Live Performers (upfront fee)

Hey guys,

I've been on SL for almost a year, i've recently started a live music venue with a friend. I am the music director of this venue. I've been scouting for musicians to play at our club. In RL I am an audio engineer and very active in the rl music scene. Since scouting for musicians i've come across a lot of musicians who want 5000 lindens or more an hour to play. Now I am fairly good at seeing good musicians. Most of the people in SL who perform are not worth 35 USD an hour. Yet clubs in sl pay them for it. I've even seen people who just started SL and are charging 3000 lindens. In the Real world, if an untested musician comes to a Venue and asks for 3000 dollars to walk into the door. Well, They won't be walking into the door.

Now, I have noticed the musicians in rl who have an active music career, Don't charge a massive upfront fee. I think thats because they know they'll make a good amount in tips, and they are not dependent on SL income for rl things.......

As a rl engineer and 6 years in the financial markets, I really don't see a market reason to pay musicians 3000 lindens and hour to do covers. The Economics are just not there....

Well 5000L is about $20 USD

And in my opinion most are worth it. Especially the ones that play guitar and sing well. Most I have ran across do sing their own songs as well as covers. Covers are for the general audience, everyone like to hear their favorites.

Venues/Clubs don't generally make money, so I hope you did it for the love of music and not to make it big.

The more expensive ones also come with groupies so it gives you exposure to your venue.

Good Luck!
JL

As JL has already said..... 5000L$ is around 20 dollars US.... In the real world, no musician I know, good or bad...would even breathe for that amount of money...anyway, it's all relative I suppose and you have to 'scale' it down when you're talking 'SL' performing.

Gigging in RL is my job...that's how I support my son and myself... if someone offered me '20$' for an hour's performance...I'd probably suggest they see a 'shrink'.... BUT....in SL, that's roughly around the middle of the scale as far as fees go.

In RL...I'm a singer.... I don't pretend to be a writer, or a poet etc... I'm just a singer but nonetheless a musician.. I gig in SL using tracks... because I don't play an instrument to the standard that I would be comfortable with...doesn't mean I'm not a musician. I've been to some other SL performances...some of them were good, some of them were bad...just as in RL....but they are still real people, giving up an hour of their time....to do a gig....with the same 'effort' that they would put into a real life one. It's not an easy job in RL, it never was but the good ones make it look easy. I know that when I do an SL gig... I put as much effort into it as I do in my real life ones.... only difference is that I probably wouldn't wear my pyjamas in the RL one...

www.myspace.com/pocketpfeffer

I have been involved in the live music scene for over a year now as a booking agent for a few venues and when it comes to the fees for musicians charge, I think they are being UNDER PAID. As the other post stated, if you walked up to a RL performer and offered $20 USD to play for an hour, you would get laughed at.

Most of the musicians I have worked with have been very professional and even though I don't do much in the music scene anymore, they remain some of my closest friends.

My opinion: Don't be cheap. If they want L$5,000 for an hour, give them L$6,000. Most likely they will bring new people to your venue that might come back even when they aren't playing. Plus you will get one heck of a show and they will be more likely to stay in touch and play again when you want to bring them back.

I have been running the JSP Island with several LIVE Music venues for over 1 year now. The first 9 months i had a booking budget of L$60K/week (Artist and Staff fees). I teamed up with MNP, a LIVE music promotions group, in January 2008. During my 8 months as co-owner in that group i met alot of different artists and venue owners.

New Venues comes and goes, however the oldest 1s in here, as i know of, don't have to pay an artist fee at all. Most of the old 1s has run out of cash, they can only promote their venue as a Tips Only Venue. Practically this means they can run several shows throughout the week and get loads of tips in their Venue's tip jar.

Now, if all LIVE music venues over the grid started with this affordable biz model, what would happen? Some artist would most definatly leave SL or start their own Venues. Yes, i know of several artists that already has their own Venues and i think this will grow much more.

I fully agree with Rocky M, the artists are being UNDER PAID! With that said i always try to book acts with a following crowd: Maximillion Kleene, Ayden Kruh, Jase Branner is 3 of those famous SL artists that can pack a venue. But sadly, SL is crowded with artists that not even would have a chance in the first round of American Idol, or any similar contest.

I still have faith in this platform as a complement to a RL career in LIVE music and will continue to seek out different biz models for artists to get paid a good amount of L$.

lol, Totally don't understand my point........I am all for the musicians. I am one myself...So your gonna pay musicians 6000 lindens to play at your venue when you may only make 2500 a night in tips? Thats simple math. At some point thats going to catch up and you'll end up closing the venue......Another Example, You pay a musician 5000 lindens they bring 10 people to your sim....Now how does that exactly help your venue? You pay that person 5000 lindens to come and play and they only bring 10 people to your venue.....

I've heard a lot of musicians in SL, Max has a good following but the dude plays cover tunes. 10000 lindens is way high to play just cover tunes...

If musicians want to charge a huge fee like that, They need to bring credentials and proof that they'll give me a good return on my investment...

The Economics are not there to pay these people that amount of money. And Yes, If you walk into a venue in rl and ask for 50 dollars and hour, Have no credentials or proof of your skills. You'll be laughed out the door.....

Now if your a rl musician that brings rl fans into SL to follow you. You have a CD and play originals....That to me is something to consider...........

Ya'll can continue to pay those huge fees out and never make a profit...There will only be one standing venue at the end though.....I say that from 6 years professional full time trading experience and 10 years in the music industry. IN REAL LIFE.....

"Now, if all LIVE music venues over the grid started with this affordable biz model, what would happen? Some artist would most definatly leave SL or start their own Venues. Yes, i know of several artists that already has their own Venues and i think this will grow much more."

ok, So basically they are willing to pay out 100 USD or more a month to open their own venue to play, Because they get mad that venues won't pay them a fee. That to me is the beginning of the end for there music. Because they won't have that upfront fee anymore that they opened their own SL venue. They will pay out 100 USD or more for land. Plus 100 bucks a month for a stream. Then the costs of building the venue....They are going to sustain all that with just tips.......They will end up playing 5 days a week. They will burn their music out and then people will start going to other venues to hear fresh music........

That to me is an action of Greed, I know how that works from working in the financial markets for so long....Actions of greed get nothing but a losing result.........

Really, it's not a question of cheap. If I paid $L6000 for all the acts at my venues, my sim would have been gone a long, long time ago. New people coming to my venue doesn't do me any good if I can't afford to keep the venue open.

I've been running live music venues (Rocky Shores, Cascadia Harmonics) in SL for nearly two years and I love it, so I keep doing it. But L$3000 is a good NIGHT in tips (that's a three hour show), my host gets L$1000 and I tip each musician L$500, which about twice an average good tip from a fan to a musician (total L$1500 per night). Sooooo, do the math. That leaves me L$500 to cover tier and stream on a good night. Lotsa nights cost me $L500 or more out of pocket before I take tier and stream fees into account. So unless I have some highly profitable side business going on to bring in the other L$15,000 for the three hour show (and I don't know of many SL businesses that bring in that kinda dough in three hours), my venues would have been loooong gone a looooong time ago.

Until the fans are willing to pay to hear the music, the economy just isn't there for musicians, even first rate musicians, to expect to make as much in SL as they would in RL. Plain, pure financial reality for the virtual world.

Sadly, I've never had a chance to win American Idol. And I think that's just so UNFAIR and stuff. I support whatever dream this or that venue, promoter, or performer is pursuing in SL. But baby (and I use that term in the most show biz kinda way I can mustard up), don't imagine your dream is the one and truesomely. I can tell you from the perspective of sometime venue operator, occasional promoter, and as a performer what *sob* never had a prayer of being on American Idol, that I love what I does, and do what I do, as I feel like doin as I make my ways through this crazy werld what we have come to known as SL cause thats short for Second Life. And ya know what? Yes - you. The one with the fancy trowelzers - I wouldn't live *my* SL anyotherelese's way.

One final note to you "pros" out there. Tossing about performer's fees in an open forum is so, you know... without class. It takes a lot more that fancy trowelzers to be a pro. *hair toss*

My advice, and I have some modest experience I carried in here with me, is chill - relax - the sharks in the music biz in RL were losers. What they clawed to get is gone. It's a new era. Above all - be good to one another's.

That's a excellent idea. So let's set a standard, a common fee a performer in SL is worth!

Most of the performers you see touring SL is most def not worth the L$ thrown their way. In RL you see them at street corners or in kareoke bars, i would say their worth is around $1 (L$260) at the best. If all venue owners over the grid used this standard fee it would open up a interest from RL pro's to enter SL.

These pro artist gig's would be promoted as ticketed events (L$8K - L$50K/Event), based on the skills and reputation in RL.

At the same time, the artist in question would be doing this gig with a selected audience (RL), somewhere in the world.

There's alot of details to add to this biz model. However, there's folks in SL (Club Pro's) testing different sorts of successful ideas, so there's hope for a bright future!

I got involved with a club environment a while back and we tried the live act attack. Unfortunately, most of the performers were as new to SL as we and none of them had demos or the ability to provide a live audition. Regardless of the possibility of fees asked, there was no way that we would stage an act with a) no demo, b) no audition, or c) no prior history and real referrals. Generally, because of the way things could sometimes hiccup in SL, we preferred a demo "tape" and referrals, but even those were tough to come by.

Since then (I'm just a freebie, roving ghost now), I've been to a lot of not-so-good performances or sets that didn't match the venue (pop, ballads, and emo at a rock or dance club - yech ...) and when I've pinged the host about the gig, I was told it was a tips-only gig and they really hadn't heard the performer(s) before the gig. Tips-only may be a popular way to play this, but the fact is that if you (the club owner) stage enough low-quality or mismatched artists, you'll eventually lose your patrons.

Tips to artists (sorry if I'm stating the obvious) -

If you don't have a demo, make one. At least 3 songs - one fast, one slow, one odd - that define your genre.

Garner references - maybe you need to work a few freebies to start getting the word out.

Be prepared to provide an audition, have your gear ready and your chops warmed up before the audition starts.

Finally, make sure your style fits the venue's draw. It doesn't make sense for a balladeer to audition for a disco club.

Tip to club owners - ask for at least 2 of those first three and don't bore your dance patrons with emo or ballads!

FWIW...

TAJ

I'm not sure anyone, even Anshe Chung, is making the kind of income someone doing a comparable job in RL would be making.

I'm certainly not making a decent contract programmer wage, that's for sure. I don't even try to... if I asked for L$20,000 an hour for scripting in SL I'd still be asking... and that's pretty cheap for custom programming.

SL is a microcosm of the RL economy, with the emphasis on "micro".

Well, from the performers' POV: I've been doing live shows in SL for over 2 years and I've given up on the so-called gig circuit. In my experience venue owners are too tight-fisted to pay anything to make it worth my bother to break a sweat let alone tip. That and to this day still being talked to as if I'm some sort of day-old noob. Hey, I've been playing in time and in tune for over 40 years *and* writing and recording my own material.

Sseeing how I'm not going to be paid or taken seriously I decided to build my own venue and hoist a hefty two-fingers to the so-called music scene in SL. So, ner.

"100 bucks a month for a stream"

your getting ripped!

128ks 100 listener 99.9% up time from 900-4000L a month!
I have 3 2 at 900 a month not one issue 2 months and one at 2000 a month no issues in a year prior for almost 2 years a L4000 a month that was extremely nice but offered less than the others in web access control panel etc.
'

I play for tips I do it because I have fun, I normally drink and get pretty plowed too (preferring the late night open mics.) I do do regular shows, I know I am no singer.. but I like to sing and it seems as much as I get asked to play some others do as well, I would think my tips show that as well. I have played Guitar for almost 30 years and never tried singing and playing acoustic (I am a lead guitarist that plays with electronic bands) well SL gives me the chance to do it. If I wanted I could take all my bands tracks 3 CDs full of music and play my guitar live only, and could ask for 10000+ for an hour. but why? what fun is that? we have even talked about trying to do it live some how but its just not that feasible,\\ maybe someday, but for now I like the stuff I and others are doing from the camp fire type open mics to the full out 3 hour showcases at Rocky Shores, and the great shows done out on Menorca Slims place.

seems to me there's room for everyone and the different taste out there heck we even have many VIOP Karaoke bars now that's fun too! (or at least entertaining they can be full sims during those!)

I think your not looking at the big picture.

in the Real World my all Original band gets 200USD for 45-2 hour show! (5 people ) but we can sell merch. and the bar/club/venue makes door and sells booze!
in the Real World me on acoustic and the vocalist singing COVERS (hotel/resort lounge bar fare...) we get 1000-3000 for 2 -3 1-2 hour sets.

by using this model you should be paying the cover artist tons more yet.

there is no way to use RL cost/fees and make them work in SL .. not now.

and there are people doing live feeds from bars/clubs with RL audiences and SL audiences now they seem to go over well! how has the money come out? I don't know. but its a step in that direction, and I think its pretty cool the RL patrons are seeing the streaming SL patrons

Right on Nad!
"My advice, and I have some modest experience I carried in here with me, is chill - relax - the sharks in the music biz in RL were losers. What they clawed to get is gone. It's a new era. Above all - be good to one another's."

THIS IS NOT RL THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT AND IF THEY COULD MAKE IT IN RL THEY WOULD NOT BE HERE IN SL, SL IS A GAME .

You are so right JP and I am not paying that anymore at my venues. If they want to charge these crazy prices for again a virtual world , then they are splitting the tips at least . times are just too tough and so many clubs are closing up here. no they would not be asked to play for 20.00 in RL of course, but again this is NOT RL. 20 USD is alot of money to some , geez guys now your being greedy in SL too, give venues a break or you all will eventually not have gigs , you will see. you all should be splitting the damm tips anyway.

No-one in SL has any qualms about paying top-drawer prices for your sexgen toys, overpriced dream houses, private islands, clothes, shoes, what-have-you yet when it comes to paying a performing musician a decent rate for their efforts suddenly the story changes. I've had it up to my back teeth with venue owners who will pay more for their asinine bling shoes than what they offer me for my time and effort. What the f*ck do they take me for? An idiot? A fraud?

Quite frankly, the way I've seen most venue owner-operators behave in SL they'll go no further than hosting the musical equivalent of prim-dick n00bs. You want quality? Well pay for it. That said don't pander to greed. Set a fair price. A musician's work is no less valuable than that of a scripter, builder or texture artist and should be renumerated in a similar range.

I question how much you understand about economics if you think you have any hope of of even coming close to breaking even running a club. Did you even talk to any of the long-time venue owners? They do it for the love of the music and the social aspect.
I agree with what Nad said about you tossing around Max's name and fee. Very tasteless. And yeah... Max plays covers and ton's of people love him. They love hearing the songs, they love his personality, and they love interacting with the other folks at the show.
So I don't know what to tell you... go find a musician that plays only origionals, is willing to work for tips only, and has no following. Enjoy standing there with 3 other people watching the show and knowing that you're not overpaying an artist by giving them 40 bucks. LOL.

As I said in the other thread on this subject: The sole supporter of Live Musicians in Second Life is Venue Owners. Would any venue in real life make itself available to performers if it paid the musicians any amount they wanted and made no money back to pay rent or staffing costs? Of course not.

Live Musicians: Don't be so short-sighted. You realize clubs make no money and the club owner has tier to pay and staffing. A collaborative effort between venues and performers would keep the music flowing 'freely' across the grid. Gouging your biggest supporter is not the answer. Develop a foundation and get corporate dollars to cover the cost of performances. Then when you set up the tip jar make sure half the tips automatically get paid to the venue.

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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Royalties. There are laws about paying them, you know. All live musicians who aren't performing their own originals are required to pay them. By law. As also are DJ's.

If live musicians or DJ's have to pay those royalties out of their own pockets, the club had better pay them enough to cover that expense. It would also be the decent thing to do, to cover the amount of time required just to track the information and determine how much they actually have to pay.

How many of you have thought about that side of the coin? Thoughts and comments about that problem are of course welcome.

I have only booked artists singing original work. That is why SL was a a platform for talent to sell their original mp3s or get exposure.

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I think this is an age-old argument that I couldn't even begin to sort out, but I'm posting for another reason. I find it appalling, JP, that you would single out an artist specifically AND name his fee in open forum.

Of all the artists you chose to single out, you chose one that in my experience does what he can to support venue owners and at the same time support himself. Max is also incredibly supportive of helping new and upcoming musicians build audiences. He regularly dual streams with other artists even though he doesn't even get the benefit of hearing himself and the other artist together until AFTER the show. In addition Max NEVER brings just 10 people to a show -- it's laughable to even suggest that number with Max. His group numbers over 1300 members, and I can't remember a time the sim hasn't been filled for his shows, or that he's attracted a crowd less than 40, and he ALWAYS repeatedly asks his audience to tip the venue.

And incidentally, I have no interest in hearing an entire show of originals, or even a show of half originals and half covers. I can't sing along to originals, and the majority of "original songs" in SL are less than stellar anyway. Max is an incredibly gifted guitarist and performer with excellent sound. I often prefer Max's covers to the original versions of the songs themselves.

Bottom line, make your argument, fine. But leave the personal attacks out of the forums, please.

Its sad you titled your thread "Venue owners VS musicians. If the musicians did not see us as a income for them and not a partner in maming the music available to Sl then we would not be having this discussion. His fee and the fact that he 'asks' people to tip the hoiuse (instead of having one split tip jar out) shows that the artist is only thinking of his own money making opportunities.And when that venue closes down because they can nolonger aford to pay those fees and give away all of the money a live performance generates - he will move on to the next venue.

We need to find a solution to this problem.

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Yes Sadae....of course this isn't Rl....I understand that completely....BUT...I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on the whole 'if they could make it in RL they wouldn't be in SL' type thing.. I gig almost every night of the week in RL...yet I still like to do a few gigs in SL too.... just because it's that little bit 'different'.. There are some very talented musicians here in SL that are also quite successful in RL too.... I think it's when we equate the scale of SL pay to RL pay....it's never going to match up really.

One last thing... SL is about as much of a 'game' as RL is.....it's all about how you want to play it...

What I see as a major problem here is that SL is not suited for medium to large scale events yet, it isn't ready. Just a matter of patience for those working hard on alternatives and LL introducing major upgrades in the incremental steps.

But the statement that SL pay would never equate or reach beyond RL pay is the most ridicolous thing I have ever heard in my life! Consider the current state of RL corporations trying to take a large piece of pie of the salary of the artist, as well as managing to kill off many other artists via this cut-throat approach, compared to the incredible independance and distribution options offered by this new step into the extension of the web, which is still very young and far from maturity.