask a fee.
offcourse it all depends on the artist, but i speak in general.

I agree with TAJ.
i manage a certain musician ( dont worry i dont get payed )
My first question is if they have heard the musician,
if not then i point them to his 61 page, once they listened they can book him.
I notice a lot of venues dont even know what kind of music they book,
talking about a fee seems out of place then.

So according to Lias the sole supporter is the venue owner ?
What about the fans ? they cough up your tips ?

As stated before this is not RL.
In RL you might go to your local bar or club and see what is going on.
you spend your money and a lot of times you dont even know who is playing.
On SL, fans follow the acts they love and dont care where they end up.
They dont follow the venue, they follow the artists.



Your doing your math wrong
i assume you mean the musician get 5 k on tips, but that is not your buisness.
Nor is it their buisness what you get on tips.

so you pay 5 K and get 2 K back, that means you pay a fee of 3 K witch you loose.
assuming you get about 500 lindens on tips ( witch i dont see mentioned ) you loose 2500.
Why not do this, pay 5000, ask 2500 back and both you and the musician loose 2500
Not a win-win but it seems fair ?

Numbers can be explained in different ways

Awhh the plan on page 7
So if i understand it correctly the artist gets 4 K
the venue 500 and the VLPF 500

An artist would loose 1K according to the standard fee so thats not that bad,
the venue still gets 500 and according to venue owners in this topic this is what they get now
on an average basis.
tips are being split, witch sounds fair but :

Do venues have a choise in what artists they get ?
Can artists say where they want to play ?
Who pays the stream ?
What if you get tipped directly instead of the tipjar ?
What if you never use a tipjar ?

Awhhh my blog is in here LOL
I see it is being read very good.



This topic on my blog had nothing to do with sharing income,
and i am certainly not a musician on SL.

Thanks Ticious for clearing that out

I am a supporter on Music and everything that is involved.
Thats why i started those topics, to see if we can do something.
But the problem is that you have to name things as they are,
and with that you got yourself a problem.
I talk the same about musicians as well, i call it as i see it.
There are going to be a lot more posts on my blog about things like this,



again, read what is being said.
Soundcircel doesnt asks a fee and he doesnt has a tipjar,
and he didnt talked about blacklistening.

If there is someone out there who deserves a huge fee it would be him
But yet he refuses.....

as someone who hires musicians and also works to pay tier on islands...here is my two cents.

i ask a musician their fees and if i can pay it and i like them, then i do. but the ones with higher fees, i expect will bring a following of fans who will then be exposed to my sims, buy from the various shop keepers, possibly rent a shop or apt, explore, learn from the educational exhibits, etc. i dont expect to earn money or recoup money from the musician fees directly at the time of the event. the exposure to new folks who come to my sims is what im looking for and that is the purpose of bringing live music in. we never ask for tips for the venue...we only recommend folks tip the musician, and we tell the performers that. they usually are happy and in some cases will work only for tips since we have no hosts or venue that is taking away any potential tips from them.

once i had a group who professed to be well known in rl approach me about playing on our sims. they wanted 25K L to perform which was wayyyy out of my budget. when i told them this...not only did they not offer to reduce their fees...they continued to try to sell me on the idea that they were going to bring us so much exposure....while in fact they had been in sl a very short time, had a small fan group and really could not bring any measurable benefit to us based on past performance.

on the flip side...ive had some very well known sl performers who bring very large crowds offer to play for tips only because they know we are educational sims and our policy on tips for hosts etc.

it seem to me that both sides should be prepared to make this work and to not expect to make money. musicians should be prepared to play because they love it and it can bring them rl exposure and venues should be prepared to pay tier without profiting from the live music...again working only for the exposure.

i really think any other model in sl is doomed to failure. if people really do something simply because they love it...then let that be the reward...whether that is the musician or the venue.

YES Jojo!

Voodoo has business plans with the djs, many schools of training, now with the musicians, and this group.

It is a for-profit consortium.

The rest of us do what we do, whatever it is, however we do it, because we enjoy it, in the way that suits us best

Well as I said - you all that enjoy the status quo please do continue to enjoy it. Those of us that do not will continue to encourage change.

And anybody else is encouraged to create a system that allows the venue to earn from their live events also. It is only fair and it is common sense.

I have someone looking into the BMI fees for venues that Michelle spoke of when she dropped by. At least some helpful imformation came out of this exchange. And we continue to move forward.

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The BMI issue has been expored by several avenues in various blogs and forums. The consensus generally is that no one really knows whether SL venues or musicians will be subject to BMI fees or not and if some one is subject who it will be. At some point in time, this is likely to be played out in court. Some folks think LL should pay BMI fees . . . the only one I am certain will NOT be paying BMI fees is LL. This issue is quite complicated . . . Who "owns" the location when it's virtual? Who controls the stream? What country are they in? Who are the "they" that matters here? The listener? The venue? The musician?

It's a good topic, but not a new one and if you've been working on this at least since February, I find it surprising that it hasn't occurred to you before as this could have significant impact on your business plan.

It also should be noted that, just because everyone's not jumping on the current "solution" which you're offering does not mean that they are satisified with the status quo. Other people have other answers. But our answers may or may not be the same as yours. There's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. It's very hard for us (at least for me) to be on board with your solution when you give us so little information regarding it.

Do you have any sponsors lined up (my question) and would a member venue be required to stage the musicians you say at the times you say and would member musicians only be allowed to play at member venues (rewording of HomeLess's questions)?

Good to hear something pertinent to the venue. And your right, we need to follow the current litigation and try to stay within the lines when it comes to this sensitive area. We have someone exploring this angle thoroughly now.

I do not expect anyone so vigorously defending the status quo has any intention of being involved with change. And that is to be expected. Selling tickets and selling clothes do not seem to be the answer. Splitting the tip jar does not come close to addressing the issue. So why are these the only 'solutions' re-hashed here? Allow us move forward please.

You have decided that I represent a for-profit group. And if that makes you feel better - then go for it. Venue owners have been a non-profit group since Linden Lab stopped the traffic payments in 2006. And again, change of any kind is not something those you that enjoy paying musicians out of your pocket will ever go for.

Yes, I have some RL Sponsors lined up - but as I told MichelleD I have not arranged SL sponsors as of yet because I feel that bringing in the RL Corporations first woud be more effective. Once the website launches the sponsor's logos will be posted there.

The times will not be dictated by the sponsor. Venues and the Musicians knwo the best SL times to perform. And it should stay that way.

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Cher are you agreeing with Jojogirl that the Musicians should not charge? Or are you just cheerleading for no apparent reason?

Venues are so used to NOT making money. So Cher's warning that the Venue Live Performance Foundation Venue members have an intention of actually making a profit sounds scary. Happily no venue owner responded the same way when Michelle and other Live Musicians announced they make a profit from Venues.

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I know this by experience concerning BMI and ASCAP

Private house concerts having musicians play their original music, IN RL, are being closed down all over the United States because BMI and ASCAP are asking these private citizens, who hold house concerts of all original music, to pay dues. You can probably find out some of the information at http://www.folk.org It's Folk Alliance. A resource to help musicians. So if they are going into private homes, then they would not hesitate to to enter into a public and very populated music scene in SL.
The musician does not come out ahead on BMI coming in. As an artist, I am a member of BMI and I still don't get paid from the "out don't know how many times," our songs have been played on radio. Which is a lot in NPR and folk stations.
If they came in.. Live music as we know it, unless you could afford BMI costs, would shut down or come to a screeching halt.

I think the sponsorship foundation to help venues would be a great way to help support the venues, but the negativity toward the amount of money the musicians make, will not help the situation and will repel some musicians from wanting to support it.

I gave 4K last night toward the foundation and I didn't even get a Thank You. Some Comradery might need to be practice here.

Cher I find it odd that you do not feel a venue should make a profit along with the Musician from a live event. I think you all are conditioned to donate to these performers without developing a sustainable business model in the long run. If that works for you that is great. But there are many residents (patrons, venue owners, performers) that feel that this just does not make any sense.

We are moving toward a business model that makes sense and makes money for both parties.

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Fair enough.

Will member venues have the choice of who they put on their stage or will they be required to use member musicians and will member musicians have the choice of which venues to play at or will they be required to play at member venues?

I want to pursue two tracks. Advertisers can log into their account on the website and choose to partially sponsor these shows that are already booked. This way the venue can cover some of the fees they pay the musician or even make a profit from the sponsor money coming in.

The second Track will be for the Venue to log in and choose to take on a sponsored performance in search of a venue. These are Artists that are pre-paid by the sponsor. Once the Venue signs on they get paid a fee from the sponsorship money pool.

We will also have the NEW ARTIST STAGE on the website.
This will be a good way for new artists coming into the Live Music Scene to get themselves booked in a venue. These artists will work for tips as long as they list themselves in this section.

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I allready i am sorry i stated my vieuw.
Seems that some venue owners ( and i love most of them ) can say anything
but once we say something then owhh boy !!!!

Last thing i need is "someone" IMing me with what i am going on about
whatever the fuck that means.
I dont know you, i dont want to know you and i dont want your IM

After i lost my equipment last year i was finally lost of drama and weird people
and crazy stuff. i didnt even was on SL anymore,
i was offline for about 8 months trying to get my studio build up.

Homeless and Roni brought me back, witch i am thankfull for.
He got me a new guitar, a new computer and other stuff.
My guess is he spended about 3-4 K ( dollars that is ) maybe even more
Other musicians donated some things as well, hugs to all of them.

I dont ask a fee, i dont need your money, i dont want your money.
Noone else but musicians and a guy that didnt knew me at all ( homeless )
gave me stuff, makes you think about the greedy musicians right ?

All this stuff makes me really think if i should keep on playing music on SL.
I just want to play my music.

/me wonders why he even replied to this ?

sorry you misunderstood my post...i am not saying musicians should not charge. what i said was that i dont think in SL either the musicians OR the venue should expect to make a profit. to me, that is a different solution than the ones you are offering btw.

too many people come into sl and expect to profit...either to keep their sims open, allow them some extra pin money in rl, etc. while that is laudable...it really isnt realistic when the "product" is something intangible like the sound of music.

i really have no agenda in this but find the discussion interesting...ads for outside RL sponsors...so far in sl the ROI for RL companies has been dismal so i would be interested to hear how you are marketing this to RL folks. bottom line for RL is "what's in it for me" and tbh, i dont see any successes in that arena within sl to date.

so what would be the return for RL sponsors to invest their RL money to help venues stay afloat? without some cold hard BIG numbers of folks who will see their info and then take some action, im not sure how this will play in peoria.

They like the idea of a network of advertising kiosks and the fact that the whole thing happens from a website - they do not have to actually log into Second Life to make this happen for them. They are even offering RL T-shirts and products for those that want to click on a prim in SL. There will be slurls to the Live events on the website so folks interested can teleport straight there. I am working with scriptors to find a way to show the ad exec his venue traffic from the website.

I believe it's all in the packaging of the product. Seagrams happily comes to my gallery events and only have 100 people at a opening event. But I write a good proposal. This is 'street team' money to these companies. I realy do see it becoming a very effective way to bridge the virtual venue with the advertisers and to bring in new patrons.

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Still we havent answers for the questions that we have ?



??????



??????

All valid questions that you refuse to answer so far,
and personally i would like to know why you IM people on SL
about what they are going on about ?
I can understand it if you have a normal question to people and want to talk
but this seems something like "how dare you" ???

And some new questions :

* What if venues want to book outside your group ?
* what if artists wants to play in a venue that isnt part of your group ?