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Talented designer permanently banned over extremely shaky charges...

Io Zeno
Registered User
Join date: 1 Jun 2006
Posts: 940
08-14-2006 10:22
From: Dale Glass
While the situation indeed sucks, what do you expect them to do? Call her and discuss who was actually logged in?

From one side, LL have lots of people asking for stronger enforcement. Now on the other side, they have people complaining about the same enforcement. Hello?



Well, I can't read their mind, but here's my guess.

Initially, we had a credit card requirement, and it was (fairly) good. Then they opened up registration. Lots and lots of people started complaining (and rightfully so) that now they can't reliably ban anybody, lists are too short, etc. Some of the complaints were specifically about that now with the lack of credit card requirement it's very easy for anybody to continue creating accounts.

And now, you're complaining about the same system working exactly as intended. Sure, it sucks for her, but what do you really expect from LL? If they let people come back, there'll eventually be people whining about old griefers being allowed back. And if they don't, they'll whine about losing a designer instead. It's an unwinnable situation.

What probably got her banned is not a person, but some mechanism along the lines of "if card number is in ban list, ban". LL obviously can't investigate personally every person and decide whether they're evil or just happen to have stupidly shared their card with somebody who is. But I suppose that with enough outcry they can make an exception.

There's also a lesson in all this: Do not share your credit card!. Sheesh. A credit card is like a toothbrush, it's supposed to be used only by you.


First off, we have no idea what caused this. Comptuer, credit card, who knows. All we do know is that a two year-old account of her brother's was used as justification to ban someone who has proven herself to be an obviously upright citizen, a talented creator, who doesn't cause trouble.

The fact that griefers and underage players and content thieves are running around the grid right now, even after being reported, while this productive person is being purged based on some two year-old connection to a banned account is what is so absurdly unfair about all of this.

Of course, this is what LL won't have to answer to anymore. Not in public. And would most of us know about this if we hadn't read about it on the forums?

All that aside, I would like an explanation for this girl's sake alone. If we are misunderstanding this, take the opportunity to clear it up, LL. You know, without the forums, if you really are completely innocent of some charge, we will never know. It works both ways.
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VolatileWhimsy Bu
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,492
08-14-2006 10:23
From: Iris Ophelia
So say we only ever hear that side. We only ever here the "victim's" side of countless horror stories, and LL never says anything about their side. We can't get mad? The fact is that this isn't just one story alone. It's a repeting flaw in the disciplinary system which Cristiano has experienced himself, and you haven't, and just because LL doesn't make statement doesn't mean we should just sit and stare at our feet. Ultimately unless we DO get "hostile", the chances of anything happening, even the revelation of more info, are 0%.
The difference with thiscase getting attention now is that it seems completely unprovoked on her part, and she was a productive and well-mannered person by all accounts, so she's a great figurehead to draw attention to the issue. We'll still likely never get an answer, but the hostility is a necessary evil.


you can get mad, but maybe you have to hold back to see the bigger picture.
But the thing your missing is everything is flawed.. not just their disciplinary actions.. but your behavior and mine as well.. :/

I agree there is no need to stare at your feet, but to beat the dead horse with a stick does the opposite of what you want.. have someone investigate it.
People sometimes forget that hostility will get some effects, but all it really takes is the squeaky wheel and you can do that with dignity.................

what I don't understand is that there have been a couple of ppl that have brought up valid points.. Instead of reflecting on their points they are simply blatantly ignored since they are not going with popular opnion....

its like watching my fellow humans believe selectively what they read out of the newspapers.. :(
i don't blame you all... i blame everyone...
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
08-14-2006 10:27
From: VolatileWhimsy Bu
using words for the sake of using them means nothing...


Then why did you post?
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Rickard Roentgen
Renaissance Punk
Join date: 4 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,869
08-14-2006 10:32
I've known Kin for about a year and a half I think. From this thread I gather she was banned for changing her account to a payment method that had been used by someone previously banned.

Knowing Kin, and knowing how little LL has to go on when deciding on abuse cases, all I can say is no matter what letter of the law was or was not followed precisely, Kin did not deserve to be banned. Period. Now I know that there's no way LL can know this. So presumably when the same payment method came up, they had to assume the same previously banned person? If that were the case (and it's not) does 2 years of active contribution and staying out of trouble not count for anything? Rhetorical question, obviously it doesn't.

On the plus side, with the miraculous new registration system, Kin will probably be back. Ironically, If what happened to her had just happened to me, I might go on a griefing spree :D! yay for policy that does more harm than good. Yay for one step forward and one step back.
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Cow Hand
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 292
08-14-2006 10:32
From: Shiryu Musashi
As always, not being a firefighter doesn't mean i should just shrug and walk away when i see an house on fire.


Yes, but it doesn't mean you should storm in, either.

Call 9-1-1 and go about your business. Otherwise, you might get flamed.
VolatileWhimsy Bu
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,492
08-14-2006 10:34
From: Reitsuki Kojima
Then why did you post?


is this where i say i know what you are but what am i?
Cow Hand
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 292
08-14-2006 10:36
From: Chronic Skronski
Lindens, if you're reading, it would be a very good idea to post your side of the story here - even if you feel it is none of our business.


Not really. But paying attention to a case like this, LL gives it the appearance of it being more important than it really is. They would legitimize the accusations.

If LL is smart, they will ignore it, and the short attention spans of SL players will soon forget it. Thats the play I would make.
Summer Carmichael
UNVERIFIED REGISTERED
Join date: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 326
08-14-2006 10:38
From: Rickard Roentgen
If what happened to her had just happened to me, I might go on a griefing spree :D!



This says a lot about how you deal with adversity. I guess you advocate this behaviour too?
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Summertime is a nice time.
Iris Ophelia
Blue-Stocking Suffragette
Join date: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 138
08-14-2006 10:39
Right now, there have been endless unjust actions I've seen in my short time here, so I'm inclined to believe this case. I'd spoken with Kin briefly in-world, I had most of her hairstyles. I'm notorious for holding back to see the bigger picture. i don't blame LL for bugs, for development problems, but as much as I try, I can't imagine how this could have been instigated by Kin herself. I understand that for security's sake, some measures are in place that may unintentionally block innocent parties. However, shouldn't their be an appeals system in place that works? People know where to send the contestations, the problem is they never hear back. Nothing is done. IP and CC banning is great, but you have to allow for appeals and exceptions or else we're going to lose a lot more talented people.

And in my opinion even if she DID deserve it, she should have been paid out. She earned her money, and you can't preach about how you've made a real economy and real currency, then take someone's earnings when it suits you. Did she cause hundreds of dollars of in-world damage to warrant her money being claimed by LL? That's the sort of thing that we would have heard at least a whisper of by now.
Cow Hand
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 292
08-14-2006 10:39
From: Cristiano Midnight
I am hostile at this point, and certainly not unintelligent - I tend to find presumption to be a better indicator of lack of intelligence. Many people are simply angry, disillusioned, and fed up with what has been happening with SL, especially if they have seen it go down hill over time. It doesn't make them unintelligent.


Why don't you just leave SL then?

Doesn't that make more sense than sticking around always complaining about the postal service, et al.
Summer Carmichael
UNVERIFIED REGISTERED
Join date: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 326
08-14-2006 10:40
From: Coyote Momiji
Why would LL allow a banned account's CC to be reused in the first place?

This smells very odd.



Agreed.
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Summertime is a nice time.
VolatileWhimsy Bu
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,492
08-14-2006 10:41
From: Cow Hand
Not really. But paying attention to a case like this, LL gives it the appearance of it being more important than it really is. They would legitimize the accusations.

If LL is smart, they will ignore it, and the short attention spans of SL players will soon forget it. Thats the play I would make.


I have to agree with this.. When you recognize something you have given it credit :(
Cow Hand
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 292
08-14-2006 10:43
From: VolatileWhimsy Bu
I have to agree with this.. When you recognize something you have given it credit :(


Exactly. Better to just let the short attention span of SL's players collectively forget about it.

And if things got bad enough, LL could just create a crisis elsewhere to take attention off this issue.

Spin Control.
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
08-14-2006 10:43
From: Cow Hand
Why don't you just leave SL then?

Doesn't that make more sense than sticking around always complaining about the postal service, et al.


I have to disagree. There is more to SL than how you feel about LL, and I hate this attitude being displayed towards those with genuine reason for complaint.
Cow Hand
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 292
08-14-2006 10:44
From: Hiro Queso
I have to disagree. There is more to SL than how you feel about LL, and I hate this attitude being displayed towards those with genuine reason for complaint.


Well, LL is the government. They have stated that their policies are their policies.

So what non-annoying, non-whining course of action would you suggest?

Not trying to be snide, but I just don't see the point.
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
08-14-2006 10:48
From: Cow Hand
Well, LL is the government. They have stated that their policies are their policies.


If they're a government, where is the democracy? If they're a business, then their customers have every right to complain about the service.

From: Cow Hand
So what non-annoying, non-whining course of action would you suggest?

Not trying to be snide, but I just don't see the point.


Well let's just hope that you are never put in a position where you will see the point.
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
08-14-2006 10:48
From: VolatileWhimsy Bu
is this where i say i know what you are but what am i?


If you like. I don't think it will do wonders for your claims of the lack of intelligence of others, however.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Lost Newcomb
Registered User
Join date: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 666
08-14-2006 10:49
From: Cow Hand

Why don't you just leave SL then?

...

Well, LL is the government. They have stated that their policies are their policies.

So what non-annoying, non-whining course of action would you suggest?

Not trying to be snide, but I just don't see the point.


Your view is similar to the right wing doctrine. Either you are with us or against us.

They, similar to you suggest leaving the country if one was to criticize and point out things that are wrong.

This is not how things work.
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I'm the uncontested Ubar of All of Gor, and Knight of SecondLife.

Proper way to greet me : Sir Lost, Ubar Lost, or if your so inclined, Master Newcomb.
Cow Hand
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 292
08-14-2006 10:49
From: Hiro Queso
If they're a government, where is the democracy?


What makes you assume SL has to be a democracy?
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
08-14-2006 10:49
From: Hiro Queso
If they're a government, where is the democracy?


Government != Democracy.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Cow Hand
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 292
08-14-2006 10:50
From: Reitsuki Kojima
Government != Democracy.


G-D right.
Cow Hand
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 292
08-14-2006 10:51
From: Reitsuki Kojima
Government != Democracy.


Democracy is the illusion those in power give to those who are not to make them think they have some input.
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
08-14-2006 10:52
From: Reitsuki Kojima
Government != Democracy.

OK I will reword it for you Reitsuki: If LL would consider themselves a government, under what type would they consider it to be, and what does this mean to all it's citizens?

I suspect, however, they consider themselves a company ;)
VolatileWhimsy Bu
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,492
08-14-2006 10:52
From: Lost Newcomb
Your view is similar to the right wing doctrine. Either you are with us or against us.

They, similar to you suggest leaving the country if one was to criticize and point out things that are wrong.

This is not how things work.


but that is the way of business.. :/
Second Life will never meet the demands of anyone untill, either there is a mass exdous, or there is a product that is comparable.. :/

captalist...
Cow Hand
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 292
08-14-2006 10:53
From: Hiro Queso
OK I will reward it for you Reitsuki: If LL would consider themselves a government, under what type would they consider it to be, and what does this mean to all it's citizens?

I suspect, however, they consider themselves a company ;)


No. Philip has stated on more than one occasion he is building a COUNTRY.

This implies that LL is the government.
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