Live Performers (upfront fee)

Yes, that's lovely for you. But do realize the venue owners are forking over that $500 USD a month. ANd they pay tier and they pay staff. It is not a fair exchange. YOU get all of the money and the venue owner gets all of the bills. WHat Real Life Venue have you performed at that survived under that business plan?

Absolutely not true. The tips go to the musician in most casses. The Venue tip jar is lucky to have $1,000L in it at the end of a one hour live event. So on top of your $5,000L fee you also receiove about a $2,000L (minimum) tip from th evenue patrons.

I belive another reason you don't book your venue is becayse your $500 USD a month would not be yours anymore if you paid musicians.

And how can a musician charge $5,000L to a venue owner and take all of the tips and expect that the venue owner got a fair end fo the deal? There has to be a 'middle ground' established so no one is constantly taken advantage of.

Because these bars sell drinks and make eight times what they pay you. Or you would not get anymore bookings.

But that is what the cafes you perform at use musicians for. If the musicians can help promote getting STORE OWNERS to advertise at these events - then the fees the musician deserves can come from advertisers. Venue Owners support the arts by building the venue, hiring and paying staff, taking time to manage the venue and paying tier. That should be appreciated. Especially by the musicians. Venues are the sole financial supporters of Live Musicians in SL. Accept that. Realize there is a financial strain placed on them when you take all of the cash out of a one hour event and work with them to locate marketing oppportunities to cover those costs.


Agreed your a professional musician in RL. But in SL the business end of your reasoning is skewed Support the SL venues that support your RL.


.

RL venues do the same thing.. but they also pay their musicians. They have waitresses, bartenders, ascap fees, ( which are astronomical ) and yet somehow find a budget to offer their musicians a reasonable fee. YOUR venue alone would not be paying me $500 a month. But I have a healthy list of venues who are happy to pay what I ask and They donot rely on the musician's talents alone to pay for their monthly land charges. That would be poor business planning and a gamble at best.

As far as the tip jar.. I'd be happy NOT to put my tip jar out.. if the venue owners would pay my L5000 that I asked for. There have been several times when the venue owner says. " Michelle, where is your tip jar?" to me. WOW. what does that say about those venues?

QUOTE: And how can a musician charge $5,000L to a venue owner and take all of the tips and expect that the venue owner got a fair end fo the deal? There has to be a 'middle ground' established so no one is constantly taken advantage of.

How do you know that I don't tip back. I go hear live music all the time, and I tip the venue as well. I appreciate their services and providing a place for me to play. But I also have to put a value on my talents and my time. In RL. Venues don't rely on musicians alone to make the profit to pay their monthly bills. Do you have products? Sell them, like bars sell beer. like coffeehouses sell coffee, like art galleries sell art. Festivals sell hotdogs and t-shirts. Don't put the guilt on the musicians back to come up with the full 5000 reimbursement. I would never take "advantage" of anyone. If $20 is gonna break you.. you might want to reconsider wasting your money on SL.

As far as product sales.. If you are gonna use musicians to get them to your stores.. that's great.. but give them what they are asking. I'd like to see you sell your products. Music is my product. It's my commodity. Like clothes, or furniture might be yours. Here's an Idea, put The products need to be near where the music is playing so people can shop and hear the music at the same time.. or not leave the venue to do shopping. Have little vendors near your stage in place of a tree and market it as away of listeners to get something for their money, instead of just donating. I am sure most musicians would agree to forego the tip jar, if they got paid what they are worth then promote your tip jar.. or your vendors. Gosh, ask me to model your jewelry while i'm on stage.. ask me to sit on a fancy stool you made.. I'd be happy to help you with your business... but you have to be willing to help me with mine.

Personally, when it comes to streams. Most musicians have their own streams nowadays. That they fork out the money for as well. But if you want your stream to for music playing in your sim all the time, like shopping radio, then stream costs are not our problem.
Don't expect us to pay for your shopping stream, when we have our own we can use.

I left something out..
The reason I don't have time to book musicians right now, is because I am getting ready to move to Florida because my ex husband had 3 strokes and my kids are down there with all the responsibility and I need all the money I can muster up to move.

Sorry about your troubles Michelle. But even venue owners have RL troubles. I hope musicians realize that and work with us to create a real SL Live Music Business model that supports both the musician and the venue that supports the musician.

.

One more quick note, There have been several times when I went to hear a musician and I couldn't find them. The LM put me right in the middle of a store or the door of a mall. I could hear the musician but i couldn't find his stage. Have a LM meant for the stage, and another meant for the stores. Then have vendors ( kiosks ) near the stage with Main Store LMs. Give the listener the choice of being at the venue or being at the store. With the Kiosk there, they can still shop a little and enjoy the performance. There is not much more frustrating for me than to not be able to find the musician. It tells me how much they value their musicians.

It's ok Lias.. you didn't know. I want you to know that I support venues and other musicians when I can. I realize the importance of balance in the SL music economy. It shouldn't be a venue vs musician thing. It should be united.

Like I mentioned before
Kiosks ( little satellite shop right by the stage ) and have the musician point their direction to it every once in a while. )

Tip Jars I'd be happy to not put mine out, or split it right down the middle, if I got a guarantee of 5K

Just recently I was promised a guarantee, and the venue misguided me. She meant.. In the tip jar. Nice a?

I'm sure we can work together and find a common ground.

It's just sad that the arts are not considered a business or a commodity. Instead, it's considered a tool without much value.

I respect your point and I'm not against the venues making money off my back.. but not when they don't pay me and still expect to make money off my service.

They sell liquor and food Michelle. This is a PROVEN RL business model that supports the musician and the venue owner. What you are touting has been prove to support you only.

Musicians do not help pay venue expenses - they negatively impact those expenses. This is obvious.

That is what we have been saying.

It falls under 'that was fun while it lasted' Once the venue owner can no longer subsidize your RL income without any return he will stop booking live music, probably close the venue and just tier down. While is old clientele still follow you to your next venue and tip you generously on top of your fees. You win. Venue looses.

Michelle Venues DO NOT make ANY income for a Live Performers. That is an acepted fact. What is not accepted is the lack of a workable business model that supports the ENTIRE Live Music scene and not just one party.

A venue owner's business is their venue. They establish that venue and advertise and run it (which you make a profit from). Telling venue owners to learn how to make t-shirts would be as rude as the venue owner refusing to pay you.

That $20 makes is possiblle for you to stay home and not work - so don't knock it.

I am saying that once you accept the fact that the current Live Music 'business model' does NOT create any income for venue owners - and that venue owners are the sole supporter of live music in SL - then you can try to be reasonable and help these venues plan to bring in advertisers to cover the cost of your fees. That is a win-win situation. The current status quo is not.

.

.[/QUOTE] Musicians do not help pay venue expenses - they negatively impact those expenses. This is obvious. .[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't book musician anymore if they are a burden to your economic growth.

.[/QUOTE] It falls under 'that was fun while it lasted' Once the venue owner can no longer subsidize your RL income without any return he will stop booking live music, probably close the venue and just tier down. While is old clientele still follow you to your next venue and tip you generously on top of your fees. You win. Venue looses. .[/QUOTE]

I don't use SL as my main source of income.. do you? As far as tips go, like I said before, I'd gladly not accept tips, if I got my fee guarantee.

.[/QUOTE]A venue owner's business is their venue. They establish that venue and advertise and run it (which you make a profit from). Telling venue owners to learn how to make t-shirts would be as rude as the venue owner refusing to pay you. .[/QUOTE]

I don't know a RL venue who just runs a venue without selling something, to be honest.
and I didn't tell you how to make t-shirts. Most venues in RL take a portion of the ticket sales, ( which the artist still gets his guarantee so they charge on top of what the artists want ) but in SL.. There is no 'ticket sales' or 'cover charges'. That's the hard part. So the venue has to come up with another creative way to help finance their own venue without putting all the pressure on the musician. Be it T-shirts, Shoes, jewelry, furniture, guitars, mic stands, framed art, etc.

I am not knocking the $20.. you are. I'm grateful for it. That's the 5000 i get paid to sing for your existing patrons and your future patrons that I bring in. I'm sorry you have nothing else to offer them but our music, and you have nothing else to make your tier fee on, than our music.

Personally, I don't know why anyone would want to come to SL to start a live music venue, without having some way of financially supporting it, other than pressuring the musician. I can appreciate the love of music and wanting to support it by providing a venue, but equal value needs to be placed on the art, time, talent, of the musician.

Some ideas have been placed on the table before:

Like cover charges.. which were nixed
like paying a stream fee ( kind of like a pay per view channel ) for each listener.
that was nixed too.

so.. how do we both make money?

Ideas Welcomed.. lets hear them.

When Live Music started in SL - musicians used the Second Life platform to promote their RL careers and sell Mp3s. Once they figured out Venue owners loved music so much that they would support it by paying - the musician fees quickly rose to the point where people like you can boast that they stay home because venue owners pay them to do so.

Michelle, EQUAL VALUE. There is no EQUAL VALUE when you take all of the PROFITS from a
live performance.

OK your not a business person. Your an artist. Paying you to sing for a hour in a venue does not help pay that venue's tier. AT ALL. Let go of that misconception. And the 'I'm only worried about how much I can make here' attitude is not really helpful to this subject. We already have several pages of that.


I don't think you read the thread. We are in the midst of setting up the VENUE LIVE PERFORMANCE FOUNDATION. We are partnering with some RL advertising agencies to get the advertisers to pay for the performance fees. That includes giving the venue owner money ALSO.

.

So I'm not allowed to make a living at something I've worked all my life for... but you are Lias? Is that what you are saying? I've busted my ass in RL, cold calling, marketing, posters, performing, driving, recording, and It takes a hell of alot of money to make a CD. Try 10,000 or more dollars to make it radio friendly. Plus radio promotion which is a lot of money and time.. another thing I get to do while staying home. too. Music Conferences and auditions for promoters, radio, agents, etc which costs alot of money. I don't use SL as the only means to provide for my family or to pay for all those things I've mentioned above, but yes.. it helps provide for some of it. Do you think that we musicians just sit and play guitar and write songs all day? Do you think I use second life so I can STAY AT HOME and do NOTHING but charge poor venue owners 5K for my unworthy creativity that I've worked all my life for? When I'm not online, doing gigs, I'm not online much at all. I'm on the phone, I'm talking and emailing venues, sending promo Cd's out...etc. It's an 8 hour day for me. Here's this. I'm on the computer all day trying to line up real life gigs so my family can eat, and have a roof over their head. We pay health insurance out of our pockets.. because we are self employed. Do you know how much that is? Or do you have a DAY JOB that provides that for you? This instrument that I play on is a $3000 taylor 712, I have a $200 condensor mic that I sing through, and the Sound System and the headphones, and the cords and the internet, and the computer, and and and. Like we have no overhead costs ourselves. You may think we have no overhead, but we do. We have to make at least $3500 a month to make ends meet here doing nothing but music. Nope..
If you think you will not make a profit, then you won't. If you sit there and build a venue and pay for it.. but don't have any other means of profit building other than music, than your venue is destined to fail. I realize you have payments to make on your sim, but I'm sorry, the whole monthly cost cannot come from just musicians unless you have full days of free mediocre musicians that you will get a bad reputation for. There are plenty of those out there.


I'm not a business person? My whole life is business. I'm self employed. I have to keep our heads above water, be a booking agent, musician, Mom, wife, taxi driver, telemarketer trying to land us gigs, promoter, sales person, etc. You tell me I'm not a business person, balance the books, balance families, you get my drift. But you know what.. A business person would know the difference!

You're right, I didn't read the whole thread, but I know enough from our conversation that the musician here, is not considered as having had any business training, and therefor shouldn't be valued as no better than a busking peddler. If you wouldn't look down on who the musician is... you might have a better chance.

WELL PUT.. cept for the F word part.. that could be left out LOL

Can you charge and leave the venue owners with all of the bills? Obviously yes. Is it good business or even moral? No.

Do you think venue owners - who maintain tier fees, place classified ads, maintain blogs and websites are just doing this to worship your career? Your reasoning is short-sighted.

Michelle it seems you can only concern yourself with your fabulous equipment and who should make it all affordable for you. As you said to me; if YOU can't afford all of that fancy stuff without being apart of a fair distribution of profits in SL from Venue/Live Musician collaborations - perhaps you should cut back on some of these wonderful items.

How can paying musicians all day MAKE money in SL? Your really delusional if you continue to think this is possible under the current model. Even YOU won't book musicians in your venue (I know your moving - but since your so money-minded; I am sure if it made money you would be doing it).

Self-serving? I guess from a musician's point of view grabbing all the money you can until teh venue goes broke is a good business model.

You still won't involve yourself in exploring a more fair business model and your right - why change anything when you make all of the profit? I see your point clearly now,

.

I can if they are foolish enough to rely on only the musician to pay for their costs. Can you make all the money at your venues and look yourself in the mirror for not paying your musician what they are worth?

Your reasoning is short-sighted.
NO.. I don't promote my own shows? How do you think I get MY fans to YOUR clubs?



Maybe you should cut back on having a venue that you SO Love. Did I not say that I would share my tips with venues if they asked me to? I've never been asked.. and I'm a generous person. Ask any of the people who come to see me... or the venue owners.
When I go hear live music.. I tip both the venue and the artist generously supporting equally venue and live musician. paying the same amount.



No, you're right, I'm Money minded and you're not. You're all of a sudden a generous saint here. I see that clearly now. How much is the skin you have on your back? How much is the hair you have on your head? How much were the textures in your venue to build the venue? Why is my service worth any less? OH.. You can cut back on all those too?

Yall, I've been on SL for over a year, I've provided a service of music an hour a day, two at best. I love to sing and I love to share my stories and interact with everyone who comes to my shows. But just because I love it.. doesn't mean it can't be a business. People tell me when they leave my shows.. their spirit has be lifted and they are leaving with smiles on their faces... I would do it for them for free because they return that positive energy. These are the people who book me and WANT to pay me. The venues come to me because they have heard my shows. I tell them what my fee is and they are glad to pay it because the energy level raises, people are having a good time, the music is top quality, and they have other means to help provide for their venue.. and there is a value on all of that..

Why are you foolish enough to rely on venues to earn you $500USD a month from Second Life?

Michelle, reality: Venues in SL do NOT make money. Paying the musician is definitely money paid from RL income.


Invite your fans to a sandbox - not the same effect is it?



Michelle its not the same amount if you already have $5,000L in your pocket. I mean, come on.

Bought my skin in 2006 and the hair also - not a priority to me. I built my venue myself with friends helping. (useful Tip) If you want to use the answer to a question to prove your point - you need to knwo what the answer is before hand.

How much can I get for positive energy on the Linden Exchange? Stop the nonsense. YOU can effect positive change if you wanted to or were motivate to do so. But if it negatively impacts your bottom line you will not even consider it. Period.

.

/me sighs

I quit reading several posts ago (I'll go back and finish) because I'm hearing the exact same venue versus musician argument I always hear when this topic comes up. I have been hearing this same argument for 2 and a half years now, only back then, the 5k was generally 2k and I still don't understand why it more than doubled when this argument was still ongoing.

Here's a question for both of you.

Why is not the listener, who is the end consumer of both the venue and the musician, being asked to pay? Why is it either the venue opens their real life pocket (because other than escorts and musicians I don't know of many who can expect to make 5k an hour in SL) or the musician sucks it up and goes without pay for the good of SL music?

Why are neither of you asking that question? Now that one, I can answer. Because you both know as well as I do, the end listener won't pay. Before I hear the howling, yes, a handful will (roughly 7-10% of the SL audience tips the house, up to 50% tips the musician). But the majority will not and already complain about incessant "begging" at "free" events.

Come up with answers to that question and you'll have something new to talk about.


Edited to add: I didn't see anywhere in Lias comments where he was talking about *making* money off live music. I have totally stopped paying musician fees after spending well over $10k (usd) on them with no improvement in sight. I still have a venue because I stopped. I book mediocre musicians who play for tips. I also book outstanding musicians who play for tips. And now, all it costs me is my stream fees, the salary I pay my staff, and the tips I pay the musicians. Hmmm, works out to roughly $L100,000 per month. That's without counting my tier or charging for my time. Now, take off about $L25,000 the venue receives in tips and that's just shy of $300 a month it costs me to run a FREE venue. I'm not a musician, but I am a professional too. In SL, I would list my profession as "philanthropist" and part of the job of a philanthropist is determining how to spend their resources wisely.

I have no desire to engage in this argument yet again. I just want to say yet again. Venues aren't complaining that they want to MAKE money, they are complaining that even without paying musician fees, presenting *free* music in SL costs hundreds of dollars a month WITHOUT counting tier.

For the record, I am currently presenting 78 hours of live music per month for that $L100,000. Add the L$5K for musician fees, that's L$390k per month, plus the $L100k that I'm paying now for the same L$25k in venue tips.

Well this thread was dead silent since February when information about the Venue Live Performance Foundation was posted. This rehash from someone touting the status quo does seem redundant. Once the foundation hashes out the details with the Marketing Firm that will be arranging for the advertisers we will have something more to post about.

.

I'm done with this. I have plenty of shows with venues who are my friends. I love them and we have a great relationship. They LOVE music and I am grateful for them supporting what I do. I really don't need this aggravation. I was just trying to make the point of Venues not paying artists anything zero, zilch, freebie, and still asking us to mention their tip jar. That was my whole concern. Sorry this turned into an ugly non caring conversation of music isn't worth anything. Not everyone has to LIKE music, but they can USE it.

And that is the extent of the Venue/Live Musician relationship. Until we effect change and help the venues that support Live Music in SL to share in the profits from Live events.

The Venue Live Performance Foundation may just be able to make that happen. We hope.


.

The only people who have a right to claim they *LOVE* SL music more than myself are the other venue owners who have paid out $10,000 to $20,000 USD, or more, in the last few years to support it while it grows.

Now we're gonna hear about all the time and money you put into equipment and practice and such. I completely respect all that. It would just be nice to have my contribution recognized for a change. Okay, I can't carry a tune in a bucket with handles. That does not have to preclude me loving music just because I won't throw a few extra bucks your way so you can woo hoo about MAKING $500 a month extra money off performing in SL. If you love music so gawddarn much, how come you're not putting YOUR money where your mouth is?

Yes, Michelle, it's likely your "friends" love music as much as other venue owners. It's unlikely you do or you wouldn't be whining about receiving a few pennies from the folks who've done so much and paid so much and receive not even your respect in return.

I agree.. there needs to be some money made for the venue too. I DO want you to succeed. I never said I didn't.

I'll say this one more time.
I'd be willing to split my tip jar 1/2 or not put one out at all

For an hour is still 4-5K for our music.

I'd be willing to model anything you have to sell clothes, jewelry, shoes etc, on stage at my performances and direct them to a kiosk near the stage. Give listeners an option of getting something for their donations instead of nothing, even though they are getting free live music.

I noticed at Six Flags.. there were buttons that triggered the ride for like L10
What if there were buttons that triggered the stream for each listener for like L30 each listener? To help with the cost of your stream payment.?

I don't want to be the one only one who ends up with the all profit, but I also would like to make enough to make it worth my while as well. Both of our times are worth the Lindens equally.
I don't feel guilty for making a living for my family by doing music ONLY for a living. I have a very modest house, and we make poverty levels of income at the end of the year. But I wouldn't give that up for nothing because Music is what I love, it's what I was meant to do, and it's what God has given me to provide for my family.
I have sang for lots of charities and I've given songs for SL CD compilations for venues to sell and make some money on. There's another idea.
Is there anything ugly about this?
Anything greedy?
Anything hateful?
I'm not asking for more.

Now I'm done.

You receiving $7,000L and the venue receiving $1,000L is in no means a 'split'. And as you said - your not willing to give up your $5,000+ the venues provide (even though you know it puts them into a financial hole).

You posted here to complain about venues not guaranteeing you enough tips when they did not pay your 'base fee'. You also complained about landmarks taking you t the venue's shopping area instead of right to the stage (even though you tell us to sell items to make a profit - but not before we direct the audience straight to you).

I think the first thing The Venue Live Performance Foundation needs to do is re-educate some of these Live Performers.

Frogg Marlowe, Astrin Few and a some others from way back can tell you when Live Music in SL was there to promote reallife music. Now it supports real life (somewhat). This has quickly turned from a Live Music 'scene' into a quick money scheme. I use the word scheme because schemes are non sustainable and only profits one party until it implodes. You may not think that it will happen but the ones making the money never do.

So we will continue to change the tide with the support of the Live Musicians that support Venues.

.

I'm agreeing to disagree. We don't have to work together.
I hope you succeed in your SL future and find a brilliant way
to sustain your music only venue.

Venues are for music only. I think your still trying to get venue owners to earn your fees through selling clothes (but you do not want the consumer to land at the shopping area - you want them at the stage where you are first).

Your not willing to even acknowledge the business plan of the Venue Live Performance Foundation. Sadly, there are too many musician like you who just plug-in to cash-in. Perhaps the VLPF can help educate the Live Music Community so we all can move toward a sustainable model (that does not just support you or turn venues into malls).



.

You win. Gosh you are good! Bows, I surrender.