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Open letter to the owner of slstats.com

aEoLuS Waves
Koffie?
Join date: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 279
08-07-2006 08:19
From: Chronic Skronski
I don't think this was Hermia's intention at all. I read it as showing respect for Torley and not wanting to argue over a difference of opinion - but wanted it known that there IS a difference of opinion. This is the farthest thing possible from a "bash", I think it was very civil.

And I still think Torley should revisit this thread.


Nah, this about LindenLab, their TOS and their rules...
If they cant get their own crew to talk together before releasing their opionions everywhere.. well then this is how it goes... Ofcourse I respect both of their opinions (as fas as I know them).

Torley is right, its great stuff.. Hermia's is right because it has an ugly face...

Dont care what I want to say, or you want to say about this topic, its time LindenLab speaks its mind here.

Because we all know that many ppl here will release their own trackers just because they can.

Mabey the term Bashing is a bit hard.. I am not from your part of the world. But we do read through the lines that Hermia is not standing behind Torley.
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Nyx Divine
never say never!
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,052
08-07-2006 08:23
From: aEoLuS Waves

Dont care what I want to say, or you want to say about this topic, its time LindenLab speaks its mind here.


I agree, and since, as someone posted elswhere, that SLstats is now down as of this morning does that mean LL HAS spoken? We may never know for sure.
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Jack Harker
Registered User
Join date: 4 May 2005
Posts: 552
08-07-2006 08:34
From: aEoLuS Waves
Ofcourse you say this as a "person" and not as a Lindenlab representative?

Please: If you have a problem with Torley then dont use this board to state that (hidden in your message:"without appearing to be at war with Torley, which I'm not";). You as a Linden representative should know better then bashing Torley in public. Why not have a normall conversation first with her/him (and mabey the rest of LindenLab) and then fight it here in public?

Dont you Lindelab employees have company rules about this?


Maybe they just disagree on an issue?

Why are *you* trying to blow this up into a big deal?
Maklin Deckard
Disillusioned
Join date: 9 Apr 2005
Posts: 459
08-07-2006 08:42
From: aEoLuS Waves
Nah, this about LindenLab, their TOS and their rules...
If they cant get their own crew to talk together before releasing their opionions everywhere.. well then this is how it goes... Ofcourse I respect both of their opinions (as fas as I know them).

Torley is right, its great stuff.. Hermia's is right because it has an ugly face...

Dont care what I want to say, or you want to say about this topic, its time LindenLab speaks its mind here.

Because we all know that many ppl here will release their own trackers just because they can.

Mabey the term Bashing is a bit hard.. I am not from your part of the world. But we do read through the lines that Hermia is not standing behind Torley.


She shouldn't HAVE to stand behind Torley. Torely was rude and dismissive of player concerns while being a cheerleader for Mark's site. Hermia was quite wise to distance herself from this lack of professionalism.

Plus its nice to see at least ONE linden that is not a tech woo-woo (ie. the kind of person that is for anything new, just because its new and high tech) willing to flush privacy concerns as dismissively as Torely did.
aEoLuS Waves
Koffie?
Join date: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 279
08-07-2006 08:46
From: Jack Harker
Maybe they just disagree on an issue?

Why are *you* trying to blow this up into a big deal?

Because ist more importante what they say then what you (or me) is saying here about this topic ..
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Jack Harker
Registered User
Join date: 4 May 2005
Posts: 552
08-07-2006 08:59
From: Zoe Llewelyn
Worse yet, I have a friend who recently had to leave SL for good. Her ex-husband was planning to use her associations, groups and other information from SL against her in a custody battle. This sort of site and information makes that sort of harrassment, manipulation, and abuse all that much easier to do.

There are as many reasons why someone would not want their social network tracked and placed on a public site as there are people. All the concerns are valid. In the majority of cases, yes, these stats may be mostly harmless, if annoying to those who like privacy. But this is also information that is very useful to people wishing to stalk, harrass or otherise make life hell for some people too. In a system that most do not even know about, can not even opt out of or object to because they have never even known they were being tracked...it stinks of something Orwellian.

I personally couldn't care less what the site says of me or my social network. But many people do care, and have very, very valid reasons to care...many of which can even be serious real life concerns. Harrassment and stalking by spouses, former lovers, and other such situations is far more common that you may think. Dismissing those concerns is foolish and insensetive.

My own personal reason for disliking this "service" is the attitude of the owner, the attitude Torley expressed in her statement about it (which I found dismissive and offensive. There are a million reasons one might dislike or disagree with this site Torley and not a one has anything to do with being "unfamiliar with technology";), and the attitude of it's supporters.

The world id far less black and white than so many want to believe. Try not to stumble too much in your blindness to the existance of other points of view...



Indeed, my own reasons for objecting to this is because I *am* familiar with technology, and net abouse issues in particular.

Spam on Usenet, spam over e-mail, weblog spam, web spiders, agregarting data gained from cookies, tracking bugs, etc., etc. It's an issue I've been *quite* familliar with and which I've been following and dealing with for the last ten years.

Dismissing people who have issues as simply being "unfamiliar with technology" is something I find rather insulting and condecending. Not everyone who uses SL is a clueless noob who just got their bright, shiny new computer and ventured, wide-eyed and empty headed, onto the information sooper-dooper highway.
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-07-2006 09:04
Note: Slstats.com is off-line now. The site's gone. Either he took it down, or he's being subjected to a DDoS attack that is locking everyone out. The servers are refusing connections.
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Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
08-07-2006 09:19
From: Ceera Murakami
Note: Slstats.com is off-line now. The site's gone. Either he took it down, or he's being subjected to a DDoS attack that is locking everyone out. The servers are refusing connections.


Dharma sucks.
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Jesse Malthus
OMG HAX!
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 649
08-07-2006 09:39
From: Ceera Murakami
Note: Slstats.com is off-line now. The site's gone. Either he took it down, or he's being subjected to a DDoS attack that is locking everyone out. The servers are refusing connections.

My money's on server problems, because SLBuzz.com, Mark's profile site, is down too.
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
08-07-2006 09:58
Hi, I'm revisiting this thread as requested.

First off, I wish to deeply apologize if what I said earlier about SLstats.com was read as any sort of a specific endorsement, neither on my part nor that of Linden Lab's. It is *not*. If wasn't clear, I'm making it clear here, so I beg for forgiveness. Something I'd also like to share: I am pretty direct when it comes to showing direct approval for something, so I won't skirt around the issue.

While I'm an optimist, I'm also a realist. Infact, if you know me well, I'm also quite a cynic. And because of my roots in cyberpunk, I'm also quite cautious when it comes to tracking and collecting data without my knowledge.

I received many understanding emails and IMs about the topic at hand from a variety of perspectives--so second, I'm not dismissive of any privacy concerns. I'm enthusiastic about new technologies to enhance the Resident experience, but at the same time, I would never, ever want that info used in a rude way that would dampen my enjoyment, and frankly, make things suck.

I have a secret alt life of my own. He makes prefabs, he is happy. I don't want to be tracked. Whenever concerns like these come up for Resis, it's important that time and energy allowing, I immerse myself as deeply as possible to know what is going on.

And... it only makes sense that I am continuing to listen to what's going on to gain a better understanding. I don't want to jump to conclusions, and this is very ongoing, so there isn't any sort of "final definitive statement"; nor will it be, as previous Second Life privacy debates have been.

What I will make clear is Linden Lab has our own strict privacy policy about customer info, and I follow it rigidly. I also know that should unscrupulous means be used to harm Residents via data unconsensually collected, we'll do our best to investigate and help.

I simply wish to learn from the experiences of others, and be a Linden<--->Resident bridge for communicating important issues--issues like this.

Again, I humble myself before the community and I am sorry for any misunderstanding.

Can I please be forgiven?
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Duntroon Donburi
Registered Noob
Join date: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 129
08-07-2006 10:01
From: Torley Linden

Can I please be forgiven?


/gets out his whip
prepare to be forgiven!

;)
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-07-2006 10:15
I'll forgive you Torley.

But I still want to see an official Linden ruling on whether this third-party data mining is acceptable. The site still says that anyone wearing one of these watches will collect data on ANYONE in a 20M radius, every 5 seconds, and that data is reported back to the SLStats site and displayed there for SLStats users to access freely. Not just people who opted in by wearing these watches, but EVERYONE, without consent. He does not even MENTION the opt-out option, nor that those who used his opt-out cubes in-world are supposed to be excluded from the database. The ability to opt out of being listed by his spyware is not listed on his site at all.

I contacted him by IM, used his cubes, and opted out with this account and every account that I own. If I walk up to a watch owner and have them check, and if my name shows up as standing near them, I damned well am going to abuse report Mark Barret daily until that name is permenantly removed. I DO NOT CONSENT to his tracking who I walk within 20 meters of. PERIOD!
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Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Summer Carmichael
UNVERIFIED REGISTERED
Join date: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 326
08-07-2006 10:58
3
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Summertime is a nice time.
Summer Carmichael
UNVERIFIED REGISTERED
Join date: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 326
08-07-2006 10:59
2
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Summertime is a nice time.
Summer Carmichael
UNVERIFIED REGISTERED
Join date: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 326
08-07-2006 10:59
1
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Summertime is a nice time.
Summer Carmichael
UNVERIFIED REGISTERED
Join date: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 326
08-07-2006 11:00
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Summertime is a nice time.
Jack Harker
Registered User
Join date: 4 May 2005
Posts: 552
08-07-2006 11:06
From: Ceera Murakami
Note: Slstats.com is off-line now. The site's gone. Either he took it down, or he's being subjected to a DDoS attack that is locking everyone out. The servers are refusing connections.


It's back. :(
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-07-2006 11:10
Sadly, yes, it's back on-line.
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Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Showdog Tiger
Registered User
Join date: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 404
Accepted
08-07-2006 11:14
Dearly Daring Torley,

I too accept your appology.

However, I do believe in the old adage: Once bitten twice shy. In your next staff meeting you might want to hob nob with your fellow wizzards about adding a statment to the next update: Should activities like this continue, LL will take action against any person violating TOS concerning Out-world third party disclosure. If you click continue to download SL and persons have clicked that little square... there's not an ignorance of TOS excuse.

Ever Yours,

Mrs. Showdog Tiger
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Dogdom Doge
Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
08-07-2006 11:22
I gotta smile here. Two of the "Top Residents" for hours played this week are known land swoopers. :)
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Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
08-07-2006 11:24
From: Jack Harker
It's back. :(

Does anyone have a watch to check whether the opt-out is working or not?
VolatileWhimsy Bu
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,492
08-07-2006 11:24
From: Cindy Claveau
I gotta smile here. Two of the "Top Residents" for hours played this week are known land swoopers. :)


is it the two that were already pointed out?
VolatileWhimsy Bu
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,492
08-07-2006 11:25
From: Ordinal Malaprop
Does anyone have a watch to check whether the opt-out is working or not?


i believe that Ceera Murakami said they had sent a msg, but has yet to receive a reply or the item.
Joannah Cramer
Registered User
Join date: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,539
08-07-2006 11:27
From: Ceera Murakami
If I walk up to a watch owner and have them check, and if my name shows up as standing near them, I damned well am going to abuse report Mark Barret daily until that name is permenantly removed. I DO NOT CONSENT to his tracking who I walk within 20 meters of. PERIOD!

I checked it yesterday, and it appears only those who actually joined the slstats project (and didn't then opt out of it) are listed as people the watch owner comes within chat range of.

Which is, if i may note, not the same thing as not being registered as contact in the first place, but a step in good direction nonetheless.
Rickel Petion
Registered User
Join date: 6 Jan 2006
Posts: 58
08-07-2006 11:32
Thank you Torley for clearing up the part of this mess you were mistakenly involved in, ofcourse we forgive you. Nobody is perfect all the time and all make mistakes now and then, it is how we fez up and deal with them that shows what kind of person one is. You have my continued trust as the Linden<->Resident bridge. Again, thank you for clearing this up.
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