Live Performers (upfront fee)

The real problem as I see it, as was mentioned earlier, is not the Venue owners, nor is it the musicians. For the most part the 2 work hand in hand for both thier mutual benefit (or at least desire to.)

SL is flooded with people who view SL as a video game. I would venture to say that the majority dont own land or even have premium account or even the ability to earn or purchase Lindens. (other than camping maybe) Me...I'm a hardcore SL'fer. I spend hundreds a month on land, products, texture uploads, and even tipping my favorite performers and venues. Its people like me really that keep both of you afloat, but sadly....people like me are a minority.

The problem is that you both expect the average noobie Joe sixpack SL'fer to fork over his hard earned camping money cause he appreciates beautiful music and lovely venues. Call me cynical..but it just dont work that way.

If you want to get mad at somone...get mad at the schmuck that goes to your concert, listens to your music, enjoys the dance balls in the sim you pay for, picks up some guy pretending to be a girl, and goes off to engage in a little pose ball nookie and tips the musician and the venue 10L and doesnt buy a damn thing from your shops.

Sure you can charge upfront for people to hear you, and enjoy your sims, but you know who'l be the only ones there? People like me. Personaly, thad be just fine with me, I'm tired of looking at those blingtards and they just make things laggy anyway. But economicaly speaking, the end result will still be the same....well minus the 10L they DO fork over.

Michelle and many other fine muscians in SL are casting thier pearls before swine, and most venue owners are providing a lovely golden troughs for them to stick thier snouts in. Yeah there are some who make good money in SL, but they are very few, and have 2 ways of doing it. 1. By providing good quality goods and services to those willing to pay for it (like me) and 2. Appealing to the lowest common denominator en mass. The two shall rarely if ever meet. That btw if you havent noticed is Linden Labs business model in a nutshell.

Anyway...who the hell cares what I think anyway...I'm gonna go plant some prim daiseys or something

Great discussion on this subject:

http://www.metanomics.net/transcript031609

Worth the read, if you haven't already.

But most Live Performers earn over $3,000L in tips from the audience at the show.

Again, Venues are not Malls. We are exploring ways to cover the musician fees without having the Venue owner to absorb it all (since, over the last three years the musician fees have nearly tripled for the same service) and not make the venue owners buy more prims to sell clothes.

But there is,obviously a third way - as is evident by the income some Live Musicians make from the sole supporters of Live Music (Venue Owners).

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You may also read and research another discussion:

http://homelessmartian.wordpress.com/

This link is a conversation between SL Live Performers who are discussing how they can get more money from their Live Performances. At no point in their discussion do they mention the venue owner. The one Island owner that hosts live music in the conversation said she makes no money and does it for the love of music. And then they moved on to complain about the tip jars not getting full enough when there is too much lag at a event.

I wish they had touched upon the venue owner's viewpoint and showed some concern.

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This blogger is a little random (to say the least)




And on and on.

This is the same song and dance most SLers have been doing whenever a Venue owner says "share the Income from Live Performances". Thanks for the links But they just keep ignoring the venue. Their goal is to increase the income of the Musician. The goal of this thread is to plan ways to keep Live Music Venues in Business by finding a way to have the musician fees paid in soem other manner.

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Wow... this thread has made me really think and I've just about decided that my venue will be tips-only from now on. Venue owners (like me) love music, but I don't think we should be paying the bill for the performers. If they really have fans that like them, then they can make their money off of their fans, not the venue owners. If your fans tip you L$500 during your performance, then that's how much you're worth. Not L$5000.

MichelleD really angered me with her greed. The music venue owner is paying L$5000 for the same entertainment that a fan that tips L$50 is getting and it's just not fair. The venue owners spend just as much time on the performance as the artist and put in almost as much work. Unlike the musicians, we are not asking to make money. As stated earlier, we are asking to compromise so that after we have put in hours of work to make your performances possible, we don't lose money every time.

How about we charge the fans a fee of L$100-L$200 for a concert and give 90% of that to the artist then we can have 1 tip jar that the artist and venue share 50/50 for any fans that choose to go beyond the entrance fee? (If any musicians want to give this a try at my place, send me a notecard in world)

The music scene in SL is currently being paid for by the venue owners and we need to change that so that the fans are supporting their favorite artists. I really believe that the artists don't deserve anything beyond what their fans are willing to pay to see them.


(This being said, although I haven't performed in SL, I am a serious musician in RL and know how much practice and effort goes into it)

Is music your sole income Stoney?
It is mine.

If I'm Greedy, how come my family lives at poverty level? I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

You'd do anything you could too, to put food in your kids mouth and to provide
health care for him / her. Music is an honest profession though there are some who would disagree. I'm grateful for SL and the many friends I've made here.

My original post was about the concern of some venues not following through with
what they promised a performer... and then asked me to promote their tip jar. I was mislead. Then a couple other venues wanted me to play for free, and I did, but I was asked to promote their tip jar quite a few times during the show. If you're not paying the musician, then why is it the musician's job to promote your tip jar? You can still put one out. Have someone else promote it.


I never said I wasn't flexible. I charge 5K as a base fee. Lets work together on a reasonable amount. Free is not an option for me.

Lets split a tip jar, I won't accept head tips either. I'll pass those to the venue as well. There has to be an element of trust between the artist and the venue. If you're sure I make 5K in tips.. then half of that is 2500. Not bad on my tip jar, and then adding on your tip jar.

Here's an idea What if we played for tips only, but we guaranteed say 4k be made in the tip jar. What if my tip jar raised 3k.. would you be willing then, to top off the tip jar to 4k?
You'd still have yours out.. but atleast you wouldn't lose so much there. That, of course, would be inconsistant. I've presented several ideas to try and help you.. but you are dead set on making me and every other musician look greedy.

There are many many times when a venue says.. "Michelle, I can only afford this much and I say.. "sure", because I'm willing to work with them. I'm not dead set on 5K, but I am dead set on not providing my services for free.

Yes being a musician is hard work especially when it's your sole income for your family.
Your Second life venue isn't your sole income for your family... but I know what goes into a venue and I know that you don't ever make a profit when hiring a musician. For that, I'm sorry. I know there is a solution.. but I do believe you'd rather fight about it.

I encourage everyone to read the unedited versions of what I said before.. so they get a BETTER understanding of where my heart is. I'm sorry if I sounded angry myself. It's out of character for me but to be attacked when they don't know my heart, puts me on the defense. It's never been my intention to take from the venue and leave them broke.

I'm sure these words will get twisted and placed out of context too.

Awhh here we go again LOL
same old story

I play for 2 years now on SL
original instrumentals, a few covers.
for the stat freaks, about 6-8 originals and 2-4 covers depending on how my mood is.

i read that "we" play 6 songs during a set,
so i think i have to kick out half my set then LOL

I use my own recorded backings, have a lot of equipment blablablabla

I dont ask a fee, i dont want a fee, i dont have a tipjar.
I dont beg for tips, dont spam my group, i play........
my average is about 15-20 fans during a gig.

This whole discussion is going on for a long time
i was so sick of it that i stopped asking a fee or for tips.
used to ask 3 K a gig.

I heard all the stories.
Artists have expences,
it should be a respect thing,
etc.etc.etc.etc.

Like i said about 18 months ago.
I allready had the tools to play music
i change guitar strings every set ( yeah im dumb to do that )
spend about 12 to 16 hours on music a day
But noone pays for that.

What should i ask ?

If i ask 5 k then i get that,
but others ask more, some up to 15 k for covers.
So to respect me i should get more then 15 K,
or isnt a original more worth then a cover ?
or is it about how many peeps you drag in ?
or ............ (you get the point with talking about respect )


But if i say that outloud ( witch i dont )
then you get slammed around offcourse.

I see that venues say something like
"we dont wanna earn money but have our costs covered"

Ok fair enough

5 K is about 15 euro's ???

a set of strings is in holland about 15
my payment per hour is about 25
after all, i lost recently my job so i dont have a real income
( and i warm up at least an hour, so thats 2 )

so that is allready 65 euro ( thats about 20 K in Lindens )
and i still dont earn anything cause those 2 hours are gone....
If someone wants to book me for that, IM me a.s.a.p

Am i a pro musician ?

Interesting words, pro musician ?
I dont make money so i am officially not a pro.
I loose money, so i am an anti-pro musician

My problem with this stuff is this.

YOU didnt asked us to start playing
WE didnt asked you to start a venue, thats your own choise, just as it is our choise
to play our music.

Yes but we need venues !!!!!!

Euhhh not really on SL.
what i need is someone who has rights to put in my stream
it can be a venue, someones house, an empy plot of land, anywhere.......

So to avoid to get into drama, i dropped my fees and tipjar
and just do my thing........

this discussion will go on till the end of days ( or till LL pulls the plug out of SL )

Lias, a couple notes . . .

There were two venue owners in that conversation, JenzZa Misfit of Muse Isle and Ham Rambler of the Dublin and San Diego sim. They run a couple of the oldest live music venues in Second Life. No, they didn't talk about ways to make money. That's not what the show was about and talking about it has a tendency to alienate audience. We need more audience, not less.

Though she's not a venue owner herself, Cher Harrington is the owner/operator of SL Live Music Radio (the longest running radio station in SL playing only SL musicians) and has hosted and managed several large, very busy venues (including Ham's Blarney Stone) in Second Life over the past couple years. Not a lot of folks know the venue side better than Cher.

Finally, I didn't read HomeLess's post, but I know the cadence of his writing very well, there's much being left out here. Less is a regular supporter of both of my venues and is a huge fan of venue owners. He calls them as he sees them (who can argue that venue owners don't make money, they pay money?), but believe me, he definitely supports venue owners.

Michelle is in no way shape or form "greedy" I have personaly seen MANY times when she will not even rez a tip jar and ask everyone to tip the venue ONLY. She does this cause she knows that without the venues then there isnt a place to play. Shes played MANY a gig for free just to help the venue owner out. Shes played dozens of charity benefit concerts in SL. Ive seen her do this over and over personaly.

I know Michelle, and to insult someone who makes the sacrifices she does for her family and friends...shame on you. I'm pretty sure that Michelle wants what is fair..fair for musicians ...and fair for the venues, and I say this cause I've seen her do it time after time.

You got a new way of providing live music in SL that fair to the musician and the venues?

QUOTE THIS: I sincerely hope it succeeds and wish you much success. I really do.


Reply if you want...I wont be reading anymore...I hate these stupid forums. As if anything said here really amounts to a rat fart anyway. That includes my own posts.

Its not about you deserviong the money - or blacklisti8ng anyone that goes against the status quo. Its about recognizing the problem - and working together to resolve it. So these emotional filibusters from musicians are out of place here. This thread is about THE CHANGE. All of the status quo chatter falls on deaf ears here.

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But the musicians talked about monetizing their SL gigs - ways to get more tips in their tip jars during events and some other mentions of Musician Income.

When most say 'support venue owners' that means just showing up (LIP SERVICE). When they say 'support SL Musicians' it means the Venue owner pays the musician (PUTTING THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS).

The Musician feels they deserve these fees (even though just three years ago they played for exposure and RL Mp3 sales in SL) And this thread was started to discuss ways to make that happen without venues going into the red 'supporting' SL Musicians.

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Seems the only discussion "allowed" in this thread is one "solution"

Give your idea a try and let us know!

We would all appreciate the feedback

You know Cher, if we could get past all of this side talk from musicians and their fans of the status quo then we could really discuss some solutions here. This is not an attack on SL Musicians - just an attempt for the VENUE SCENE to survive and hopefully flourish under the strain of all of these financial obligations. You and several others donot want to discuss this - and that's ok. But we would like to. It is one thread in one forum - it will not effect any musician's income. Not to worry.

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psssst....Lias....so the opinions of the musicians are out of place here.....what about the opinions of the people who plug the money into both jars.....out of place as well? If so...just disregard the following.

I mean, if we're not plugging the money in....you will have no musician....sounds like you're not going to take care of it, so it's up to us.....without the musician and their music......you have nothing.

So your Foundation wants to "get past all the this side talk from musicians and their fans".....correct? Just leave those two aspects out.....and you are ready to Rock'n'Roll ???

I hope you find a Marketing Whiz that can adjust your Spin a tad.....because the above rigidity, disrespect, and disregard for a musician and their fans....means I won't be plugging a venue jar for a while....yeah...people like me are reading this.....check the view count....that isn't all venue owners....that's a sample of your general public there.....and you're leaving an impression.....so much for resolving your financial problems on behalf of the venue owners.

Don't be silly Mickey. There were venues in SL before the Live Music scene started.

If the side talk is just "Show me the Money" we already heard that. And we are working on a way to do that without going into the red.

The $1,000L in tips are appreciated. But they just offset the $5,000: the venue paid the musician. So it is not a solid financial solution. Blacklisting threats don't work here. Attempting to bully venue owners into silence just won't work anymore. We just want to work on a viable solution. Sorry if that upsets you.

Keep an eye on the Second Life Population - IT GROWS. And new people come with new ideas, If all you can see is Musician vs. Venue then obviously your not of teh mindset to appreciate any changes at all.

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Well, this is just silly side talk of course....but ironically, you are talking to a fan who has no problem paying a cover charge.....unfortunately, you've alienated one. But not to worry....it's "just one forum thread."

Michelle poured her guts out for you....not too many musicians are going to come in here and do that for you.....that was valuable input for you....not too shabby on her marketing ideas she tossed to you either....but you shut her down.

Earlier on in the thread, you shut down a few people who are die-hard contributors to the live music scene. Do your research...attend some shows....they were at EVERY SINGLE ONE of the shows for the musicians they represented.....and they are very well respected for that among us fans. How they attend every single show and juggle RL, I have no idea....only that their commitment shows. Being a business person....if I were to start a "Foundation" they would be the first people I would want to have on my side.



Now, you've just jabbed me a tad....as I am not clueless to what is going on with the SL population... have a grip on that....very clearly. The majority of my business does not come from every new person walking into the door for a 30 day stay....it comes from people who have planted roots here for a few years. I would be a complete idiot to think that I could disrespect and disregard their input and and their loyal business, month after month....in order to go after the next population arriving.....and still have a profitable business.

Do you ever read the profiles of the people who attend the live events? I do. Would venture to say that at least half of them are business owners....profitable businesses at that. They figured out how to do it...probably wasn't overnight....and knowing their reputations....they didn't do it by stepping on toes in the process. Would also venture to say...that is where the bulk of the revenues are coming in from....you know....those revenues you want a piece of.

It's not your concept that is at issue....it's your Spin and Methods. This is not a fly-by-night society here, as much as you would like to believe, and count on the new ideas coming in. The people who know the field....know the population...know the population's behavior.....know the successful business models....are the ones who have been around and paid their dues and learned it step by step. You alienate them....and you've alienated your backbone.....your core. No amount of "New" is going to resolve that.

Not even going to attempt to address you dissing the musicians....that's not my road to go down.....except that when you do that....it leaves an impression on their fans. Possibly look up the word "fan"....and see how that makes an impact.

You know....I remember way back when....when I used to go to the VooDoo Lounge.....surprised to be having this conversation with someone who has been around so long.

Your Foundation Group only has Five Members? Considering the number of venues and musicians in SL.....what does that say?

Mickey we heard your voice before regarding this issue. You were 'alienated' way before now. We have also explored cover charges for two years and we will continue to discuss other ideas also.

Michelle posted to complain about venues that did not pay her minimum after tips and also to complain about venue owners that make the landmark at the shopping area and not at her show. She did not say anything we have not heard before:"I make money from Live Music in SL and venue owners don't". We have all accepted that as fact. And now we are exploring VIABLE solutions other than becoming Malls.

You and I have different definitions of the live music scene. It is not all about the artist and the artist and the artist rep should not be the ones making profit. The venues provide a valuable service and are the Biggest supporters of Live Music In SL (by paying the fees of these Live Musicians).

Ad my business thrives on new players that want to become immersed in SL. So we profit from two different groups. The ones that stay refer my business to the new people they meet.

Again, I think you have some sort of 'blacklisting threat' in there. I wonder where all of your audacity comes from.

I never wanted to be a member of a clique that would have someone like me as a member.

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lias

There is NO problem ?

you talk about bizz models and all.
But its very simple.

YOU want to book me,
I ask 5 K ( witch i dont but assume i do )
YOU say yes or no, depending if you think i am worth it

If not or you dont have that money then we can talk about it,
or i say ""no way !!!!! i am way to cool" and you have to find someone else.

Still you didnt answer who is paying for my expences ?
the 20 k i loose on each gig ?

Unless your playing hookie from a paying job I cannot see anyone loosing $20K just by logging into SL.

Venue owners loose money when they pay tier, staff and Live Musician fees. Again this is not about YOU. Its about VENUE OWNERS developing a plan so they can continue to have live music in their venues without spending RL money on it.

Your simple 'business model' is so simple it does not work. Period. Back to the drawing board.

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Let me clarify about the mall thingy. When I was talking about trying to find a musician I wanted to hear... I was frustrated trying to find them.. at that point, my mind wasn't in shopping.. it was " find the musician". But when I'm frustrated at such a task, I'm no longer in the mood to even stay, much less shop. I offered to you an idea of... putting your wears by the stage near the musician like in a kiosk or something, so once the musician has been found and the listener is 'pleased' at such a task, then their mood is elevated and probably primed enuf for a purchase here or there. It's marketing.

LOL

so i dont have to buy strings for my guitar ? CoOooOoL
problem is that noone hears my stringless guitar ????

My normal hour salary times two + strings = 20 K
If you would have read my reply you would see what i mean
LINDENS !!!!! 20 k in LINDENS !!!!!

I dont even earn anything then.
I just have, like you want me too, my expences covered.
Not even talking about replacement when things break down or anything.

You pay tier because you want to pay it,
you hire the staff
and you pay the musicians.
noone forced you to do it.

You say it isnt about us the musicians but to be honest it is.
WE can play anywhere we want on SL.
but your venue without musicians is a pretty boring place.

You want us to entertain you for an hour, if possible drag in people, if possible come up
with new music and to become better, and on top of that pay your tiers and stuff.....

Now that is a good bizz model

Dont get me wrong here.
I see what is going on in SL.
We all have expences, economy sucks yadayadayada

It is not because i dont want to earn money that i dont ask a fee or nag about tips,
if your lucky i might ask to tip the venue, but most times i forget LOL
i dont ask money because i get sick of the discussion about it.
If i ask 5 K ( and still loose money ) then im greedy,
if i ask nothing then i must be a bad musician, the good ones ask a fee,
if i ask 3 K then people say, why dont you ask more ?
If i ask 8 K blablablablabla crapcrapcrap nagnagnagnag

You complain that "we" are only saying things that we allready heard before,
but all your points are the same, that is the problem with this discussion.
It has been chewed on for the last 5 years and everything is allready said about this.
You do what you feel you need to do.

If you dont want to pay or not the amount we ask, then just dont book us ?
the most simple and effective bizz model there is.

/me goes back to the store to buy some more strings to play tips only gigs

owhhh and i hate it when i end up at the other side of a sim and have to walk ( because they disabled flying ) through malls or rentals or whatever to find a stage.

1) i dont shop
2) i am preparing a gig
3) i want to start on time, so i want to be IN the venue at least 20-30 minutes before i go on stage

For the record.. after a heated argument in private over the past 3 hours. I ended up giving Lias Leandros L4000 for her foundation to support live music sponsorship foundation..to help venues and I didn't even get a Thank You.