Complaints About Dwell/Money Chairs

People need to create their own economic opportunities.

edit: Seriously. You don't get results by handing out "jobs" that are basically free money opportunities for anyone who wants to exert a token effort.

So what are my skates, if they're not content? You seem to be arguing that products aren't content. I'm arguing that products are content, along with a whole host of other things (as I've already said twice I think). You're saying that people who sell product aren't content creators. I'm saying that people who make products are content creators. One type of content creator. They are still creating content.



I agree that we need environments in which people can use the content that the product merchants make and sell. But that brings me back to the camping chairs again - when popularity is gauged by how much money you can give away to people just sitting around, where does that leave the people who wish to invest to create the other environments?



Yes it is, it is one example of content creation.



Yes, that's true. But where's the incentive to do that whilst we have god-awful places with little aesthetic filled with AFK people earning L$10 an hour by just sitting there. What about that is going to make people think that they'll be anything other than ignored by all these new players who see a couple of shiny L$, sit down and go AFK. Maybe it's the laziness of the consumer that you should be railing against? And what impact do you feel this has on the overal SL experience? That people only visit places where they get free money? Wow, that's a healthy economy isn't it!

You can't argue your points and support camping chairs or the "consumers" that flock to them - the two don't fit well together I'm afraid. The whole free money thing is an extremely strong example of how the economy, and the social aspect, is failing. But don't blame the everyday product producers or content creators for that, that's blaming the wrong people.



What jobs? I have absolutely no need to employ somebody. So why would I employ somebody simply because? That makes no sense at all to me. You may not be buying the argument of "walk over to the Lindex and buy some money" but many obviously are, otherwise there would be no market for people to sell their L$ on.

We do have a balance between consumer and producer, at least that's what my sales are telling me. There is a demand for the products I produce, if there wasn't I'd probably be more likely to agree with some of your points. But unless that happens, then I don't see what you're fussing over. And if you want to see some excellent, well thought out, well invested environments then start a compaign against the camping chairs and free money balls. Those "business leaders" might then begin to think it's worth doing, rather than the odd one or two (like i did with Numbakulla) who do it just because.

You would do it to make them feel good about their time in SL, of course!

"Collect your job. Pick it off the bush where you think it grows."

Put equally plainly and simply you are 100%, totally incorrect. Those skates that took me 30+ hours to create, that I scripted and that I made all the animations for are not content? You seriously believe that the skates in and of themselves do not consitute content? Really? They are content that I created, it is content that has led to many others creating skating rinks simply because of my skates (I know this because of the IMs I've been getting). Without my content much of their content would not have happened. To discount a product as not being content is ridiculously small minded and, I would suggest, forcing it out of that category purposefully because of some preconception or belief that you have.



Rubbish. They take my content, mix it with their content and create something else. Both are content of different types. This is almost getting to the point of being ridiculous I'm afraid.

Of course something like ice skates are intended to be used on ice-like environments, I'll grant you that. My roller skates though, nope, they needed nothing else to be enjoyed as content - something created and provided.

And as for it being "simply selling". Yes, of course it is. Because I just thought of the ice skates and they magically appeared in front of my eyes. Sorry but sarcasm is all I can resort to here as you are demeaning the act of creating something and artificially saying that products do not equal content. To be honest I think your agenda is a little wacky now.

Just now?

I have spent more in sl than I believe I will ever earn back. Both on merchandise and employment of others within sl.

I believe those using the chairs are gaming the system which is intended to reward the hard working creative individuals in sl. That system is completly flawed and is not being used as it was intended. SL is not a game that much is entirly too clear at this point, we must then abolish any systems in place that encourage or represent SL as any type of game. Until such a time, SL as a business model cannot and will not be taken seriously by the main stream media. IMO of course.

Lynn, I think Moopf is a better example of what could be done than what isn't done. Moopf sponsored not just a pretty place but an alternative, quality activity. Moopf's skates are fun things here. I wear them all the time skating my way through SL. Priced at $50, they are the best buy in SL.

Moopf, I liked your skates enough to build a skatepark. I asked you to place a vendor there for the convenience of people wanting to skate. Since I'm not wanting to spend my time in SL beholden to or responsible for anything, I have not done anything to create activity there beyond the self serve kind. But people want to skate with green dots. So all I've done is create potential but could do much more.

Moopf, let me suggest a way your skates could have been utilized to further activities in SL. Charge more and funnel the extra money to people building skate places and holding skate events. Charge $75 and allow $25 to the person sponsoring your vendor to help supplement their tier and reward them for having good alternative events or to hire someone to hold skate races and events. That's what I should be doing in terms of what Lynn is putting forth here.

I've bought plenty of new people who have dropped by a pair of your skates. Instead of giving money to new people via random gifts or money trees, we could be seeking out those event givers who lost their $500 event fee months ago and support them and in doing so create an advertisement opportunity for products.

Good God, yes.

But in the six months since I've been offering event support in exchange for advertising, the only person who has ever taken me up on it is you, Margaret. I've been waving around a big ass stack of L$ for anyone who wants to make the simple accomodation of giving me some brand space, and even that is apparently too much work.

Enabran, you know what I'm talking about, you've put forth your willingness to support events in exchange for advertising on more than one occasion.

It would help if the core users got out and supported quality events with their presense. People look for green dots in the pursuit of fun. When event support was withdrawn, we should have ralllied around the good events. They should have charged and we should have made a point to take a break from creating to attend and support them by paying a fee and by participating.

Too fast, Enabran. I was getting to you next.

Perhaps so! I think it was a mistake to continue paying the patrons for their presence.

As for taking a break from creating, meh. I'm not a terribly social person in SL. I'm mostly here to execise creative muscles and render my dreams in some form or another. Events have never really interested me, except in the sense of sponsorships I have been willing to provide.

Sorry, buddy. It's part of the business. Do you think the big guys want to attend all those events irl?

Neither am I, btw. But we do need to push ourselves now and then. In the case of the evening I met you and we worked out our arrangement, it was in essence a purely social activity. I'm glad to have met you, as it has helped me tolerate many of your posts.

There is a limited, finite range of things that you can do in SL in order to earn Lindens. Furthermore, in order to do any of them well enough to be noticed, you are going to have to practice, which involves doing tasks over and over again and hopefully getting better each time. Unless you actually enjoy the task for the sake of doing the task, that will be drudgery, and yet even if you don't enjoy the task you have to do it because you need the money.



And I've already suggested reasons why:

- The ultimate reward of SL for a non-creator is, basically, getting to chat with their friends. As any number of free talkers will show you that isn't considered worth spending US$ on. At least some I've talked to see the graphical nature of the game as an obstacle rather than a bonus (ie, it's not a bonus that they can look like what they want because they can't - they can't afford it and even then they can only look like what the artists deign to let them look like - it's an obstacle that they have to earn enough to overcome the default ugliness). The reason why they don't "just quit" given that is that this would be admitting failure where others have clearly succeeded.

- Amongst the low-income people, socially "winning" is having gotten the money for store-bought items or having worked around poverty in other ways. However, once you get through the threshold (which isn't that high) where you can buy the stuff you want from stores relatively easily, you get hit with a new social "winning" condition - which is based on creating stuff. Since these folks can't or don't want to create stuff, they have no interest in joining that group since they can't "win" or gather respect. Thus, they remain among the low-income folks, and buying themselves out of that situation with US$ would be contrary to what they want.



Well, I can't say anything definite, but I think that the kind of person who would have been put off joining SL by a $9.99 lifetime fee (ie, all the people who are now joining because it's free) is equally the kind of person who will not buy L$.

Still at it a..give up!.................OMG Stop the drama littleone please!

Bahaha, that was unexpected and memorably sharp. Touche!



I guess I should specify "not social" in the sense of not being particularly excited by the thought of having more than five people around me. I don't mind smaller encounters, as I find human interaction is often helpful to my thought processes. This is why I'll occasionally build in the Morris sandbox, despite having half of Bonifacio and all of Gibson at my disposal.

You know, I used to do this but very few people used to take me up on the offer - many just flat out refusing to let me do it. Explanations I recieved from many people basically revolved around them using the skates as the attractor and that they needed that content in order for them to run the events they wanted to. They saw the value to them as simply having a skate vendor there, rather than any money they would make off the skates, and they wanted to support my pricing low by not taking anything themselves.

As for sponsoring events it's a good idea in principle but, unfortuantely, never actually really worked well in practice when I tried it. It gets too complicated, at least it did when I tried it, as hosts didn't like being asked how many people turned up etc. and immediately went on the defensive. The event punters, by and large, only seem to be interested in how much money is on offer, rather than the quality or content of the event or how interesting it is, and that's something I'd rather not support. I don't want to be part of a support system that just allows that to propogate as I believe part of our problem in SL is that so much is built upon the mentality of "how much L$ can I get for doing nothing" that it's detrimental to the evolution of the whole. Whilst that pervades, quality may continue to be stifled.

What isn't publicised however, and what many people don't know, is that there are some people who do give large amounts of money to event hosts to help support them. It may not be many, but it does happen, in the hopes of nurturing a diverse range of interesting events that aren't all about the money.

If you have nothing constructive to add, rather than just baiting somebody for no apparent reason again, please walk away from the thread.

That's definitely an issue. A challenge is identifying credible events and credible organizers (though luckily, on my first run around the track, I found both of these in Margaret's offer).

You know.....its people like you and some others that pervent people from replying to messge why? because you push them around ble bla bla....... Look you in rl i run a business.......So do what you do in real with your. repect those that post message and give thoughts.........THE END

For someone who so opines upon the sins of blowing one's own horn... Well, let's just call you Tubby the Tuba.

You're right, of course, I shouldn't feed the trolls. Especially trolls I can't understand. My bad.

Which your doing right now....................

sorry i have no idea what your talking..........nice second face thou

Now you know how we feel.

That reminds me... I need to get your skates Moopf - "funest" things in SL.