Live Performers (upfront fee)

You have hit upon a viable solution - and the barrier to that solution.

Allowing corporations to have a advertisement at a live performance in a venue would cover everyone's costs. BUT corporations are nto willing to pay to advertise to just 100 avatars of unknown demographics.

NBC Sim had Jay-Z perform (or attempted to) and tried to simulcast it. Needless to say it was a disaster.

When we can provide the corporations with a wide audience of consumers to advertise to then they would consider the performances in Second Life a good investment.


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How much Do i understand about economics? Well I spent 3 years as a full time trader/investor in the futures and financial markets. I've been in the markets for about 10 years. I am not gonna say how much i made. But it was in the high five figures for 2 of them years. I still trade and invest as much as i did before. But i decided to go into music full time. All in all i've worked in the financial markets for 9 years. I've also ran a courier business and a bistro.

I never intended on bashing Max. He is a good singer. I really enjoy his shows actually...Why was it so wrong for me to put out his fee? You shouldn't be ashamed of something like that...

My opinion towards fees with musicians in Second life is pretty firm. Its way over inflated and its a no win situation for the venues.

I understand both sides of this. I am a musician. I spent a year on the road right after i graduated high school just playing gigs. We didn't make a lot. But it was enough to eat and wipe our butts with. I've also like i said above. have a crap load of experience in business. So i understand numbers. and when something works and when it doesn't. Paying musicians 5000 to 10000 lindens to play an hour. Is way to high. the Venue owner never makes money.........

Now again, I didn't set out to attack anybody in this post. Stop saying that. Cause its false. And another thing. if ya'll got a problem with my post. Don't go running to my friends and asking them about it. Talk to me........

I am the partner JP is referring to in his original post as most of you probably already know. I am both a venue owner and an SL musician. And I think I need to stress what JP did not. As a venue owner in SL, I am not making the money back in booze sales, cover charges and ticket sales that a Real Life venue would when booking musicians at 200-1000 bucks a whack.. I pay out almost 300 USD a month for live music at my venue and get maybe 20 USD back in donations and I have yet to complain about it because I CHOSE to do it. But Sadly, I can't keep going this way because I have kids in RL to feed and 20 USD adds up when you are booking more then one musician a week. My only problem is most of the time the musician is not only getting paid a lump sum to play, but they are also making a lot extra in tips and the venue is barely getting donated to and I've seen it many times that that some musicians don't donate back to the venue either. This makes it hard for those of us that aren't made out of money but want live music at their venues. And this is why a lot of venues in Sl just aren't making it and they close their doors or go to DJ only clubs.
As a musician I can tell you I pay at AT MOST 45.00 a month in USD to perform in SL. I don't have to set up heavy equipment, I don't have to drive from place to place and use gas and I don't have to stand under lights and exhaust myself by "putting on a show full of showmanship". Which is why Im here because fate took that away from me in RL. But in another sense I am also giving up time and energy and rescheduling my RL sometimes to be able to perform in SL, I still have to practice two hours a day, learn new songs, sometimes pay for the backing tracks or have my former band or my kids record them for me and by the end of the day performing in SL I am exhausted. And just as in RL, time is of value, and if you knew my RL you'd understand just how much. I am a brutally honest person and can't be anything less in SL anymore then I could be in RL. I don't depend on Second Life as an income because I know realistically at any moment, Linden labs could pull the plug, and then where would I be? And with a minor in Economics, nobody needs to explain to me SL economics vs RL economics. Music is my second love, my first my children. I have put 20 years into the music business in RL so Im not an amatuer either. I personally have an issue charging venues to play for them. But thats MY choice based on my own opinion and it was something discussed in length with my manager. Are there musicians in SL worth 8000L-10000L a whack? You bet your sweet ass there is and I have the pleasure of knowing and listening to some of them. Can I afford them? No I can't, even though I hugely wish I could because their music inspires me to work harder as an SL musician. So they play at the venues that can afford them and I more or less book musicians within my monetary range and I'm okay with that, but it doesnt mean those musicians are any less talented, their rates are just lower, its that simple. MY favorite thing to do here at my venue is to help new musicians get their music into SL. Thats satisfying enough for me. I can't complain about the money I pay out because it was MY CHOICE to do so. Nobody twisted my arm. And I'm honest when I can't afford a musician, I let them know I can't. Cuz thats only fair.
I have become friends with a lot of musicians and I respect their right to decide if they want to charge a venue or not. So my advice? And i may get into trouble for this, if you know you cant afford to pay the musicians, make your venue a tip only venue. Nobody twisted venue owners arms into having live musicians play at their clubs. Even though I see the point of view, it doesnt mean I can completely agree with it.

Be realistic. A song download is 99 cents. Musicians at a SL gig sing about 6 songs. That's 1,572 Lindens.

I mean no disrespect, but Im not sure what gigs you are going to. I know in an hours time, I sing farrrrr more then six songs.

As a very old Voodoo Lounge alum, I remember going there when there were a lot of DJ's playing music at the Voodoo Lounge. Do you still have DJ's there playing music? I'm sure they don't play their own original compositions. So the problem still remains. Royalties. Are they getting enough to pay them? If not, how long do you think they can afford to foot the bill, or will last after they have to go to court?

That is why I supply the stream and insist they use my stream. My stream comes from a legal radio station in Canada. I have had the same stream since 2005.

The point is that royalties and the cost of a shoutcast stream are not real problems for musicians. Both can be dealt with quite easily. The nearly 100% profit the musicians make off of the venue owners is too much.

Making it so only the rich can afford music just does not seem right to me. But SL is a business to LL and many others. The grass-roots, hippie thing doesn't go far here.

Have you thought about locking into a contract with certain musicians over a certain amount that you get 20-30 percent of their tips donated back to the venue?

I hand the musician $5,000L and he gives me a rebate of perhaps $2,000L (if I am 'lucky'). So he earns over $10,000L total and I am out $3,000L plus cost of staff and the ever-looming tier. Does not sound like a win-win situation to me.

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Come on, lets get this thread going, i have two weeks to mess around on here cause i lcan't log into sl until i get back to Dallas..lol

Comparing musicians in sl with royalties on Itunes doesn't really work most of the time. Because most live musicians don't play their own stuff in second life.....If you think about that. thats going to open up a whole new can of beans when ASCAP and BMI come knocking on LL doors......

Thats why we need more original music in second life. Until people start playing their own stuff and actually get a following within the game. we shouldn't be paying musicians 40 dollars an hour to play for 15 to 20 people....

Now if musicians were charging 200 lindens as a fee to walk in the door. that wouldn't be much of an issue with me....The only reason people charge massive fees like that is because of two things, Greed and there overhead gets way to high....

People have to remember when you cross that line from SL being a game to SL being an income stream. Your going to be walking a tight rope, Because at any day and any time of day Linden labs can pull the plug...All that experience you think you got as a musician will be gone. It won't mean anything in that world you go to when you shut off your computer...

I have nothing against any musician in second life. There are alot of really good musicians inworld...I am all about equality within the market place of live music......

That's the drum I'm banging. I've been reading the laws. There is a crisis coming for SL music, and I keep being told in various ways to sit down, shut up, and stop rocking the boat.

The United States is just the first domino to fall, too. There are other countries that also have laws regarding paying royalties. Canada, the United Kingdom, and frankly any country which has signed as a party to the Berne Convention, are all included. I'm betting that when they actually start actively enforcing the laws passed this year in the United States, it's only a matter of time before other Berne-subscribing countries start taking similar action. And what of the DJ's and musicians in SL who aren't playing/performing their own original compositions? Not a single one is going to be in a position where they can afford to keep it up, and they will be silenced.

That's going to make SL a very quiet grid. Bank on it.

Yea, Thats because most of the people in Second life have separated the two worlds of real and fake.......They canceled out the laws regarding real life......A lot of people in second life just don't understand the laws regarding copyright.....

I've gotten a lot of flak from people regarding my opinions on fees in second life. But they are just mad cause they are afraid they are gonna lose their gravy train.....

What i don't understand is why more musicians don't use second life to promote their own music VS just playing covers........people say the market isn't really there to just play originals.......I think if somebody came into second life with good original music. people would come and listen...

The problem is nobody has really come into second life with REALLY good original music that creates a following............

Anybody can create a following by playing todays best hits from other artists......People feel comfort in familiar music......There is nothing wrong with playing covers.. but it would be nice to hear more originals.......

Indeed, Ive also had live performers at my venue and it is very costly. I have nothing against that, but there is a point where the musicians must learn to appreciate the venues that have them play there. At my place we have begun disallowing them to rez their own tip jars seeing as they are getting 5k or more up front, with tips, that is good money so now they must use our tip jars so the venue gets supported.

My wake up call, was the night we had a live guitarist in, and they made almost 11k in tips, plus the 5k we paid them and the club made nothing. As a venue owner, I cannot have it make nothing, and I cannot have my dancers and entertainers make nothing. So now, they must use our tip jars and take a 1000L cut in order to play and be pad. We have live performances a lot, and at 20 bucks a night sometimes twice or three times a day. I cannot afford to be dishing 60 bucks here and there when it hasnt been able to make more than its own cost.

So, that is how I solved this issue.

At the venues I book for, we don't have venue tip jars and we pay the artists a fee. I know a few others that do this also

Please enjoy your free holiday gift from the SL Live Musicians - a free mp3 - Christmas All Year Through.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/wttmmwunktz/SLChristmasAllYearThrough.mp3

The MP3 is a collaborative recording featuring 22 SL musicians all performing an original song entitled "Christmas All Year Through", having recorded their contributions remotely from all over the world. The song was written by Djai Skjellerup and the final mix was painstaking put together by Toby Lancaster.

PS: You can tip the musicians directly, also

I was asked not to make a big deal out of all this here. I won't. I'll just suffice to say - if you can't afford it.. leave it alone. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it.
I have nothing nice to say JP - so..perhaps that will be enuf for you to undertand that your posts here have been inappropriate and hurtful.
You've no idea what people put in. You've no idea what they give back. You've no idea how loved and respected they are. That is obvious. I for one have had enuf of these posts and I hope their tone stops.

It is neither hurtful or innapropriate to discuss the financial implications of venue owners supporting Live performances in SL. Charging whatever you want to the sole supporter of your artform is not acceptable in the long wrong. As you can see from more and more of these posts - it is creating a negative atmosphere in the community. We only want a viable solution that benefits both parties. You may be an elitist and perform for the highest bidder - but that is your way. We hope to develop a better way.


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Lias - I neither know you nor challenge your right to discuss. What i DO challenge and WILL defend is the complete inappropriateness of you people assessing me, the artists i represent or ANYONE in a derogatory fashion. Elitest? Let me tell you darlin, I spend more of my time here than i do at my six figure salary helping these artists , helping your venues, asking for tips for your venues, supporting charity events and in general donating my time to the sl live music scene. If you think I'm in it for the money, you are sorely misinformed. You want to discuss the "issues" discuss them - but do NOT bring names or well deserved and hard earned specific fees into this discussion. These musicians spend an exhorbitant amount of time here - are available for 4 or 5 shows a day, are still in demand for more performances than they can manage to humanly accomodate. You have NO idea who I am or what i stand for and I will not take your personal attacks here.
And for the record - Max fans are about the most generous and giving people on the grid - how many do you know that will fork over 80000 or more lindens at charitable events - Perhaps your own intentions for the music scene here ought to be reevealuated. Cut down what you know or understand - otherwise your ignorance is sorely showing. I'm blinded by the beacon of it right now.

We criticize a bad business model that you all support and promote. Someone in the music business knows that venues do not survive on tips. And that as the venues flourish so does the artists that play in them. It is something known as an symbiotic relationship. As opposed to the 'suck them dry and move on to the next venue that opens' business model you support.

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Bottom line. Have a venue if you want one... if you don't want to pay for it don't have one. Musicians do not need you. If you close your venue 10 more people will open venues to replace it. Even if somehow there were NO venues left in SL... musicians could play at their own homes and if they are good singers and have good marketing, people will come.
It's not that I don't appreciate a nice venue. I do. But this whole attitude that musicians (or even music fans) somehow owe the the venue owners anything really rubs me the wrong way. If I chose to own a club I would not expect other people to pay for it. I'd figure out ways to subsidize it... rent shops in the back, apartments, advertising, whatever. How about just hang out there and have an engaging personality? That would certainly bring in some venue tips. Showing up on the forums and belittling successesful artists or comparing a live event to paying for a song on I-tunes certainly is not going to make anyone want to support your venture.

Lias - you have lots of options. Here's another. Stop your attacks. I can't even remember the last time, if ever, that any of our acts were at your clubs. You've no right to position us as sucking anyone dry. You're obviously bitter due to lack of success with your own model. Continue to seek some way to turn it around, that's fine. But stop tearing down others. You've chosen what you are able to support and what you wish to bring to your club. No one is twisting your arm to hire the caliber of artists we support. Your attacks are unwarranted and sad. Enough.

Hugs Eli relentlessly. Well said.

That home cost tier payments. So their profit goes down because of that. Understand land costs?

It is a symbiotic relationship (or should be) The venue, the fan and the musician. We are encouraged to supportthe arts. I encourage the artists to the support the venue that the art takes place in. Support by working with venue owners to develop a better model for live performances in SL.

No one is looking for musicians to subsidize a club. We are looking for musicians to have reasonable prices and not charge as much as they can because they can. Their overhead is no higher than ours.

I was never one to engage in popularity contests. Veiled little clique threats do not impress me. I stated the facts as I, and many other venue owners see it. You can listen impartially or howl at the moon. It makes no difference to me.

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Seriously? Are you just trolling here? You can't be that clueless. Ever heard of Cylindrian? Juel? EvaMoon? Skinny? Dexter? and all the other SL musicians that perform origionals that you just SLAMMED.
Good Lord!

/me waves at Joy!

. Joyous I never mentioned any performer's name. That was someone else in this thread. Perhaps you need to look back and see for yourself.

Joyous I assume your some sort of virtual artist booker. And you take a commission on the shows you book. So, of course, it is in your best interest to charge as much as you can to increase your commission. Enough said.

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