Open letter to the owner of slstats.com
|
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
|
08-07-2006 14:16
Sigh, I could care less about the whole thing. So "Big Brother" is watching my every movement? They can have the data on all of the places my avatar visits, all of the people seen, all of the chat logs and IM's. I would call the service "little brother". It is like the person themself took notes on what they did and who they saw.So what does it matter if someone else has a very limited version? Suppose a certain someone would AR me for writing his/her name down on a piece of paper if they found out. Sigh, if someone wants privacy they should unplug the computer and to be safe destroy and trow it away. Then they can go into a deep underground cave and do whatever. Of course Kuma Chan could of left behind a lisenting device and you might of been spotted by a black helicopter What I am trying to say is lighten up! The thought of privacy in this type of enviroment is at best silly.
|
Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
|
08-07-2006 14:19
If you're not bothered about it, why are you posting?
|
Niamh Flanders
Registered User
Join date: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 35
|
08-07-2006 14:28
From: Ceera Murakami It appears that the SLStats.com site now only tracks people who subscribe to the service and voluntarily wear the watch. It now says on their site the watch tracks "users" near the wearer, not "anyone".
I'm not so sure Ceera. Having reread the current statement on the site, users could mean "users of the watch" but it could also refer to SL users. It's still not clear and I'm not for trusting this change until I see some proof.
|
Samm Squeegee
I fight for the Users!
Join date: 3 Jan 2006
Posts: 8
|
08-07-2006 14:31
From: Niamh Flanders I'm not so sure Ceera. Having reread the current statement on the site, users could mean "users of the watch" but it could also refer to SL users. It's still not clear and I'm not for trusting this change until I see some proof. You, of course My Dear, speak for us both But I am a little curious.. I understand entirely the want and need for privacy and am appauled LL would allow this to be done, however, what exactly could they do with this info? They can get my Av's name from someone with a watch near me.. ok.. Will I suddenly get spam in my IM's? If I do, then that is a clear violation of the TOS, I would report it and LL (we would hope) would then take the necessary measures. Can they get any RL personal info? If I have it on my Profile, sure.. but then that is available to all in SL and if I want to keep that private, I better not put it there.. If they can get info OTHER than what is on my Profile, then I can see some real legal issues. Take personal info from OTHER than in world SL profiles and such.. Big problem On the other hand, when I think about it more, the privacy issue becomes a big deal. Everyone comes to SL for different reasons. Where I go and who I am around during that time is my business and the ones around me at that time only. YOU dont need that information. There are other ramifications as well but because I yell at CNN whenever they report on things like troop movements to anyone with access to a TV, I am not about to give the enemy ANY information...
|
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
|
08-07-2006 14:43
Such uncertanties are precisely why I intend to test my hypothesis with a watch user tonight. I already opted out - there should be no record of me in that database at this time. The alt that I have on Orientation Island has never been to the mainland, and should never have been exposed to one of the watches (unless a mentor wore one to the Island, which I doubt). I had planned to seek out Yiffy, but she says she doesn't have a watch. But I know at least one other person on the site's posted list of users of the watch. Someone who has posted to the blog feature on the SLStats site, and therefore MUST have subscribed to the service. I'll try to test it with her.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
|
Arctic Fox
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 9
|
08-07-2006 15:59
From: Ranma Tardis Sigh, I could care less about the whole thing. Ranma, that's your right to decide for yourself. You don't care? Cool. MY choice is to care about infringement of my fundamental right to privacy both as an individual and as granted under Linden Labs' Terms of Service (TOS). No, I do not think the commies are coming nor do I own a tin foil hat (and all this in spite of having served in NATO during the time when there were in fact a whole bunch of Soviets on the opposing side - but that's another story  ). How useful the data is and what potential use it could be put to isn't the issue. If you couldn't care less that's your right. I conversely could care a whole lot less but my opinion is worth no less than yours. My right to decide for myself, without having that decision made for me by some third party to suit their purposes, is what matters. Waive your right if you like: that too is your right. I'm keeping mine on mere principle. - Arctic Fox
|
Maklin Deckard
Disillusioned
Join date: 9 Apr 2005
Posts: 459
|
08-07-2006 16:01
From: Ordinal Malaprop If you're not bothered about it, why are you posting? So he can be oh-so-cynically cool as he rolls over and plays dead rather than protect his privacy? Just my translation of what he said, for what its worth.
|
Pixeleen Mistral
the strange
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 253
|
08-07-2006 16:27
It appears that the SLStats database has been scrubbed of everyone except some 292 users. Or at least that is all you see if you get a watch and log into the SLStats site. I used to appear in the service, and I am no longer listed (at least in the database that you can get to by logging into the site). While my alt can log into the SLSTats site, that poor alt can't find an opt-out option there anymore, but.. if my alt can find one of those opt-out objects, there will be 291 users.
Someone else ought to experiement to confirm that the fangs have been puleld from this service, but it looks like they have.
THis still leaves important questions for the Lindens about there position on spyware and 3rd party data mining. This will not be the last one of these things.
|
Maklin Deckard
Disillusioned
Join date: 9 Apr 2005
Posts: 459
|
08-07-2006 16:37
From: Pixeleen Mistral It appears that the SLStats database has been scrubbed of everyone except some 292 users. Or at least that is all you see if you get a watch and log into the SLStats site. I used to appear in the service, and I am no longer listed (at least in the database that you can get to by logging into the site). While my alt can log into the SLSTats site, that poor alt can't find an opt-out option there anymore, but.. if my alt can find one of those opt-out objects, there will be 291 users.
Someone else ought to experiement to confirm that the fangs have been puleld from this service, but it looks like they have.
THis still leaves important questions for the Lindens about there position on spyware and 3rd party data mining. This will not be the last one of these things. ONLY 292 USERS?!?! That slimy little...ahem...that master marketer was, earlier in the thread, acting as if he had massive support among players....and after all this he has a mere 292 watchwearers? He really, really needs a good dose of truthfulness.
|
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
|
08-07-2006 16:39
From: Ordinal Malaprop If you're not bothered about it, why are you posting? Why because it does not bother me and want to let other know this.
|
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
|
08-07-2006 16:49
From: Arctic Fox Ranma, that's your right to decide for yourself. You don't care? Cool. MY choice is to care about infringement of my fundamental right to privacy both as an individual and as granted under Linden Labs' Terms of Service (TOS). No, I do not think the commies are coming nor do I own a tin foil hat (and all this in spite of having served in NATO during the time when there were in fact a whole bunch of Soviets on the opposing side - but that's another story  ). How useful the data is and what potential use it could be put to isn't the issue. If you couldn't care less that's your right. I conversely could care a whole lot less but my opinion is worth no less than yours. My right to decide for myself, without having that decision made for me by some third party to suit their purposes, is what matters. Waive your right if you like: that too is your right. I'm keeping mine on mere principle. - Arctic Fox Hmmm I am going to have and recheck the meaning of I. Never in my message does it say that you dont have the right to a sense of privacy. Please read my message again  I just wonder if privacy is really possible in SL?
|
Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
|
08-07-2006 16:57
From: Nyx Divine No, use that link Artemis provided and it will give you the location in-world. There you will find a box to buy and then rezz and touch to answer questions in order to opt-out. The box is gone.. he must have removed it. I was with someone who had opted out today and she came to show me where it is and it's been removed. Bah. put it back.
|
Flux Woyseck
Registered User
Join date: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 62
|
08-07-2006 16:57
Yes SLstats.com is strictly Opt-In now, you can all relax now, the threat of the apocalypse is over.
|
Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
|
08-07-2006 17:23
From: aEoLuS Waves Ofcourse you say this as a "person" and not as a Lindenlab representative? Please: If you have a problem with Torley then dont use this board to state that (hidden in your message:"without appearing to be at war with Torley, which I'm not"  . You as a Linden representative should know better then bashing Torley in public. Why not have a normall conversation first with her/him (and mabey the rest of LindenLab) and then fight it here in public? Dont you Lindelab employees have company rules about this? I dont think for one minute Hermia was attacking/bashing Torley and i think its great that Hermia has posted here and acknowledged that their is a difference of opinion at the "Office", so to speak  How boring it would all become if we thourght the same  For me this thread has become a great debate with some sensible exchanges bar one or 2 and i hope that Torley will come join us as well, because this is a serious issue that does concern us all and i hope that from this thread some sensible long term plans can be put into place bearing in mind this great place will see some amazing changes over the coming months  So lets try to keep this thread about the issues and not turn it into yet another "He said this and they said that" type of thread and leave the personal stuff out of here and debate this as the adults we all purport to be  Peace
_____________________
Independent Shopping for Second Life residents from established and new merchants. http://slapt.me  slapt.me - In-World HQ http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastet/123/118/26
|
Temeraire Thunders
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 22
|
Relax My Dragon Tail!
08-07-2006 17:26
I just took a SL fixture...furniture, hangbags, house designer, landlord in Brown to his site to opt out.
GUESS WHAT?!
There's a traffic meter and NO OPT OUT BOX!!!!!
I filed an AR. This is really ****y! AND poor Torley has damaged her reputation all for nothing!!! Nothing!!! Nothing!!!
No man is ever to be trusted!
Date Dragons!
Tem
|
Pixeleen Mistral
the strange
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 253
|
08-07-2006 17:28
From: Flux Woyseck Yes SLstats.com is strictly Opt-In now, you can all relax now, the threat of the apocalypse is over. except that the watch is still the same version as before, so it is still scanning and sending info about all avatars in proximity to the database. You just no longer get to see that.
|
Mark Barrett
SLbuzz.com Curator
Join date: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 27
|
08-07-2006 17:28
So just to clear things up: As promised before I have been listening to everything that was said, and taken in that feedback in order to improve and make corrections as to how things should work.
Having initially started out as a wide-open everybody-is-included project, I had per recommendation immediate added an opt-out feature. Since that wasn't good enough (what is this, post #436 in this thread?) I've continued to make the appropriate changes and added checks to ensure only actual users of SLStats are kept statistics for. In other words, it is an opt-in system now.
Regarding the way the watch script functions; it still sensors with a radius of 20m for everyone, but on the server side data from non-users is discarded. I have looked for different methods of doing this, but there's no viable alternative that I could come up with. The two alternatives had been: 1. Send a list of other users to a person who uses slstats and let the sensor scan filter out non-users, but there's not enough memory for that (16k fill up rather quickly). 2. Have slstats users transmit a signal on a channel which other slstats users could pick up, but it leaves open the possibility for users to be discriminated against, which is simply put unfair.
I believe I've made a good faith effort to come to an acceptable solution and I hope that this will please and appease everyone.
The goal was never to create some sort of of Big Brother project, but to let users record their own statistics for their own purposes. I hope that the decision to make SLStats an opt-in tool demonstrates that.
I would have liked to have been able to create anonymous statistics (for example, ratio of verified vs. unverified users, average ratings by age) but there will still be people that would object.
For those that *do* use SLStats, I want to add more control over their data and how much they want to reveal to other users (or the public eventually): Online status, displaying their position with mapping, the ability to reset and clear their stats, a better way of social networking, Web-to-SL instant messengers, An API (xml, csv, something) would all be optional but, in my opinion, much more interesting features than a thousand contacts on someone's profile page that they have next to no association with.
So, I think we all learned a little something, and I hope that this post clears up any confusion. My sincere apologies for the mess and distress.
Kind regards,
Mark Barrett
|
Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
|
08-07-2006 17:50
From: Torley Linden Hi, I'm revisiting this thread as requested. Again, I humble myself before the community and I am sorry for any misunderstanding.
Can I please be forgiven? Thank you for ur honesty and great post and i should read all the thread before posting in future  None of us are perfect and mistakes and misunderstandings happen well they do to me lol im glad that this thread has turned into a very interesting debate about this whole issue of privacy online especially as we see SL going through some cool changes as it evolves again, and people are rightly concerned and i hope that the way this thread has gone will ensure that future projects like this that impact us all in some way, will be openly discussed in here on the forums and then players concerns can be addressed here and hopefully a bettter model worked out that will then be supported by more people. Peace PS: Do ya no any good prefab builders 
_____________________
Independent Shopping for Second Life residents from established and new merchants. http://slapt.me  slapt.me - In-World HQ http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastet/123/118/26
|
Showdog Tiger
Registered User
Join date: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 404
|
Good Faith
08-07-2006 17:52
Dearly Darling,
You should be greatful that God has not given me the power to pull down lightening. First and foremost your "experiment" has sullied the reputation of a lovely woman. Secondly there's not a reasoning Avatar that would believe a thing out of your mouth for future research. And last, you lost some sleep doing what homework you should have done in the first place. I am praying you are still in college so that you can take some ethics classes.
Ever Yours,
Mrs. Showdog Tiger
_____________________
Dogdom Doge
|
Joannah Cramer
Registered User
Join date: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,539
|
08-07-2006 18:02
From: Mark Barrett 2. Have slstats users transmit a signal on a channel which other slstats users could pick up, but it leaves open the possibility for users to be discriminated against, which is simply put unfair. Discriminated against in what sense? I mean, you are talking of voluntary decision to wear attachment which occasionally speaks on specific channel and that's it. Not unlike certain AV bodyparts. As long as the system of collecting data is like you say limited just to people who volunteered to be part of project, there's less reason one would want to discriminate such watch owners than there is to discriminate against prim penis users (since unlike said bodyparts the watch is thank gods quiet in local ^^;; ) On semi-related side note, leaving the whole data gathering issue aside... found that live blog feature pretty interesting. Not that i'd use it, but figure it can have quite an appeal to people, to be able to send things straight from SL. o.O
|
Arctic Fox
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 9
|
08-07-2006 18:09
Mark, As I'd professed earlier so long as the system's strictly 'opt in only' I've no issue with it. Thanks for making moves to make good with the community. My earlier wording suggestions were meant simply as an idea to make crystal clear what the latest version of SLstats.com does. I'm not a 'be all end all' by any means but iRL the corporation who employs me has me write their briefs, disclaimers, limitations of liability, etcetc. Sometimes being a bit *too* clear can actually work in your favour  As for Ranma, never said I was down on you for what you believe. Never said you were down on me. I'm just saying it's up to everyone to decide for themselves and until they decide to waive them they get to keep their rights. That's how fundamental rights work  Miranda rights are a good example. One person may close their mouth when the cops start asking questions and simply answer everything with "I want to talk to my lawyer." Another person in an identical situation may talk the cops' ears off, tell them their life story, etc. Either way the person arrives at a conscious decision first and acts on it. Until the Miranda rights are waived the cops have to respect them. The notion that every person in Second Life has the right to decide for themselves how they want their personal info gathered and used by a third party, irrespective of how useful/sensitive the information actually is, remains the right which must be respected. Kudos to Mark for effectively acknowledging that. Oh, and Mark? Can't say for sure yet since I haven't seen one up close but since your watches only track the consenting wearer I may check one out. Sounds like a nifty lil' gadget. - Arctic Fox
|
Jesse Malthus
OMG HAX!
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 649
|
08-07-2006 18:11
From: Showdog Tiger Dearly Darling,
You should be greatful that God has not given me the power to pull down lightening. First and foremost your "experiment" has sullied the reputation of a lovely woman. Secondly there's not a reasoning Avatar that would believe a thing out of your mouth for future research. And last, you lost some sleep doing what homework you should have done in the first place. I am praying you are still in college so that you can take some ethics classes.
Ever Yours,
Mrs. Showdog Tiger I wanted to make a post like "This is ad hominem attacks 101", but I'll debate each of your points in turn. 1. Who is this woman and how is her reputation sullied? 2. So you call people unreasonable if they don't agree with you? 3. Had you done any kind of research at all, you would see that Mark is not in college. Good day to you.
_____________________
Ruby loves me like Japanese Jesus. Did Jesus ever go back and clean up those footprints he left? Beach Authority had to spend precious manpower. Japanese Jesus, where are you? Pragmatic!
|
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
|
08-07-2006 18:11
Thank you Mark, for actively listening and for doing the right thing. I will accept your statement that you are no longer storing and making public information on anyone who has not agreed to wear your watch as quite sufficent to ease my own privacy concerns. And I was one of the more vocal opponents of your original methods. For now, I will limit any further involvement to making one independant test, to have a current watch user verify that my presence is not displayed on your site, ten minutes after I approach them.
As an experienced programmer myself, I will agree that there is no practical solution to where to discard non-subscriber data other than at the server end. It would be irrational in the extreme to send complete user lists to the watches. I will support and endorse your choice as the only rational way to still allow your service to work. While it does present some possibility that the data transmitted to your server might be intercepted and misused, that is far less of a risk than the previous situation.
The alternative, of having the watches do a ping and response, does indeed have the possibility that wearers of the watch could be detected and discriminated against. It woundn't be hard to find out what channel they talked on and to scan for and act on such signals. To be honest, if you had not acted to make the system truly opt-in, some method of identifying and detecting those watches would likely have become a priority project for one or more people here, so the wearers could in fact be banned from certain areas if the watch was detected and active. To my mind, that is no longer at all necessary, as it will only record and display those who knowingly volunteered to share their data.
One last question for you, however. I have heard at least one person post her that he got a watch, and no longer wants to participate. Can you clarify what a current subscriber must do to leave the project and be eliminated from the database?
Kindest Regards, Ceera Murakami
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
|
Thorgrim Coalcliff
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 15
|
08-07-2006 18:27
From: Mark Barrett So just to clear things up: As promised before I have been listening to everything that was said, and taken in that feedback in order to improve and make corrections as to how things should work.
Regarding the way the watch script functions; it still sensors with a radius of 20m for everyone, but on the server side data from non-users is discarded.
Kind regards,
Mark Barrett Sorry I am not as forgiving as Ceera - you are still collecting data on everyone, you only SAY you are discarding it - frankly after the way you handled this from day one I don't believe you. Nothing I can do about it but my preference is LL remove all the watches from in world and make a definitive statement about their policy on the issue - you opened the floodgate by doing it and even if you are being truthful without some LL policy on the issue someoneless scrupulous will recreate your effort its not that hard to do. LL doesn't want to explain what my rights are regarding this I just lose out on what as I said before - I perceive to be something potentially exceptional
|
Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
|
08-07-2006 18:51
From: Pixeleen Mistral except that the watch is still the same version as before, so it is still scanning and sending info about all avatars in proximity to the database. You just no longer get to see that. In that case, it would make sense to start eschewing people who wear these watches. coco
|