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Open letter to the owner of slstats.com

Jesse Malthus
OMG HAX!
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 649
08-07-2006 18:57
From: Cocoanut Cookie
In that case, it would make sense to start eschewing people who wear these watches.

coco

There's a caveat though. I can hide a SLStats script in any attachment on my body.
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Ruby loves me like Japanese Jesus.
Did Jesus ever go back and clean up those footprints he left? Beach Authority had to spend precious manpower.
Japanese Jesus, where are you?
Pragmatic!
Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
08-07-2006 18:59
Well, I couldn't tell from Mark's response what happened with this data, but Ceera seems to think it is the reasonable solution. On the other hand, Thorgrim has some good points, too, so . . . I guess I'll just not worry about it, and be happy that the thing is now opt-in. (VERY happy.)

coco
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
Test results
08-07-2006 19:00
I just completed the test, with a volunteer who wore a watch in my presence for more than 5 minutes. I then had him check slstats.com, make a screen-shot, and provide that for me as a 1024 x 1024 texture, with the SL timestamp visible in it. I can state that my name did NOT show up as someone who had seen or encountered him, more than 5 minutes after he met me while wearing the watch.

Yes, it is still concievable that Mark might not actually discard the names that don't match his subscribers, after they get to his server. But they don't show up for his users, either.

I think I would still prefer that participants do not wear these watches in my presence. The added scanning would also increase lag, somewhat, and it still is transmitting my name back to his server in a form that might be intercepted. But I believe Mark has made an honest effort in trying to eliminate the reasons for our concerns.

Yes, I'll forgive him and accept that he has done as he said. However... if that should ever be proven false, I'll be first in line asking for his head on a platter. I will forgive, but will not forget.
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Jon Rolland
Registered User
Join date: 3 Oct 2005
Posts: 705
08-07-2006 19:05
From: Cocoanut Cookie
Well, I couldn't tell from Mark's response what happened with this data, but Ceera seems to think it is the reasonable solution. On the other hand, Thorgrim has some good points, too, so . . . I guess I'll just not worry about it, and be happy that the thing is now opt-in. (VERY happy.)

coco


There is no way of knowing what him or anyone else is sensing transmitting and storing unless they make it public. As far as simple detection of everyone around you radars that do that are a Linden a dozen and usually have 5x the range. Transmitting the data? No practical way to filter the data on SL's side and the more he does to try to do so the more his watches create lag for everyone. The important thing is what he does with the data once he collects it. As it stands unless he displays it we have to go on honor system no matter what we think of his honor. He says he discards it. As long as the data doesn't show up anywhere we have to go with that. All we can monitor is to make sure the site doesn't change to reinclude data from unwilling avi's. As far as we can verify he is currently privacy compliant.
nimrod Yaffle
Cavemen are people too...
Join date: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,146
08-07-2006 19:07
From: Jon Rolland
There is no way of knowing what him or anyone else is sensing transmitting and storing unless they make it public.

This goes for every single person in SL.
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Jon Rolland
Registered User
Join date: 3 Oct 2005
Posts: 705
08-07-2006 19:21
From: nimrod Yaffle
This goes for every single person in SL.


I believe that's what I said. lol
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
08-07-2006 19:25
From: Arctic Fox
Mark,


As for Ranma, never said I was down on you for what you believe. Never said you were down on me. I'm just saying it's up to everyone to decide for themselves and until they decide to waive them they get to keep their rights. That's how fundamental rights work :)


- Arctic Fox


I dont disagree with you, I just wonder how many scripted objects are out there that we do not know about.

Oh, Someone threaten me at Marks store. It has caught my intrest. My problem is I am not a scripter but use to program a long time ago in something called assembly. I wonder what is possible?
Jesse Malthus
OMG HAX!
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 649
08-07-2006 19:28
From: Ranma Tardis
I dont disagree with you, I just wonder how many scripted objects are out there that we do not know about.

Oh, Someone threaten me at Marks store. It has caught my intrest. My problem is I am not a scripter but use to program a long time ago in something called assembly. I wonder what is possible?

Almost much anything, but your solutions might not be pretty. Heck, there's probably not anything you can do with it that'll be pretty.
Assembly? That's *xxHARDCORExx*
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Ruby loves me like Japanese Jesus.
Did Jesus ever go back and clean up those footprints he left? Beach Authority had to spend precious manpower.
Japanese Jesus, where are you?
Pragmatic!
Yiffy Yaffle
Purple SpiritWolf Mystic
Join date: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 2,802
08-07-2006 19:30
From: Ceera Murakami
Lewis,

It appears that the SLStats.com site now only tracks people who subscribe to the service and voluntarily wear the watch. It now says on their site the watch tracks "users" near the wearer, not "anyone".

Yiffy,

You were listed there earlier. Before he locked down the site to member access only, I found you in a search of his site and you had 'encountered' two people wearing the watch. It looked like you were a watch wearer at the time, yourself, though I may have misinterpreted that.

The fact that Yiffy couldn't find herself there now implies that he is purging data from unwilling or optred-out individuals.

That is odd cuz i don't remember getting one heh.
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Jesse Malthus
OMG HAX!
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 649
08-07-2006 19:34
From: Yiffy Yaffle
That is odd cuz i don't remember getting one heh.

It was probably that the two others were weating the watch, and they both "encountered" you
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Ruby loves me like Japanese Jesus.
Did Jesus ever go back and clean up those footprints he left? Beach Authority had to spend precious manpower.
Japanese Jesus, where are you?
Pragmatic!
Ron Overdrive
Registered User
Join date: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,002
08-07-2006 22:09
I think you should just do away with the sensor all together Mark. Since its opt-in only, wich it should have been originally based on how you said it was intended to ONLY record data for registered users, it'd be a bit better on the PR end to simply use a Ping/Responce on a high negative channel. You get the same range without wasting extra resources with a scanner.

Also on a side note, I don't think this is so much a privacy issue as it is that people generally don't like being data mined. Everything listed is pretty much publicly accessable inworld, but in this case it reminds people of spyware. Basicly rule of thumb for situations like these is if you think it can be described as spyware find another way to do what you need or be prepared for public outcry.
PetGirl Bergman
Fellow Creature:-)
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,414
08-08-2006 00:36
From: Flux Woyseck
Yes SLstats.com is strictly Opt-In now, you can all relax now, the threat of the apocalypse is over.


Shouldent this info come from the maker himself? - or are you maybe his alt?

/Tina
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PetGirl Bergman
Fellow Creature:-)
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,414
08-08-2006 00:38
From: Mark Barrett


Kind regards,

Mark Barrett


You animated pic looks very angry to me... hitting what?:-)))

/Tina
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Showdog Tiger
Registered User
Join date: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 404
Questions to Debate with Jesse
08-08-2006 01:11
From: Jesse Malthus
I wanted to make a post like "This is ad hominem attacks 101", but I'll debate each of your points in turn.
1. Who is this woman and how is her reputation sullied?
2. So you call people unreasonable if they don't agree with you?
3. Had you done any kind of research at all, you would see that Mark is not in college.

Good day to you.

Dearly Darling Jesse,

1.) This is obvious. While I accepted the apology of a company employee for an error in judgement, I will find it hard in the future not to question motives of this employee in any written statement. That's tarnished to me, son.

2.) I never said that. I said reasonable people will not believe Mark. The old adage: Once bitten twice shy.

3.) I didn't datamine him to see if he was in school. I implyed that he should go back to college and take some Ethics classes. Science can do some ugly things without being tempered with ethical judgement. He's very smart. I've said that at least three times in various posts. I just don't think he thought this project out very well.

You have a lovely day too!

Ever Yours,

Mrs. Showdog Tiger
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Dogdom Doge
Jon Rolland
Registered User
Join date: 3 Oct 2005
Posts: 705
08-08-2006 01:42
From: PetGirl Bergman
Shouldent this info come from the maker himself? - or are you maybe his alt?

/Tina


Mark has said it I've said it Ceera has said it Jesse has said it and others have said it. SLStats is opt-in only now. I recommend you get an alt get a watch and check for yourself or believe SOMEONE... lol
PetGirl Bergman
Fellow Creature:-)
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,414
08-08-2006 01:47
From: Jon Rolland
Mark has said it I've said it Ceera has said it Jesse has said it and others have said it. SLStats is opt-in only now. I recommend you get an alt get a watch and check for yourself or believe SOMEONE... lol


I will never get that clock or let my worker bee alt get one. No chance. I have people I trust. Some - I will never trust.

/Tina
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PetGirl Bergman
Fellow Creature:-)
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,414
08-08-2006 02:01
/108/90/127653/2.html

Post #52 by Artic Fox - is something all of us shall read....

/Tina
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Pham Neutra
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 478
08-08-2006 03:02
From: Mark Barrett
So just to clear things up: As promised before I have been listening to everything that was said, and taken in that feedback in order to improve and make corrections as to how things should work.

[...]

Regarding the way the watch script functions; it still sensors with a radius of 20m for everyone, but on the server side data from non-users is discarded. I have looked for different methods of doing this, but there's no viable alternative that I could come up with. The two alternatives had been: 1. Send a list of other users to a person who uses slstats and let the sensor scan filter out non-users, but there's not enough memory for that (16k fill up rather quickly). 2. Have slstats users transmit a signal on a channel which other slstats users could pick up, but it leaves open the possibility for users to be discriminated against, which is simply put unfair.
Hi Mark, this sounds like a very reasonable response to the feedback you got.

Please forgive me, when I ask for a little clarification:

You really are discarding all data received on your backend system that refers to users (AV keys) which are not registered users of your platform?


This seems not to be totally clear from the phrasing.

Rethinking the functionality of the new opt-in architecture of slstats I tend to agree with Ron that it is not necessary for the watches to scan at all. If they just transmit the locaton information for watch wearers, the data on "who is near whom" can be determined easily on the server side.

Removing the sensor functionality completely from your product would certainly increase the level of trust and reduce the suspicions from those who care a bit more about their privacy than the majority of the users of your system.
Pham Neutra
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 478
08-08-2006 03:02
From: Mark Barrett
The goal was never to create some sort of of Big Brother project, but to let users record their own statistics for their own purposes.
I hope that no one accused you of trying to become Big Brother. I never thought, that this was your intention.

On the other hand: most of the systems which are slowly transforming many western nations into police states were developed with totally innocent intentions in mind ... :o
aEoLuS Waves
Koffie?
Join date: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 279
Good work Mark
08-08-2006 05:21
Keep up the good work and keep on coding!
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Tiger Crossing
The Prim Maker
Join date: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 1,560
08-08-2006 06:43
Well, I wasn't expecting this thread to stimulate some dusty muse inside me, but...


Because it isn't to you liking,
You just assume its wrong,
And when you put it down in writing,
You sing a sad, sad song.

That half the world's against you,
Though your screams of angst are long,
Should reval a thing or two,
And end your sad, sad, song.
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~ (Nonsanity)
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
what other scripts are out their??
08-08-2006 07:40
From: Tiger Crossing
Well, I wasn't expecting this thread to stimulate some dusty muse inside me, but...


Because it isn't to you liking,
You just assume its wrong,
And when you put it down in writing,
You sing a sad, sad song.

That half the world's against you,
Though your screams of angst are long,
Should reval a thing or two,
And end your sad, sad, song.


I wonder how many scripts are running out there and is there any way to detect them? To make myself clear, I do not think that He was the only resident to make a program like this. How many other scribed objects have been made? Are resident’s security scripts also doing this? You can hide a script like this in anything (how about that teddy bear or slave collar) and there are ways of hiding the script from casual inspection. I know this from "spy" objects left on my land from a certain to be left unnamed griefer.

I have been slandered and threaten by "outraged" residents who have missed the point of my messages. I take grip on my 100kg mallet and take a swing. Again the point of my messages is who else are writing these scripts? What information are they collecting and what are they doing with it. Is there any way to detect these scripts?

Do any of the scripters out they have a way to detect these scanners?
Gregory Perreault
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 1
Mark in his own words
08-08-2006 07:44
Check out slpodcast.com. Has Mark talking about slstats.
Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
08-08-2006 07:49
From: Ranma Tardis
Do any of the scripters out they have a way to detect these scanners?


Not really. You can detect the presence of scripted objects in general, and you can detect the presence of objects with specific names.

You cannot detect what exactly those scripted objects do, however.

For example, your Tarn is a scripted object. Of course, it doesn't collect user statistics......... or does it? ;)
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PetGirl Bergman
Fellow Creature:-)
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,414
08-08-2006 08:15
From: Gregory Perreault
Check out slpodcast.com. Has Mark talking about slstats.


I have listen to it...

....and ”to choose words very very very well” are a well know way in interviews (from both sides) - for the ones of us that work with media.. information.. marketing.


And hi.. Mark you have still NOT answered my IM.. you promised to do that to any that IMed you - in the interview.. it sound so nice...


/Tina
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