Complaints About Dwell/Money Chairs

Well, let's also assume, that on average, you have 3500 people IW at any given time. I am just tossing out a number that seems about average from the #s I see. Let's say 1000 of them are trying out the free account. Out of those 1000, 700 decide they like it enough that they want to _at least_ have the ability to own a 512 plot. So, they go to the account page and click on sign up for monthly membership. Right there, Linden Labs has earned themselves 7k extra a month, this isn't even counting those that decide they want more land etc.Now, out of those 700 people, let's say you have 200 that decide that they want to try to create content and go into business, or buy more land, increasing their tier and rent it out to earn more money. You still have 500 people that are paying Linden Labs 5k (together) a month to run around, socialize, buy content, sit in money chairs, provide dwell to businesses etc etc.

Unfortunately, as much as we would like to idealize it, as SL grows, so must LL grow. This means overhead costs of employee wages, electricity, office equipment, including top of the line computers etc. Even with only 10% of those 700 people going to forums, that's an extra 70 people in forums, increasing the amount of moderation needed to be done. All of these things cost money. Without that money coming in, LL would not be able to provide the arena for the content creators to use, for the clubdwellers to hang out and socialize, for the Barbies and Kens to play dress up, for those exploring sexual avenues to explore said sexual avenues. So, I believe that in the end, even those that do not create content are integral to SL's survival.

Also, as people have stated in here, what about texture uploads? or even just picture uploads for those that want to pass around neat pics or funny pics? What if someone is trying to survive to create content on 9.95 a month? Some people don't have the ability to go pay 50 to 100 dollars to ensure that they have the means necessary to upload their textures, create their content, find rental spaces, in other words, start their businesses or create their unique builds. If money chairs give someone the ability to upload a few extra textures, even if that's only 10 out of 20 people using it, isn't in the end, that actually benefiting the content area of SL?

That being said, I don't necessarily think that money chairs are the way to go on earning a few extra L. However, as Lynn pointed out, until alternatives are presented, they will continue to exist.

To me, Ingrid's SLOG post and subsequent comments point to a fundamental failure in Second Life. These avatars are trying to earn money, and camping chairs are simply the easiest way to do it. If someone comes up with something even easier, avatars will flock to that as well. I've heard plenty of stories like the one Sensual related above. People don't want to be maids and janitors in SL. Everyone here wants things to be better, brighter, and blingier than in real life.

About a week ago someone came up to me in Midnight City and asked if I'd like to buy any "rave objects." She was selling them to save up to buy an avatar. I wasn't particularly interested in buying anything, but I asked how much the avatar was. She told me, and I just gave her the money to buy it, trusting she wasn't going to spend it on booze and crack. She was very grateful, asking if I was sure I wanted to do that, and then zipped off enthusiastically to buy her shiny new outfit.

I gave her the money because I couldn't imagine why not. Was I supposed to teach her a sound fiscal lesson by buying one of her products and thereby demonstrate that the SL economy was a thriving, rewarding experience for young and old alike? Should I have shown her that through hard work and dedication she too would one day be able to make her avatar look the way she wants it too?

Fuck that. Skip the ditch digging. Go play with the cool shit. That's what SL is about. For a couple of dollars I made someone's week, and they get to go out dressed in their nifty new avatar and have fun and get excited about SL instead of trying to hawk secondhand glow sticks and dance bracelets to people who don't want or need them. (And in a way her initiative was rewarded...no one sitting in a camping chair is gonna be in any position to pry my hard-earned L$ out of me.)

I'm not advocating handing out money to anyone who asks, and I'm not saying that people should give away their products (after all, the creator of the avatar in question got paid a good fee for their product). I just think that we in SL sometimes grip our money too hard, and take this misfit economy too seriously, enough so that we make people make their avatars sit in one place for hours on end to earn their pittance.

Too often we find ways to make SL echo the drudgery of real life, when we should be discovering the ways that it's different from our day-to-day existence.

I am not against money chairs, tringo, slingo, duces wild or any other "newbie" ways to make money. That is exactly what I think of those things as, newbie money makers. At one time I had a different oppinion, until I went to some of these games and not only met some cool people, but I had fun on occasion.

Still, a part of me does have a concern. When I first started, we didnt have such things to make money. So this forced me to spend time learning to make money the old fasioned way. I learned how to make stuff. I see less and less new people learning how to be a "content creator". So I have mixed thoughts, yes it is good we have a good flow of "consumers" joining our community, at the same time part of me is concerned that less and less people will find out what a great creative tool SL is.

As far as your question on hiring people, I have recently hired someone to help people out in my shop and handle some customer service stuff. It has worked out good so far.




Well said.

Pol I am sitting here nodding my head all the way.

Personally I am stuck in the middle I think. I WANT to make something, be something. So I recently went out with thie "cool" idea I had for a hud attchment. Nevermind that every proramming class I have taken I have failed and all my years at attempting to drawl resulted in nothimg more then dungeon maps, or that my poser skils which I had tried earlier resembled a mangled body. I was gonna do this and push through it.

A week passed and I was banging my head, two weeks passed and I went homocidal almost. I then remember WHY I came here. TO avoid stress, to sit back, relax, go OHHH and AHHH at things and to enjoy myself. So after a long talk with a good friend and my scripting friends getting ready to check me into a loony bin I stopped the dream of the HUD attachment. I also re-evaluated my other "jobs" here in SL and am in the process of tearig those down as well. This became a job that I came to so that I could enjoy this fun world. Yes makes about as much sense to me as probably it does to you, it makes no sense.

TO those that CAN make things and excell that's great but I see the arguement trying to be made here is this. If every club owner, clothing maker, land baron, etc stopped hiring people to do things then the sales of all products would suffer. Many, but not all, of content providers here in SL seem to sell and never buy. When they do buy it is to other content providers.

In the long run yes you can buy and sell L$ but think about if there was no "escorts", event hosts, or games. Just clothing designers, scripters, builders, animators, and the like that require expensive programs to learn and make things with. The economy would go down and your sales would suffer.

Offer ways to give back and things return to you.

Another thing that bothers me about SL is the lack of "creative assitance." I came into SL and was like HOLY &*(^*&^ this is cool! Oh man that means I can do *rattling off a list of ideas*. To which I was told to hush and be quiet.

The impression that was forced on me was "Build it yourself or never mention it". The reason being if you do not build it someone else will and you won't get jack for the idea you gave them. Since them I have watched ideas get "pinched" in a variety of ways and some that seem "Coincidence" in that they were mentioned in a particular location and a month or two later they appear at that shop.

All and all frankly at this point I'll stick to my third rate buildig and be content making things people may never see. My ideas can either be discovered by someone else 3 months later or never realized at all.

It's not just because there's newbie money makers, though - it's because new content creators have to compete with the existing ones. As time passes, the quality bar rises (a good thing) but that means more people fall below it (a bad thing) and it's good that these newbie methods have arisen to catch those who do fall that way. Without them, they'd have nothing to do at all.

People object so strongly to people who "want to make SL drudgery" instead of focusing on how it's different from RL, but if they have to make SL drudgery to get their money, what do you expect? And buying L$ is a bad deal - if they managed to make something, they can sell copies of it for regular income, whereas buying L$ is once-only.

Here's why I take it seriously... SL as it stands now not only depends on a small subsection of the population to create the content to entertain everyone else, it also depends on them to be the ones paying to keep the grid running. Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with that setup?

Edit: The more I think about it the more it infuriates me when I hear people ask for more fun stuff to do and more compelling content and also expect to get it for free, because it's all going to come (the content and the RL money that subsidizes everyone else) from the same small subset of people. The system depends on people being willing to pay for content to offset the expenses of those paying for the privilege of providing it.

Yes, I agree. And why has that occured? What I believe - and I acknowledge that I don't have anywhere near as much as experience - is that if you are not a content creator or a land baron, then the "ultimate rewards" of playing SL are not high enough for people to spent US$ in their pursuit.

If you're going for a business and your reward is going to be to pay back tier and make a profit then there's plenty of grounds to invest a starting stake. But if you're not, the "ultimate reward" is to get to live a Second Life that actually entertains you, and that's going to revolve around social factors. If folks don't know that, they learn that when they finally buy their outfit or house or whatever and realise that it doesn't mean anything unless other people show interest in it. So, they figure, since they can't afford the stuff they want, the way to work around it is not going to be to buy L$ - since they can't buy social interest - but to work around it socially. And the way to do that is to find other people who are in the same position (and who thus, are motivated to make sure people in that position can get social interest) and chat with them, which is exactly what camping chairs (and arena games) facilitate. In that position, those group provide them with social interest which gives them entertainment. And - and this is only an indirect impression I've had from some interaction with them - but it seems that some feel buying L$ would actually get them ostracised, for "selling out"!

The present model - of the big game support payment being for land - by definition means that content creators are going to be the ones paying, because if you're not a content creator, there's relatively little point having land. You can get a house on your premium 512, but if you're not wanting to create, it'll just be a prefab house full of prefab objects. Thus, rather hard to get any social interest in, and thus... well, see above. And, in fact, when these folks do need a house to play in, they're happy to use the house of an offline player with no return or security script. Unethical? Maybe so in the world at large, but not in the "no money" social circles they'll be in.

My belief is that the only way of managing things is going to be to increase the entertainment value offered by SL to all users to the point where it can charge all users a subscription in the same way WoW does, then remove tier, so that content creators aren't penalised anymore. But, equally, I know that LL are not stupid. I presume they have some design to which they are working.

Yumi as yous tate you are not a "big content creator" but do you have ideas? Do you have thoughts that if you HAD the tools or someone that offered to split profits with you by making your IDEAS come true would you give them out? That's another line I think many are forgetting is frankly they lack the skill and/or the US$ to invest in these progams. Some people CANNOT learn these programs and have even tried previous but could offer alot in the way of ideas.

Quoting myself to prove a point...
See Lynn... here is an oppurtunity for people to make money... look how many viewers have read this thread, guess how many people replied or asked about how they can EARN money? NONE
PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO EARN MONEY, THEY WANT IT FOR FREE!

No, they want to earn it by doing stuff they enjoy. And there's nothing wrong with that, since it's exactly what all the most successful folks on SL seem to do.

(Must greet everyone? Hmm. Ok.. attachment, 100% alpha, same name as the wearing avatar, short range sensorRepeat, rotating string pool...)

I am not against people waiting to find something they enjoy one bit, but thats not the topic of the thread is it?

I think the exploitation and the call to duty of the community to make SL compelling to new customers is bullshit and the responsibility falls directly on the shoulders of LL. I made this thread and we discussed it then although really most people are more interested in forum drama than intelligent discussions on business and social engineering.

Some current issues

1) Free accounts. People are willing to pay for accounts if there is something that makes it worth it. WoW has 4 million users that are paying $16 a month; obviously their customers see the value in paying for a service.

2) No Compelling Linden created content. Customers will come and go. You get the people and keep the people by having some constants you can build on. They seem to recognize this and are making some efforts to improve but it is still far too little.

3) No targeted directions for new players.

4) Not enough incentive or support for education

5) Stagnant unstable platform

6) Dwell is a disaster and a fucking disgrace. Dwell is like corporate welfare gone extremely, extremely wrong. Dwell should support compelling designs and attractions by residents to help subsidize the cost of Sim ownership and development. This would help keep a lot of really cool places people remember in the past that everyone loved that are since gone like the wind because people can't afford to support them and don't see the purpose in trying to compete with the vice industry in SL. Dwell currently supports some of the ugliest shit builds on all the internet (some of which are the equivalent of web pages with sounds, raining images, cursor trails, java applets from hell, PhP code pulled from asses etc etc) in any format 2D or 3D providing sub par at best if any entertainment.


Money chairs are a far more interesting thing than Money Trees. The places I have been with people sitting in money chairs at least there was interaction amongst the people in the chairs. Ever watch the professional money tree newbies pick a tree? It is really a work of art how they can snatch the money that fast, not even talk to the land owners and race off to the next tree. I see money chairs providing some benefit to the owers.

I think many Residents are having the same problem that LL is having, attracting and maintaining a customer base. LL is giving away accounts to try and win people over, Residents are following that lead and giving away money via money chairs. It still doesn’t solve the problem that SL can be boring as hell with no direction, a steep learning curve, and technical issues that will be a turn off to most consumers. The failure of LL to attract and maintain a customer base while touting SL as the place to come and get rich has made some people desperate for success. Desperation has turned into money chairs.


Cliff’s Note Version:

Stop blaming this cesspool that SL has become on paying customers and blame it on the source, the lack of vision on the part of a corporation.

Wow Eboni, aside from the foul language, great post! lol

Best post I've read in quite a while.

I guess I just don't understand why SL has to be drudgery. (One of the complaints I hear most often about TSO is the repetitive tasks you have to go through to earn simoleans.) One of the strengths of Second Life's population is our ability to envision alternatives to accepted wisdom.

Exactly why I called it a misfit economy, and why I can't take it seriously. What is most interesting to me is that people are willing to spend hours camping in a chair to earn L$ rather than just buy them with real money. Persuading the general population to accept the concept of US$ for L$ would seem to be essential to LL's survival.

Clearly people want to buy the stuff creators make, else they wouldn't spend their time camping for cash. Obviously it's a mere trickle of cash where we require the money to flow more freely.

Although Kermit came close with Tringo, I don't think we've created SL's first killer app yet. Perhaps it will be something to help the general populace be creative. Maybe it will be an interesting and fun way for newbies to make money. If I were a betting man I'd put my money on someone discovering a way to make events finally work (in an economic sense). In any case, there has to be something coming which will loosen the purse strings and get people to buy L$

Yep, lots of excellent Points, Eboni. Personally, I love the concept behind SL, and part of me still likes the fact that it's all a big experiment being made up as we all go along. I just wonder sometimes if the vision is a bit too utopian.



Couldn't agree more.

Granted, There hasn't done as well as SL, but I'm always curious why people are so willing to fork over money ala carte for what they want (on top of a monthly fee no less), but in SL so many people are loathe to drop a few bucks on Lindex to get some L$. What makes people over There "get it" without fighting it every step of the way yet here a similar setup leaves so many complaining that they don't get enough for free? I've never tried out There, so maybe they have the same issues and I just don't know about it. Is the difference that in a place like There people feel like they're paying for stuff done by the developer and in SL it seems lesser because it's going to other residents? I don't get it.

I would be happy to pay a monthly fee if I saw more than useless trinkets and a preprogramed automated dance parties for entertainment. Right now your game is a SNORE!
Yes I have said it. IT IS DULL Hey Lindens if your reading this. Get off your butts and create some content. You can't expect people to pay through the nose for tier to provide space and hope that a half baked script will do the job. This platform has so much potential and your wasting it. Bravo Philip Rosedale you have suckered some folks into buying play money and a imaginary land. Some are getting rich and others are just getting taken.
I suspect more are being taken. My suggestion to the good folks at LL. Take a stroll around the net. Look at what others are doing. One company is recreating the caribbean.
Down to the last island and sand bar then going to turn players lose with thier own pirate ships.
Another company is doing baseball. Interacting with a two teams of ball players and knowing every thing you do on screen is from your own inupt is a hell of lot more exciting than watching a cartoon character dance that is powered with a script. The listof things that could be done goes on and on.

Instead what you have is captialisim gone amuck. Sitting in a chair to get a L$ is the high light of the evening. This I find totaly sad but what is more sad is the die hards here. Who
don't even notice that people are always coming and then going. How long before more leave than stay?
Go ahead throw out the "free loaders" the ones who don't pay a monthy account. The ones who don't buy your useless trinkets or make believe land. I suspect that it will get very lonely after awhile. To be blunt. I work hard all day. I do not want to work as hard for a video game. I shudder to think what the state of play will be next year. They bring back the tax on rezing items?

If your complaing that your spending too much money on this and not getting enough back. Then it's a situation you created. Stop buyting the fake land. stop paying the out of sight land tiers. That will wake up LL faster than a million posts and emails about the state of the game.

There is one thing Philip Rosedale and I have in commong. We have been invovled in computers and the net for a very long time. I am sure he knows as well as I do that this is industry where adapt or die is the motto to live by. Today you may be the leader in this race but there is always someone right behind you, ready to take your place. The question I ask is LL resting on thier butts getting fat off the monthly fees or they really prepared to keep this alive by innovation. At this rate how long can they be last?

As another poster said "it is the fault of the managment"

I wish you well on this but far as I am concerned. I don't see enough here to keep my interest outside dropping in to see a friend or two.

(get this posted before they close the thread )

Rox

Earnings?? Your kidding right? Do the math and your intire rant here becomes mute. There are NO earnings.

Are you kidding?

I've read the replies.

It's actually quite sad that for those of you who have created a valued SL career here (which encompasses selling items within SL for $$$) that you even fail to see that as a SL'ian you also need to take some responsibility to put those $$$'s back into the economy.

It's very sad to see many of you simply say... "If you can't create like *I* did -- get the fuck outta town."

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

SL needs all types of individuals in order to succeed and grow. Having a full colony of "all content creators working all the time" will not increase your cash flow. IF SL was filled with only content creators, there would be no need to purchase your items. Like your ego, the other content creators could turn their nose up at you and simply say... "I can make it better."

I asked what you as content creators have given back to the community. What I read was... "I pay my bills to SL..." Not one word about offering or sponsoring an event, not one word about hiring an assistant or taking on an apprentice. Not one word about using someone else's talents other than their SL-type skills to your advantage, coz "We don't need 'em."

SL needs all types of individuals to survive. You have to have the fun-loving socialites to engage in conversation, you have to have scripters and builders to create those areas of "content" that you so demand that the population create.

Yet each of you who have spoken up have found your own little area of speciality and have not expanded past it. But yet, you expect individuals to do it all.

You're seeing the responses from people who "use SL and play SL" for fun. They don't want your jobs. They want SL to be fun, relaxing and maybe a hobby.

But that wasn't my point of this thread. I asked how many of you have put your earned L's back into the economy instead of sucking it dry and crying about the weekly stipends.

Your answers said it all. So here's to you. "Fuck' em, let them leave if they can't handle and learn it like *I* did."

SL has been in existance for three years now. Not one piece of "content" has been created that has stuck except for gambling, games, dance clubs, clothing and land sales, and free money raffles/give-aways. That is user-created content, that's *your* user-created content.

Three years and not one compelling content creation from those of you who say... "Create or get the hell out." "Buy those Linden's if you want to play here." But yet you will dismiss the people who come here for a fun and social experience.

Without you putting something back into SL (and not just your 'creations') -- your version of SL will only get worse. See, if people find SL boring, filled with teen griefers, or if they can't quite grab the creative tools, they'll leave. If they leave, your sims, stores, and income will begin to drop.

While many say it's SL responsibilty to create the content, and while many of you show the TOS for sign-up -- you've forgotten that you've also signed up with the vision of SL for user-created content -- and it's up to you to also help in the creation process. LL can't create content, selling of your items is not "content" -- you need to become more involved within the community or the vicious circle of "free money" and your whines will continue.

For all the complaints about WoW, I will say that it has one thing going for it that SL doesn't have. To compete and win and enjoy the end-game content of WoW, it forces people to check their ego's at the door and work together in a 30-40 man team. And there's "fun" in doing that with laughter, friendship and gatherings. Try that philosophy in SL and see what might happen. First step though, is to check your ego's at the door and contribute to a team and as a team for SL.

umm excuse me?

I think someone needs a little nap.

You're right, Lynn. Content creators, event hosts, club owners, and everyone else who works hard to keep SL entertaining should be made to feel guilty about it. What they do isn't enough. They should also give away whatever meager income they make from it. Right. Got it. Want me to paint your house and wash your car while I'm at it? Can I get you a sandwich?