Live Performers (upfront fee)

You are really deluded if you think a tips-only model works for venues. The only way that works is if the musician goes tips-only too. Until a fundamental shift comes about in the population about paying to see SL musicians, the situation will remain the same, with fly-by-night clubs being replaced by other fly-by-night clubs who eventually go away due to the costs. Some musicians aren't going to care about that because they can work the system. Until more venue owners demand tip-sharing or some other arrangement for the fee, the practice will go on, and venue owners will be the money losers. As has been said before, it's a free market. Some people will pay, some won't. Don't pay any more than you're prepared to pay. If a musician, however, finds that they're not getting as much work, well, there is a clue.

You really think these people don't already own homes or whole sims? Understand SL much?

I've known Joyous a long time and have booked artists through her, and she doesn't take a dime, is at every show, greeting, working hard. Her musicians are as awesome, talented and professional as she is.

Agreed.

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thank you Cher.

Lias - you think not mentioning the name is your "out" for what you are perpetuating?
You repeatedly make reference to a particular fee. And in referencing that fee you refer to the musicians that charge it as thieves or bilkers of some sort.
Bottom line is this - you obviously covet the kind of traffic they can bring. For that there is a fee. You can choose to pay the fee or not. Continually slamming people that have worked long and hard to earn that value, who are reliable and consistent and put themselves into every performance - and have developed relationships with the fanbase that follows them because of their genuine nature and goodheartedness - is pointless and tasteless.

You do not know me. I care not to know you. I am responding only to the continual bashing of someone I hold dear. I will be more than happy to not comment if you will cease your bullshit. Come up with something else - how bout a plan? or a clue.

Okay time to stop feeding the trolls. Putting this thread on ignore.

Joy, I honestly have no idea what your going on about. I entered the thread and agreed that the musicians charge too much. This is a grid-wide issue and not the fault of one artist. Please chill out.


One hour of mass lag is not traffic Joy. Traffic is not calculated like that. SL TRAFFIC: Each avatar is online a certain amount of time in a 24 hour period. Wherever that avatr spends their time the most in the 24 hour period gets the most credit for that avatar's online time that day. So your 90 minute performance really does very little in effecting a venue's traffic.

This thread was started for people (mostly venue owners) who need to develop a way to keep booking live performers without going broke trying to do so. Obviously, this is not something your willing to discuss with us. You have made your point clear that you prefer the status quo. We heard you already. And now we will be discussing alternatives to the status quo. Yes, this will send you into another rage. But it is a conversation that will take place.

Now your on the right page.

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Good plan. Most people do not post in a forum to debate the point they are trying to make. They post to have a open discussion with like-minded people - not defend themselves for three pages. Allow people to discuss this. It will not hurt your business or your friends. It is just a discussion.

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Lias - I am done posting - I won't play the cut and paste game - your derogatory comments that caused me to respond are there for anyone to read. I can't help but wonder however, what exactly you are wanting from having live acts in your venues if it is not traffic. If it is for personal entertainment - then hire what you can afford for whatever your reasons are for hiring them. - Don't discuss performers you've never hired or their assistants that you do not know. That way the "discussion" as you put it can focus on what you imply you want to get out of here - some solution to some problem. when you figure it out - all the best.

Great, when you find them let us know.

"Get all you can and go" will not work in the long run. And l you have tunnel vision. You do not know how a venue makes a income. Traffic can be obtained through campers and at a fraction of the cost of a musician - and would be more effective because campers stay on the parcel much longer. Your just talking out of emotion and your not being logical.


I will, of course, discuss whomever I like. Be they your associate or not.

Now that the status quo-ers have left the building: Creating a symbiotic relationship between the venue, the musician and the audience - ways to start achieving that in Second Life.

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Who needs to pay campers? You can get your own bots and do it for the cost of running your computer.

As has been said earlier, venues don't make any income unless they have some other business on the side. Very few people shop or otherwise patronize the venue at these events, and fewer still stick around after the show is over unless there is another act. People are so used to getting music for free that they don't realize the costs of running a venue, between land tier, staffing, streams and musician fees. Until the fans start giving more to venues or will pay to see musicians, we will remain in the sad state that we are in, with clubs appearing and dying over and over again.

Agreed. Many musicians insist upon getting paid but they do not encourage their fans to buy a ticket to see their show at a venue.

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My god you are an ass

Lias they are providing a service for which they are suitably qualified. If you don't like paying someone to provide a service - feel free to get up on the stage and have a sing, I can guarantee you aren't going yo get the crowds which you so desire.

Yes, anyone can do it themselves. Just play a live recorded concert, put some folks on the stage with animated instruments and and call it a tribute band. That generates the same amount of people for the same amount of time. But that it not what is being discussed here.

I'll try again. Both the musician and the venue owner are providing a service. And the venue is NOT being compensated fairly. The OP, some others that posted here and I would like to openly discuss an alternative to the status quo that has developed. We want to discuss a way to create a symbiotic relationship between the musician, the audience and the venue (since we all are naturally linked).

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As far as tribute bands go ..if venue owners want to pay people to animate their avis along with recorded music that's up to them. I am talking about musicians, who play live, have bought equipment, provide a good show, use original material and high quality instruments, and spend time before a show warming up their voices and their instruments.

Again I say that they are providing a service.

If you want quality, you have to pay for it. if you don't want quality, then don't pay for it. That may be the status quo now

You pay a performer to play at your venue.. is it not your responsibility to monetise that time to your advantage? I don't think it is up to the musician to arrive with a business plan for you to make the most of their time. They play music, which is, I believe what you asked them to do at your venue.

There are plenty of musicians that will play for tip only. Why not just use them?

In real life if the venue sees no income from booking an artist (ticket sales, corporate endorsements) Then the event is canceled. You know that. Therefore the model that is in use in SL is not one that works.

When Live musicians started playing in SL a few years ago they did it for tips and to promote their own live careers. Once they realized they could charge venue owners it got out of hand real quick. When they were asking for 1500 Linden it did not seem an issue (we pay DJs that). But now it is ridiculous and positive change needs to happen.

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But it is the venue owners that carry that on...except those that offer tip only (which I mentioned in my last post as a solution), you seem to have glossed over the fact that you are able to offer tip only gigs to musicians... why are you not doing that, if you feel unable to pay them under your current business plan?

JP Loening....this is NOT funny. This is reflecting on me and OUR venue. You remember the venue right? The one YOU AND I run together? The one where you whole heartedly agreed that we would strictly have live music at? If I can't pay a musician, I don't have them play there..its that simple. If a venue is losing money because they are paying their musicians too much, stop whining about it and turn your venue into a DJ only club. There are hundreds of other venues out there that aren't whining about paying out. PAYING MUSICIANS IS A CHOICE. It's not a necessity. Having a venue that has live music is a choice, nobody busted anybody's arms to do it. If you don't like, or can't pay a musician, make it a tip only venue. All of this...ALL OF IT..is about YOUR OWN CHOICES. I don't think any managers came in mob style into SL and threatened venue owners to book their musicians or else. This has gotten completely ridiculous. Calling out musicians and managers, calling out Venue owners. If this is what you wanted JP, then know I'm not extremely freaking happy with you right now. And remember Mr Loening..I do covers, and you are on them like flys on Sh** when I do. Does it make me, YOUR PARTNER any less of a musician because I choose to do covers instead of bringing my originals in? How about our best friend? Is he any less of a musician. Boy you need to think before you start spouting off things sometimes. We work very closely with the people you are currently offending. If you have something to say to them, say it in their IMs not in a freaking public forum.
For the record, Jp carries his OWN opinion. It IS NOT MINE. I am taking some heat on this because Jp is my partner. I DO NOT FEEL THE SAME WAY HE DOES. I want to make that clear..even to him.

October, don't fret. The SL musicians you deal with will still pretend to respect you as long as you pay their arbitrary fees.

It is not about affording to pay musicians - it is about a real business plan that works for both parties - not a complete pay-out to musicians and red ink on the venue side after each event. No one is saying not to pay these people. What is to be discussed here is a way that they can get paid and the venue not be stuck with the bill and on top of that not make any income from the live performance.

I know there are at least two or three people out there that are not afraid of being blacklisted by the live music community and is willing to discuss viable solutions.

MY SUGGESTION: Developing a foundation that banks sponsor money. Musicians could register with the foundation and accept their Live Music fees for certain venue types (this way we have a set scale to rely on). The venue applies for a musician. The musician comes along with a sponsor. That sponsor's money is used to off-set the cost of booking that artist. The Venue displays the sponsor's advertisement during the live performance.

Discuss.

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So we can only discuss your proposal?

Why do you keep skirting tip only?

Lias patently has an agenda: that musicians should not be paid, should rely on tips only and be grateful for the abuse they get from venue owners.

It's weird .. do you have someone twisting your arm to make you pay all these musicians?

Offer tip only, some will take it some won't.

It is not their job to make your venue pay. If you choose for your venue to be a business, then it is down to you to make it pay.

A lot of people run venues just because they enjoy having a venue.

If you don't want to or can't or don't think it's right then don't offer them money to play at your place.

It actually is as simple as that.

Lias,
I play for tips only but there are venues out there that DON'T allow that, and demand a fee, which baffles me, but it's their CHOICE. And thats the point I am going to stick to. I CHOOSE to pay musicians a fee at my venue. But I also set a budget and won't hire a musician over a certain amount because I simply can't afford to. And really, why can't you see that its what it really boils down to, a choice. Just like making clothes and opening a clothing store in SL is a choice, going into Second Life at all is a choice. Do I wish I was getting money back in venue donations? Of course I do. But If I can't afford the payout that week, I have yet to have a manager freak out on me for it when I say "Sorry I can't really afford to have him/her play here this week" Usually I get a return reply of "okay hon, or often I get a "well lets figure it out so you have some kind of music and you aren't just closed that night" And then guess what, a lot of times, those same musicians I can't afford will just play for tips. Huh. Imagine that. I have high doubts that anybody forced you to have live musicians at your place. And I guess I have to wonder why you are so bitter towards SL musicians? I can actually feel it seething from your words with quotes like "The SL musicians you deal with will still pretend to respect you as long as you pay their arbitrary fees." I AM an SL musician as well as a venue owner, so what side do I fall on in your category? I work with other venue owners, cross advertising and its funny how some of us can all work together and help balance each other out. I have also helped many new musicians learn how to stream and play their music in SL at MY OWN expense, helping them initially purchase streams and handing them Lindens to buy clothes and get out of their newbie skins and buy SL guitars and mics and all that good jazz. What I get out of it satisfaction that I have helped a musician maybe break into the virtual world with their music because music is important to me. One of the top paid musicians in SL knew I couldnt afford to have him play at my venue, and he played anyway, just on tips, just cuz. I didn't ask him to, and his manager didn't complain, she was all for it, and when I tipped him a large amount, he actually complained and asked "why did you do that?" and..gave it back to the venue. So I guess I'm not seeing your point or else maybe I DO have a rapport and respect from musicians that you don't and didn't have. But to get respect, you clearly have to show respect. It's a give and take sort of deal. If I feel a musician has disrespected me in some way, I simply don't invite him/her back, and that too is a choice. If I feel their ego is inflated beyond their talent, and they act like a spoiled Diva, I simply don't have them at the venue, which is also a choice. And so far, I've only run into this once, and it was with a musician that didn't even know how to stream right and blamed everybody else and threw a tantrum. And I've worked with a LOT of musicians. Is this a network you tried to become a part of and were rejected because you clearly have less then a joyous attitude towards musicians in the first place? I'm not downing you, I'm just trying to understand your apparent loathing towards SL Musicians and their managers. I CAN see all points in this. I really can. But I think too many people come into Second Life thinking they can open clubs and turn a profit when the SL economy is clearly no where near the RL Economy. And even in RL it usually takes three years for a new business to turn any kind of real profit at all. But people come into Second Life I think with visions of turning instant profits. I don't think it will ever work that way in ANY economy.

As for the Royalty laws. Yeah they already tried to crack down on that. What happened was there were so many grey areas, that they were slapping lawsuits on people for royalities and their own boat started financially sinking. SoundExchange which is the company that heads up any digital broadcasting royalties also started sinking financially. They were paying out more money trying to collect royalites then they were making recovering the royalty fees, and they were losing in court. If they have to charge a cover band royalties for making money off cover songs, then they also had to go after the street musicians that were singing cover tunes on the sidewalks for tips in their hats, and they would have to go after little Suzy for covering a song in a talent show because she won a savings bond, and they would have to go after any person that sang a cover song at any time and made money off from it, even if Grandpa gave them five bucks for doing such a shining job entertaining the family. And these points were used in court on many occasions with the judge agreeing that there wasn't a fine enough line. They would have to charge DJs for spinning the tunes in a club without a radio station license, and they would have to charge Karaoke businesses and music outside of listening to it on TV and Radio would become a dying thing to people and in the end, it would be too costly for the royalty companies involved. Now it is nothing more then a scare tactic with an occassional lawsuit if there is enough money to be made and they are sure they won't lose. And why did this come into play in the first place? The answer is simple...Greed. And I blame Metallica wholeheartedly for the whole thing. This snowball started with their whining. And what followed after was nothing more then a nightmare. Is Peer to Peer any different then when we used to stick a cassette in our tape decks and wait for a certain song to come on the radio so we could tape it? This is the rich complaining because they aren't getting any richer. Because I'm pretty sure when Metallica was nobody, they would have been honored if someone said, "hey thats an awesome song, can our cover band cover that?" I researched long and hard and found so many loopholes, and I use them often. When I record a cover tune, I add the original artist and the original song writer in the title. Whats more, is that 85 percent of the artists don't use songs that THEY have written anyway. They pay maybe 1000 dollars for a song, contract it so the actual song writer gets no more royalties, then they cover it themselves and that is EXACTLY what they are doing, covering it, only THEY make all the money off from it. Isn't that funny how that works? It's why I stopped submitting my lyrics to BMI. I wrote a very long, well researched and time consuming term paper on this for my minor in economics. And it boiled down to simple economics, the rich just get richer while the poor do all the work.
Thats my rant.

I am sure no one is going to read that filibuster.

I am suggesting a real working business model. Not a one-sided relationship with musicians. Business models that benefit everyone are the only lasting models. You may rant and rave and threaten to black-list venue owners that openly discuss such things - but we will support any model that benefits both parties and not just one. This will, in no way harm musicians. On the contrary, more venue owners would book artists if it was a fair deal. And more musicians would play the smaller venues because their income would not be negatively impacted.

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