Complaints About Dwell/Money Chairs

I would absolutely do it. I would do it for me.

But I like developing for customers, I like marketing, I like user experience... This is all stuff that's fascinating to me. Those parts are fun. Guaging the success of all of this requires me actually taking the thing to market and making a profit. Which is fun, too. I like watching sales patterns, examining trends, all that stuff. And I like working for months and getting paid afterward.

But my reason for doing it isn't exclusively the money. It's...

It's hearing "Your siegeBot is my favorite object." That is incredibly rewarding. But I couldn't afford to spend all that time making it worthy of that praise if there wasn't financial reward involved too. My inspiration comes from fanatics like Steve Jobs and Jonathan Ive, who doubtless have a lot of fun seeing their creation come to life in the perfect order they imagined.

Getting paid for something you love to do, and do really, really well, is an entitlement that is not to be abridged or impugned.

Moopf, I've explained it to you enough.

Creating a product is not content creation.

Creating an environment that includes that product *is*.

There's a difference. And I'm not going through it again with you.

That is absolutely not yours to demand. It is not anyone's to demand.

But now that you see that I have, in fact, been doing this all along, what say you to me?

Your own words, JarJar.

You finally found an opportunity. Lucky you.

I say run all the way to the Lindex, JarJar. It's evident that you don't really care about helping to make opportunities for anyone else. So be it. That's your style, your personality -- except of course when it's you whining and waving around the stacks of big-ass Linden $$'s wanting to advertise your product.

And I've explained several times that I believe you are talking utter bollocks.

Like it or not, making products is content creation. It is creating content for Second Life. You just seem to wish to pretend that it isn't because that's the only way you can compartmentalise it and thus discard it for the purposes of your, well, crusade I guess. Because if you didn't do that then you wouldn't have been able to rail against the product makers so easily, would you, which this thread does seem to be primarily about.

What did you do when you were active? There's no point in asking what you do now, you've already indicated you don't know what to do. Why are you focusing your criticism on people who have and are willing to try to do stuff? examine the efforts they made and come up with some ideas on how to make it work.

Umm hi. I'm completely new to the game but I really like alot of it. I did alot of stuff for the Sims and Morrowind so the idea of SL really catches my eye.

Regardless this thread caught my eye because I am new..and the only things availible to me really as a new girl to the game were to either

1.) Camp in a chair

2.) Dance in a club

I personally chose dancing, because its what I've always done and it has a special place in my heart. The social aspects of it are also great and the club I work in is a very relaxed and no pressure enviroment.

But I wanted a job. I really did. When I got here the first person I met was very nice to me....in fact everyone has been, but when I asked what I could do to start establishing myself...I was taken to a camping chair and told that was pretty much it short of dancing/escorting.

I'm not complaining...I love to dance. But dancing puts me in no position to learn the skills I might need as an independant content designer some day...as far as the scripting systems and vendor management is concerned (content and prim design I'm pretty sure I can handle since I already do most of that outside of the game).

And when I looked for jobs in the Find feature...there were like...16 listings and none of them were employment related.

An economy is based on education, education which creates goods and offers services, right now...without being privately taken under the wing of an existing player..there is no system of hands on education....because there are no jobs managing stores (and theres thousands of stores) for larger businesses, there are no design jobs in engineering and architecture groups. Theres nothing really being offered by the establishment to the new player except freebies and money chairs/trees.

I didn't show up wanting freebies. I showed up looking to make my way in this world on my own two feet, unfortunatly the only availible options put those feet in a money chair, or wearing as little as possible while dancing in a club.

The original poster has a point. The economy does seem to have a missing link. And the link is jobs that not only create money in the economy....but job training which prepares new players with the in game skills they'll need to create more money for the economy.

I could be wrong...of course, I've only got five days of experience. But by and large....as a woman, I only had two options...and I'm afraid men probably have one less than that in many cases.

Don't mean to speak out of turn...of course...just adding a perspective.

Moopf,

*You could have hired individuals to host and hold events on your sim.*

You chose not to.

*You could have created a skating rink...*

You chose not to.

It's not bullocks. You could have, if you wanted to... have created more compelling content for your products and in turn (for lack of better words) hired individuals to do the work for you under your sponsorship.

You chose not to.

Bullocks to you.

You sell a product. It's not end-user content. It's a product.

Right. But beating at the heart of all this seems to be the belief that "me having fun is better than you having fun, because the things I think are fun are better than the things you think are fun." For any other form of having fun, you wouldn't expect to be paid so that you can do it.

"But my fun is better because it contributes to the world". Ok, but the folks sitting in camping chairs, I think, are contributing to the world too: they're creating the "camping club" sub-society without which non-creative newbies would feel inferior and envious. You can say "well, they ought to feel that" but that's failing to budget for fleeing in your economic model again.



You might think not. But I know plenty of people IRL who have that happen on a regular basis. I have a friend who's a brilliant 3D artist but has struggled for money because the higher-ups who control the distribution pay him low knowing he can't get anywhere without them. Same thing happens with scripts in SL (did you see the thread about Combat Foo? How'd you feel if somebody posted a message saying that they wanted a SiegeBot for free, it 'sucked' there was no free SiegeBot, and then someone offered to build them one for L$50?) The same thing will begin happening more and more in SL as attracting "investors" becomes critical to success. Still want to model SL after the RL economy so much?

Ahhh, well thanks for not bothering to get my point. People who come to SL unwilling to spend any money on tier or through the exchange do nothing to help SL's future or provide incentive to those residents who work hard at providing them with engaging content. People who want "skilling" and other mindless repetitive tasks as a way to make money obviously don't understand what SL is about or how it's structured and would most likely be much happier in TSO since it would satisfy their expectations of a "game" which is obviously what they're looking for. That's not what SL is or what it was ever intended to be and whining about expectations that will never be met is unproductive, annoying, and something I personally can do without. I can also do without lectures from people about what I should be doing to make SL better for others from someone who has done nothing herself except run off to play WoW.

I created the clothing templates that make it easier for new designers to get started, and that are used by the majority of designers in SL which I give away for free to people who will likely end up competing with me. Yeah, I'm all greed. So, what have YOU done besides bitch, Lynn?

No, I donated a whole sim to a group to create something for 6 months.



Wrong again. I have an ice skating pond setup on my island Alchera.



So now you want the product content creators to also provide the environments, monetary support and everything else. Otherwise we're not valid content creators? Cuckoo Cuckoo.



You're a stuck record aren't you. It is Second Life content that the end user uses. What are you finding so difficult to understand here?

I give up. I'm not even sure it's the same person behind the Lynn Lippmann avatar. Is that Catherine Cotton I can see peeping over the keyboard? When did you get so angry with the people that try to create interesting stuff for people to have fun with.

That seems to about sum it up. Also, apparently people who enjoy shopping and dressing up their av aren't engaged in an acceptable pasttime and aren't making use of real content. That's good to know. I'll be sure to start telling my customers that they're not actually enjoying themselves in case they're not aware of it.

Touche', but this wouldn't be helping the basic account holders sitting around on the land. This would just help the landowner. People, generally, are greedy sods, and wouldn't want to inconvenience themselves (by making their computer a spammy bot for hours) to help another, unless there's a non-monetary benefit to it.

Flipper's idea is a really good one; sadly it'll never be implemented.

Nice try Chip.

Again, you don't quite get it. SL (like the internet) needs to be for everyone if it's going to succeed.

Having it filled with people of your condenscending attitude would only drive more people away. There is nothing wrong with people coming into SL to simply *enjoy* the talent that is found here. But then again, you probably never go to the movies since you are so skilled that you can make your own. You probably never purchase a CD for simple enjoyment since you're such a talented musician. Can you get the relevance to that and your comments about "unskilled" individuals not being needed in SL? Your comments are an embarassment to this community.

Unfortunately this game is based on money, it's not based on sheer talent. There are many many talented individuals who cannot afford even the monthly tier fee. But by your own accounts, send them all to TSO, let them work on mindless tasks, and never experience the beauty of 3D design and work -- they are not worthy to view let alone own any of your creations. All hail King Chip. Talent comes in many categories, Chip. Social skills being one of them. See, social people llike to wear pretty things, even in 3D. You create those pretty things for the social people -- yet you spit in their face because you feel they don't have the talent expectations that you feel they should have. What a great way to advertise your business and your product.

From what I read about SL, it was to be the metaverse -- a blending of people... A blending of people with many different ideas for collaboration. But in your own version, only the graphically talented would have the priviledge to participate here.

You did that template about two years ago. Yes, you posted it on the forums for free. Yes, you answered some questions about it on the clothing forums. So basically, you've stated that your only community contribution in the three years here in SL has been the free template. (That's been updated by Avalon and their crew, by the way, along with more detailed instructions on how to use it.)

You whine and cry about "handouts" -- as many here have stated, they are not looking for handouts -- they are looking for an opportunity. Put yourself in their shoes, Chip. You're the new kid on the block, not the guy from beta who got some publicity and lucked out getting his foot in the door first. Look around you at the very talented individuals coming in the door who are creating products now that are giving you some very stiff competition. Imagine yourself being the new kid on the block. You can't. You're far too involved with "your way" to see a different view.

As I asked you before, when was the last time you hired a model for your clothing versus getting all femme'd up and taking your own photo's? Ever think of maybe hiring someone to take those photo's for you? You know, giving back to the community that has given you the opportunity to succeed so well? Oh wait, you gave us the template (that's outdated) two years ago. For shame, we shouldn't ask for such time-consuming handouts from such a busy and important business person such as yourself.

I won't answer your snide comment with another one. Congratulations on showing your true colors on how you feel about SL and it's inhabitants. I hope every newbie reads what you truly think of them, and I hope they walk with their feet and their wallets. After all, this is still a free economic society, or are we only to pursue your capitalistic ways?

Unfortunately, you have to just stop earning money for a bit while you're learning the skills. Consider it a startup stake, if you like. And be reassured that you don't have to spend anything on food and nobody cares too much what you wear in the sandbox.



Fly over to NCI. Plenty of folks there are very keen to help newbies who want to learn to build!

Originally Posted by Moopf Murray
So now you want the product content creators to also provide the environments, monetary support and everything else. Otherwise we're not valid content creators?

Moopf, you're an intelligent man.

Please stop with the snide comments.

I'm asking why would you not consider doing that? You've answered that you think it's too much work. A fair answer. But please stop with the low-ball comments, as I've already lost respect for you.

Please go back to creating skates and wonder why no one wants your vendor near their skating rinks. I think you need to work on that idea a little while longer.

Lynn, thanks for the extended pesonal attacks. Very enjoyable. I'd reply with exactly what I think about you and your remarks but I'd rather not get banned from the forums. Nice ton of baseless assumptions. I'd guess you know where I think you should stuff them.

Newsflash: I don't have to justify myself to you, but for the sake of argument, I will. Let's see, what else have I done... I have the New Designers store in Aqua that provides free space for new designers to help them get exposure. I taught classes for a long time. I still update my templates. The most recent versions are a year old, not two, and they're about due for another update. I've sponsored events, provided prizes for events, gifted promising newbies with money to help them get started. I've covered tier on other people's sims that were in danger of closing due to lack of funds. I've loaned money to people to start big projects. I answer questions in the forums. I help people one on one who ask for advice about av texturing and other things. I hire scripters. I have someone who's going to be doing my box textures for me as soon as I have time to put together some stuff for them. But I guess on top of all that, and the 20-30 hours per week I've spent developing products and providing customer service for the past two years, I should do more to satisfy you. A thousand pardons for being such a greedy slacker!

I'm sorry Lynn but I'm trying my hardest to grasp where your anger and bile are coming from towards product content creators and I'm starting to think you're just off on one and product content creators are your pet hate.



Then you obviously didn't read my response, where I did say I'd done that. Blimey you're more blinkered than a race horse. And for some reason, it's really not bothering me that you've lost respect. Your opening torrent on this thread pretty much told me that, as I'm a product creator, you have no respect for me anyway.



Really? Nobody wants my vendor near their skating rinks? Maybe you should take a look around the world then and report back when you find my ice skate and roller skate vendors near nearly every roller rink and ice rink in SL. If you're going to throw such rubbish around, at least get your facts right so you know what you're talking about. You consistently seem to be ignoring them when they come into conflict with your single-minded rally call against the product creators and how they're abusing the social user of SL.

You're right Lordfly. You tried a flame but you failed.

Reference post # 82. Your reading comprehension skills could use a little work as well.

Probably because I'm in a good mood right now. Give me about 7 more hours on campus and I'll get back to ya.

Do you think consumers don't know that too?

Do you think consumers don't judge the fact that others can get infinite money for finite work as part of the fairness of the system?

Don't you think that maybe some of them think, "if they get infinite L$ for finite work, why shouldn't I get infinite L$ for finite US$"?

There is is Moopf, your own words that hiring people in SL is more hassle than it's worth to you.

As I stated earlier as a compliment to you -- you had put back more into SL than most individuals. Evidently that went over your head and you decided to reference me to Catherine Cotton. All I'm asking is that some creators give back to the community -- please reread my posts. But evidently they're not truly ready to help sponsor the economic growth in SL by hiring individuals, sponsoring events, etc.

I did misread your comment back to Margaret about your skates -- she was referencing charging for the event and splitting the money. Your reply in itself without her question reflected that you tried place them around SL and failed.

But if you can't understand the difference between creating products and creating end-user content, that's not my problem. No anger was directed to you, only my frustration that you can't understand the difference. And that's not my problem. Part of the problem is that you're not comprehending what I'm saying. You would prefer to try and flame me, aka Catherine Cotton. Doesn't work, Moopf, you can try to insult me better than that.