Live Performers (upfront fee)

Because your solution cuts the musician's income by 80%. What we need is a BUSINESS MODEL. Not a turn to panhandling.

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Why are you making decisions for musicians?

Your business is just that - your business, as is theirs. Let them decide how they want to make their money in world?

Their business impacts ours - as is obvious. Some musicians are secure enough to actually speak to a few of us about some models that benefit both parties. Because we are - at the moment - the sole supporter of Live Music in SL - many musicians have began to develop new ways of making an income from us and the patrons of live music. We would like to discuss those ideas. Those that do not want to discuss those ideas do not have to.

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No you aren't the sole supporter - the fans who come to see the musicians are supporters as well.

Not everyone runs a venue as a business, some run it because they enjoy it. I think you are being a little too black and white on this issue.

And some musicians perform because they love it. But this is a discussion about the financial side of the venue/musician relationship.

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No more about how the venue owners business model (for some) doesn't appear to be working. If you contract someone to do work for you.. is it their concern how the rest of your business works?

Lias,
You truly show a bitterness towards SL musicians. It seethes in the words you write in this forum. Which is why I'm sure you DONT have the respect of SL musicians. To get respect, you must give it. Stick to paying your DJs it sounds like that is far more beneficial for you AND for the venue owners that DO work together and for SL musicians alike.

I have, and continue to work with many musicians in and outside of Second Life. There is a difference between paying tribute and a good business model that benefits all parties. None of the well known musicians have wasted keystrokes to post here and say that a more suitable system is an attack on SL Musicians. These people are professionals and are well aware of how business works. No one is advocating cutting into their profits. What was being discussed here is a way to make the Live Music Scene (which is the sole financial responsibility of venues) profitable for both musicians and venues. Discuss.

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Yes, if they are smart. You can keep drinking from a well until its dry. Or you can follow the source of the water and figure out how to keep it flowing.

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A venue for live music, as a business, is NOT a viable model that works at all unless the musicians go tips only. Any model that consists purely of payouts and is dependent on tips is not a sustainable model unless the host is independently wealthy or has something else on the side to absorb the cost.

That's not bitter, that's just simple math. This is what Lias wants to change, but it can't work in this form, not without more income coming in from tips (the fans) to make it worthwhile or fans being willing to pay an entrance fee, like in real life.

But so long as every newbie's dream is to open up their own club, this is not something musicians have to worry about. There will be more golden geese. Until the buzz around SL drops off to the point where new signups and retention are sparse and those willing to open clubs have been there done that, it's not something musicians need to worry about. And until then, we will continue to see ________ Club and Mall open (and close).

ok, Clearly This is a hot topic....My intentions were not to start a massive brawl........

Instead, I would like to get a bunch of you together, Musicians, venue owners and anybody else related to music in second life.....We can discuss these issues in world........

Go on ahead and IM me in here or in World...My screen names are the same.......

My only goal is to improve relations between the two parties..........I am not here to tarnish anybodies SL career.........

Very happy to see the discussion progress. I am also 'doing my part'. I am putting together a virtual foundation to create the funds needed to keep live music affordable for venues. I have set up a office next to one of my venues for the
VENUE LIVE PERFORMANCE FOUNDATION. SL and RL business will be given the opportunity to advertise at series of live performances. These advertising dollars will be used to cover Venue and Performer fees.


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Im booking acts.. Im me inworld if your interested.

Bustys BACKSTAGE PASS

............
-- sim ski resorts.
Motley Crue / SIXX AM Feb 8 12 noonSL

Excellent solution Lias!

Thanks for the thumb's up Eric. I am still setting things up in the SL office. I bought the domain venuelive.org as a gateway for RL companies to take advantage of the marketing opportunities available at SL Live performances.

I am still recruiting booking agents, marketing professional qand back-office staff. But great feedback so far.


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OK From the club owner's point of view.

What do we get from paying you?

A bit of traffic and maybe L$500 in the venue tip jar (most venues will tell you a similar story).

Net result, we lose... We have tier fees to pay, typically from 10kL per month, stream fees 900-2kL per month. So now do you understand why we don't want performers fees being much? most people aren't rich, especially in these hard times. Club owners never make a profit, nor do they ever break even, yet we provide venues for people, paying out of our own pockets. We have RL bills to pay too, and for many of us, it isn't easy, yet performers demand more and more.

We WANT to have live performers. It does help us. But it doesn't help us when we don't get a return on our investment in the performer. Ultimately most clubs close because of this. We don't need to make money, but just cover our costs for the evening. Otherwise why should we bother?

I personally favour the method chosen by 2 performer friends of mine. They place a tip jar out and actually pay the venue 50% of their tips. Why do they do that? They understand that the venue actually has to be paid for. They perform in SL for fun (they make an RL living), and any money they make in tips is a bonus, hence half of that money goes towards the venues that support them. Most RL musicians actually PAY for a venue rather than charging a fee. In return, they get back some of the entrance money charged by the venue.

Is he really?

Venues are struggling right now, they cost money to run, we pay out for performers, see a quick blip in our traffic and it's gone to follow the performer's next performance.

We're losing money here. If you want proof, try running a new club yourself and paying these fees. See what you get back.

It won't even cover the fees you paid!

As someone said, I could run a bot farm for far less.

I don't want to do that. I want to run a club and have real traffic and live performers. I'm willing to take a small loss initally, but in all fairness I have a right to want to break even on costs. I'm not asking for a profit. I just want to cover my own expenses.

Where did he say that?

He actually stated in the post above yours, that their fees would be covered by advertising.

It might actually work.

I would be happy to display an advert prim (as long as it wasn't too obtrusive) and mention sponsors names in text chat if it meant I could have live performers.

I think that the new organization I put together may work. Here is the information notecard I developed for it;

VENUE LIVE PERFORMANCE FOUNDATION

RL and SL Business Owners developing a fair Business Model for Live Performances in Second Life. Venues are the sole supporter of Live Music in Second Life. A new Business Model where Musicians recieve their fees and venues are compensated through advertising campaigns.

Venue Owners, Musicians and Business Owners are welcome to join this group and participate in the open discussion to plan how this system will work best for everyone.

***********************************************************
VLPF MARKETING PLANS

Second Life and real Life Business Owners can customize their marketing plans to best fit their needs. Each package includes:

-Business logo and touch direct teleport and info-giver prim displayed on stage area of sponsored event.
-Business logo and touch direct teleport and info-giver prim displayed on VLPF wall at sponsored venues for one week.
-Business name mentioned to audience at beginning and end of sponsored event.
-Logo on sponsor page of bi-monthly LVPF Magazine (distributed freely at venues).
-Direct teleport slurl to your business on the VLPF website.

************************************************************
-Venues, Musicians and Events are in the process of being added to the network. Please touch the VLPF Newsletter Prim to receive updated information.

MARKETING PLANS AVAILABLE (customizable)

Tier One: 2 Live events within one month: $10,000L
Tier Two: 5 Live events within one month: $25,000L
Tier Three: 10 Live events within one month: $50,000L
Tier Four: Exclusive Sponsorship of 12 Live events: $120,000L

The Performer receives 80%, Venue receives 10% and VLPF receives 10%
The performer agrees to a 50% split of the tip jar with the venue.
**********************************************************
SUPPORTING MEMBERSHIP PLAN $25L A Week (Come and pay the membership Kiosk)

Help Live Music flow freely across the grid. Your membership fees go to fund Live Music events in large, medium and small venues. Supporting Member dues provide a pool of funds to be used as grants for musicians and venue owners to tap into. They can apply to have event expenses covered when no sponsor is available. Venues and Musicians can collaborate and create week-long music events, a new SL musician can apply for funds to pay for a shoutcast stream for three months or a new Venue can apply for funds to build the Live music hall they need.
**********************************************************
Become a member supporting Live Music in SL. Pay your membership dues each month and get:

-Your name on the VLPF Website as a supporting of Live Music.
-Invitations to exclusive performances across the grid.
--Access to the Live Music Forums on the VLPF website.
- Access to posting events on the VLPF website and in the VLPF office.
-Invitation to VLPF Planning Sessions.

MUSICIANS: Join the VLPF Network for bookings. Contact Lias Leandros
*********************************************************
Discuss.


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That looks promising.

I like the fact that the venue gets something out of it, and the performer receives their fair dues.

How big are the advertising prims?

IMO they shouldn't be too big.

I wouldn't make the ads too big. We will use a low-lag notecard giver and have a representative for the advertiser at the event to make sure the sponsor gets their fare share of notoriety. We need to take some more meetings with some SL talent bookers in order to line up a more diverse performing group. I have already connected with many venue owners that would love to be in this network. It doies'nt cost them anything and they get live shows from it. The performer can get booked in many venues and not have to haggle over money.

This is closer to a win-win situation than the status Quo.

Talent bookers please contact us to help further develop this foundation. Thanks


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I will notecard you tomorrow re my venue joining the network.

I think getting with the musician promoters would be a good way to do this. Because some promoters in Second life are at fault for artificially inflating musician fees because they want to have a cut. I have no issue with people getting a piece of the pie. I am a business owner in RL so i know all about making a profit and wanting a piece of the pie too. But I also understand supply and demand, and how to become steady and last for a long time. I am out to help the musicians in the long run. Because the current system isn't sustainable especially in these RL economic times. I know some think that SL's economy is self sustainable and has its own rules. Well, it doesn't. Because if there is no RL money coming in for users. there is no user in second life. and if they are in second life. They are not going to spend a huge amount of lindens to come to their club resulting in less places for musicians to play. Promoters and musicians need to understand the economics are not there for musicians to charge huge fees. Second life is a great vehicle to play and promote music and to tone a craft or just have fun with music. But its not a viable vehicle to maintain a music career that makes a profit. Musicians can even create their own image and career as an Sl only musician. But the market isn't big enough yet to be able to live off of in RL....

To claim you deserve a curtain amount JUST BECAUSE you've done your dues in RL as a musician. Well, I lived on the road for 2 years as a gig musician in real life. Never once did I expect an upfront fee. Not sure how making a club fixes the fee problem either. Cause now you have tier fees to pay. So more then likely your in the red.......

Thanks for Reading!!, Happy playing!!!

JP

Agreed JP. Second Life is not about the status Quo. its about creating cutting edge solutions and supporting creativity from everyone involved. We have definitely dedicated time and money into developing the Venue Live Performance Foundation. Hopefully we can debut something innovative at the Second Life 6th Birthday celebration in June of this year.


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Hi, I'm MichelleD Ecksol and I play with my Husband Scott Dockal. I also do Solo work. I mix up my shows a bit. Sometimes, I will do a full fledged house concert sort of deal where I will play nothing but originals, and other times, I will devote an hour to what my audience wants to hear. In general, they want to hear my originals just as much or more than the cover songs I choose to play.
About my real life music, I am a 2 time Kerrville newfolk songwriting competition finalist 04 and 07, and also Susquehanna songwriting finalist this year. I've toured the country performing at festivals for 5 years and our latest CD " thinking out loud" reached #12 on the international folk dj charts. So I've done music for a living though, either teaching or playing it, for 12 years.
When I found SL. It was a no brainer for me to be able to stay at home with my daughter, not pay childcare, or gas to go to a day job, and still be able to make $500 or more a month playing on SL.
Frankly, I've seen a lot of musicians, in my opinion, that are too good to play on SL, and others that completely insult my musical intellect and they make more money than I do on SL.
As far as the 5k everyone is talking about. Yall know now it's $20 for an hour of FREE music to the listener and the venues recoup some of that back in donations. I charge 5k across the board because I cannot justify charging someone one thing.. and then something different for another venue. Fair is fair. I don't undercut musicians, and being a venue owner myself, I won't accept any tips on a musician's clock, if he wants to play for free for me. I will pay the 5k gladly for a songwriter I respect. I however, don't book myu venue because I don't have the time right now. My venue is a singer songwriter venue. No Covers songs... and all acoustic...
What bugs me, and I feel for all the musicians who have been used, is.. venues who don't pay, but guarantee that their tip jar will reach a certain linden amount.. and yet still accepts tips off the musician's service. I can see if it's a venue who got you started on SL, or if this venue owner is a friend of yours etc...( I have a couple venues like that w/ owners whom i love dearly, ) but new venues that want to hire you, but don't pay, yet insists on you promoting their tip jar at least once throughout your performance. To me, that is obserd. Seriously, How can they guarantee your tip jar to reach a certain amount.

I would like to think of myself as a professional musician here, and I would like to see venue owners look at live music as a support of the arts and Not a way to use musician's talents as a means to product sales. If music is just a tool to get patrons to your store, then pay your musician for their time, talent, and marketing skills. You wouldn't even get a RL musician in your front door for less than $50 in the Real World. BTW, we charge $100 an hour for bars, restaurants, and coffeehouses, and we get it. : )
We've raised our daughter on our music without a day job for 12 years.
I would call that professional musicians. SL and RL.