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Open letter to the owner of slstats.com

Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
08-07-2006 11:42
From: Artemis Fate
http://slstats.com/site/optout/

Here's how to opt-out of the stats .


Do I have to register on the site in order to opt out?
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Nyx Divine
never say never!
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,052
08-07-2006 12:05
From: Ingrid Ingersoll
Do I have to register on the site in order to opt out?


No, use that link Artemis provided and it will give you the location in-world. There you will find a box to buy and then rezz and touch to answer questions in order to opt-out.
_____________________
Yes Virginia there is an FIC!

If someone shows you who they are.....believe them!

Don't be afraid to go out on a limb, because that's where the fruit is!
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-07-2006 12:07
From: Joannah Cramer
I checked it yesterday, and it appears only those who actually joined the slstats project (and didn't then opt out of it) are listed as people the watch owner comes within chat range of.

Which is, if i may note, not the same thing as not being registered as contact in the first place, but a step in good direction nonetheless.

The information on the "how it works" page was changed today. it now says the watch scans every 5 seconds for "users" in chat range (20M), and reports them. Not all people. So it appears he has finally backed down and is no longer capturing data on all people who get too close. That makes it a true opt-in system, is it only tracks people who purchased the watch and agree to wear it. In that case, he has modified it so it no longer violates the TOS by distributing spyware.

It now says:
From: someone
At regular intervals (usually every 5 minutes) the watch script sends your name, key, location (including region name, position, rotation and velocity), the current time, the time passed since the last update, and a list of residents you've met to this web site. How does it know who you've met? Every 5 seconds it scans the regular chat range radius for users, which are then counted in.


What it used to say, as of earlier this morning:
From: someone
At regular intervals (usually every 5 minutes) the watch script sends your name, key, location (including region name, position, rotation and velocity), the current time, the time passed since the last update, and a list of residents you've met to this web site. How does it know who you've met? Every 5 seconds it scans an area of 20 meters (30 meters before version 1.8) for people, so that means anybody who's in regular chat range counts.
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Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Wrom Morrison
Validated User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 462
08-07-2006 12:16
First of all Torley, thanks for your reply. ::: GROUP HUG :::

From: Ceera Murakami
The information on the "how it works" page was changed today. it now says the watch scans every 5 seconds for "users" in chat range (20M), and reports them. Not all people. So it appears he has finally backed down and is no longer capturing data on all people who get too close.


What does "users" mean in this context? Is he refering to users of SL or users of his client? I feel it's still too vague and we can't just guess from that word alone that he's not taking info on all users vs his customers.

But if he is indeed doing a restriction on the watch using people then he has kinda killed the spread and data gathering potential of the watch (his actual intentions).

Can libsecondlife be used to figure out what exactly is being sent from this watch to that website?
Arctic Fox
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 9
08-07-2006 12:25
From: someone

Every 5 seconds it scans the regular chat range radius for users, which are then counted in.


A helpful suggestion for SLstats.com if they are indeed restricting their reports only to those users who have 'opted in' instead of monitoring everyone who happens to be in a spywatch wearer's vicinity:

"Every 5 seconds it scans the regular chat range radius for users, which are then counted in only if they have registered to be part of SLstats'com's project."

As I've mentioned in this thread I've no issue whatsoever with people who make a conscious choice to be part of a data gathering project. *I* might join such a thing so long as it leaves those who haven't joined alone and respects their privacy.

That is the whole issue in my eyes: the fact any such decision affecting my privacy is exclusively mine to make.

If indeed SLstats.com is being or has been changed to a 'user opt-in service only' that respects the privacy of others by default I apologize for having called the company and its creator 'unscrupulous' and 'inconsiderate.'

- Arctic Fox
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-07-2006 12:32
From: Wrom Morrison
First of all Torley, thanks for your reply. ::: GROUP HUG :::



What does "users" mean in this context? Is he refering to users of SL or users of his client? I feel it's still too vague and we can't just guess from that word alone that he's not taking info on all users vs his customers.

But if he is indeed doing a restriction on the watch using people then he has kinda killed the spread and data gathering potential of the watch (his actual intentions).

Can libsecondlife be used to figure out what exactly is being sent from this watch to that website?

Comparing the earlier and current text, I think he must have accepted the suggestions that I, and I am sure many other users, made to him to make this a truly opt-in system, that only counts watch wearers.

I fully intend to test this theory when I get on-line again, by approaching a known watch user with this account, which I know has opted out, and then with an account that I have still on Help Island, which I know has NOT opted out and could never have encountered a watch wearer. Neither of those two accounts of mine are now or ever have been watch users. That will require bringing that new account to the mainland when I wasn't ready to play with her yet, but it will let me verify both cases. If, after 5-10 minutes of chatting with a watch-wearing friend, neither of my accounts can be found by my friend in the website, then we'll know he's made it truly opt-in, and those of us concerned with our privacy can rest more easily.

If, on the other hand, EITHER of those accounts does get scanned and recorded, then I will AR him immediately for a TOS violation, for distributing spyware in SL.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Joannah Cramer
Registered User
Join date: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,539
08-07-2006 12:37
From: Ceera Murakami
The information on the "how it works" page was changed today. it now says the watch scans every 5 seconds for "users" in chat range (20M), and reports them. Not all people.

Well, "users" and "people" mean the same thing to me, especially when it refers to "a list of residents you've met" as opposed to "list of other participants in the project" or something like this ^^; i don't think the way information is gathered has changed, because that'd most likely require new version of the watch, with the filter feature built in... and nothing like this apparently took place, the system still uses v2.5 watches.

This is obviously just guessing, though.
From: someone
If, after 5-10 minutes of chatting with a watch-wearing friend, neither of my accounts can be found by my friend in the website, then we'll know he's made it truly opt-in

No, it will only mean there is no publicly available information about your account not equipped with a watch. But determining what exactly is being sent by the watch would require some poking around its internal working. o.O
Nyx Divine
never say never!
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,052
08-07-2006 13:03
Ceera I'm glad that you are willing and able to conduct this experimant. Please keep us informed.
_____________________
Yes Virginia there is an FIC!

If someone shows you who they are.....believe them!

Don't be afraid to go out on a limb, because that's where the fruit is!
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-07-2006 13:15
From: Nyx Divine
Ceera I'm glad that you are willing and able to conduct this experimant. Please keep us informed.

I will. I would like to believe that Mark has seen the sensibilty of the concerns of the many people who have expressed them in this and other threads on the topic. I would like to believe that he did not consider the harm that his illicit data collection might cause - that the 'gee whiz' factor of all the fascinating data that he might collect and the fact that he could do it overwhelmed any other considersations for him. If he has in fact ensured that the service only tracks those who willingly wear the watches, then I have no trouble with it at all.

I'm not some technically ignorant member of the 'tinfoil hat brigade', who is afraid of microphones in the potted plant. I'm a professional computer scientist who has been writing code longer than some SL main-grid Players have been alive. But I am also fiercely willing to defend my privacy rights and those of others. This isn't a perfect world, and certainly there will always be those who will abuse other's privacy. But if all you do about that is roll over and play dead, then they win, without a fight. And I believe that my own rights are worth fighting for.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Jesse Malthus
OMG HAX!
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 649
08-07-2006 13:33
From: Wrom Morrison

Can libsecondlife be used to figure out what exactly is being sent from this watch to that website?

As a libsl dev/afficionato/evangelist, I can say that we can do nothing of the sort, since everything happens on the sim-side.
_____________________
Ruby loves me like Japanese Jesus.
Did Jesus ever go back and clean up those footprints he left? Beach Authority had to spend precious manpower.
Japanese Jesus, where are you?
Pragmatic!
Yiffy Yaffle
Purple SpiritWolf Mystic
Join date: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 2,802
08-07-2006 13:40
From: Ceera Murakami
So Yiffy, you're OK with having the name of every griefer that gets within 20 meters of you listed as one of your friends? You're happy to tell anyone and everyone how many hours you're logged on each day of the week? I thought you had more sense than that.

Don't wear that spying contraption anywhere near me, Yiffy. I've opted out, but I don't want your 'harmless toy' collecting data on any of my friends.

I do have more sence then that. O.o i just didn't know it did that. I choose not to get the watch. Thats why i used a alt account to get one to test it.

I can understand how you would be frustrated by this cuz i would be too. But don't assume i chose to be associated with griefers cuz you know i wouldnt have joined ALL the grief prevention and security groups for nothing. >.<
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-07-2006 13:51
From: Yiffy Yaffle
I do have more sence then that. O.o i just didn't know it did that. I choose not to get the watch. Thats why i used a alt account to get one to test it.

I can understand how you would be frustrated by this cuz i would be too. But don't assume i chose to be associated with greifers cuz you know i wouldnt have joined ALL the grief prevention and security groups for nothing. >.<

Yiffy dear, I know how much you detest griefers. That is why I mentioned that. Before the most recent (apparent and yet unproven) changes to the watches, a greifer hovering over Serenity Woods for an hour or more, and within 20 meters of you or someone else wearing a watch, would have been listed as that watch wearer's 'friend' - even if they spent the entire time shooting at each other and trying to cage each other.

Glad to see my sometimes silly friend has sense when it counts!
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Yiffy Yaffle
Purple SpiritWolf Mystic
Join date: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 2,802
08-07-2006 13:55
I checked if i showed up on that site and my name isn't thank goodness. I think the only way that your location can be tracked is if your wearing the watch or possibly someone else is wearing it near you. I know how easy it is to script a mapping tool that connects to SLURL.com and points you to someones location.

This is one thing i would be against. It violates privacy. I choose not to wear the system unless that function is removed. If you wish to use a system similer to this that doesn't map you, try slprofiles.com and download their software. This is what i use.

However with saying all that, i do like the IDEA behind SLStats. Allowing people to know your online or choosing not to. I would prefer it to be a download though. The more scripted attachments the worse your lag is going to be.
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Yiffy Yaffle
Purple SpiritWolf Mystic
Join date: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 2,802
08-07-2006 13:57
From: Ceera Murakami
Yiffy dear, I know how much you detest griefers. That is why I mentioned that. Before the most recent (apparent and yet unproven) changes to the watches, a greifer hovering over Serenity Woods for an hour or more, and within 20 meters of you or someone else wearing a watch, would have been listed as that watch wearer's 'friend' - even if they spent the entire time shooting at each other and trying to cage each other.

Glad to see my sometimes silly friend has sense when it counts!

Oh. Well that wouldn't be good. I would prefer it to be consentual. Like the current Calling Card system works.
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
08-07-2006 13:58
Am I missing something, or has the opt out page disappeared?

Lewis
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Jesse Malthus
OMG HAX!
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 649
08-07-2006 14:01
From: Lewis Nerd
Am I missing something, or has the opt out page disappeared?

Lewis

With no need to opt out (since it's now opt-in only) I suppose it's gone because it's vestigial.
_____________________
Ruby loves me like Japanese Jesus.
Did Jesus ever go back and clean up those footprints he left? Beach Authority had to spend precious manpower.
Japanese Jesus, where are you?
Pragmatic!
Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
08-07-2006 14:03
OK, just getting back into town, and just finding out about this horrible thing, am I correct in assuming that we no longer need to out out? But now will have to opt in? So therefore, I need do nothing?

coco
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Jesse Malthus
OMG HAX!
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 649
08-07-2006 14:06
From: Cocoanut Cookie
OK, just getting back into town, and just finding out about this horrible thing, am I correct in assuming that we no longer need to out out? But now will have to opt in? So therefore, I need do nothing?

coco

Yep.
_____________________
Ruby loves me like Japanese Jesus.
Did Jesus ever go back and clean up those footprints he left? Beach Authority had to spend precious manpower.
Japanese Jesus, where are you?
Pragmatic!
Niamh Flanders
Registered User
Join date: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 35
08-07-2006 14:07
From: Nyx Divine
No, use that link Artemis provided and it will give you the location in-world. There you will find a box to buy and then rezz and touch to answer questions in order to opt-out.


I can find the watch but not an "opt-ut box". :/

ok, so apparently we supposedly don't need it , but I don't trust that after all that's gone on about it today.
Nyx Divine
never say never!
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,052
08-07-2006 14:07
From: Jesse Malthus
With no need to opt out (since it's now opt-in only) I suppose it's gone because it's vestigial.


Forgive me if I don't take your word for it and wait till Ceera does her lil experiment
_____________________
Yes Virginia there is an FIC!

If someone shows you who they are.....believe them!

Don't be afraid to go out on a limb, because that's where the fruit is!
Jesse Malthus
OMG HAX!
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 649
08-07-2006 14:08
From: Niamh Flanders
I can find the watch but not an "opt-ut box". :/

It should be over on the steps to the building (IIRC)
That is if Mark didn't take it out, I'm not sure.
_____________________
Ruby loves me like Japanese Jesus.
Did Jesus ever go back and clean up those footprints he left? Beach Authority had to spend precious manpower.
Japanese Jesus, where are you?
Pragmatic!
Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
08-07-2006 14:09
From: Jesse Malthus
With no need to opt out (since it's now opt-in only) I suppose it's gone because it's vestigial.


That is good news. Having been away for a few days, I don't feel like trawling through 28 pages at this time of night.

Lewis
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Nyx Divine
never say never!
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,052
08-07-2006 14:10
From: Niamh Flanders
I can find the watch but not an "opt-ut box". :/


Hmmm when I went it was in the doorway of a structure. But that was a week ago maybe.

Maybe just maybe that is no longer necessary because he has truely made it an op-in program now and thus has removed the box.

Only time will tell.
_____________________
Yes Virginia there is an FIC!

If someone shows you who they are.....believe them!

Don't be afraid to go out on a limb, because that's where the fruit is!
Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
08-07-2006 14:10
Thanks, Jesse.

I, too, will be awaiting the results of Ceera's experiment.

coco
_____________________
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-07-2006 14:11
Lewis,

It appears that the SLStats.com site now only tracks people who subscribe to the service and voluntarily wear the watch. It now says on their site the watch tracks "users" near the wearer, not "anyone".

Yiffy,

You were listed there earlier. Before he locked down the site to member access only, I found you in a search of his site and you had 'encountered' two people wearing the watch. It looked like you were a watch wearer at the time, yourself, though I may have misinterpreted that.

The fact that Yiffy couldn't find herself there now implies that he is purging data from unwilling or optred-out individuals.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
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