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Talented designer permanently banned over extremely shaky charges...

Lorelei Patel
was here
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,940
08-16-2006 08:58
From: Shiryu Musashi
Nothing worse for the community than devil's advocates...


Yeah, because we all know how absolutely dangerous critical thinking is. :rolleyes:
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Broadly offensive.
Beau Perkins
Second Life Resident.
Join date: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,061
08-16-2006 09:15
FOr anyone seeking protection from this. Call LL ahead of time, or contact a Linden to note that there are multiple people that use SL from your household.

My son did something very stupid when he first joined SLTeen. Luckily I made it known that I am an adult and had a child on the forums, simply by speaking to Blue Linden, more just to give feed back on the teen grid as a concerned parent.

Slightly funny story:
A drama queen in world once sent a bunch of complaint that they had SOLID proof I was a minor. It was all because of some childish drama I really didnt want to deal with and they thought they could lie and make stuff up to get me throw off the grid.

Here is the funny thing, a month earlier I had spoke at SLCC 2005 and met many of the Lindens who help decide bannings. I dont know if it ever really even went that far but I was really hoping they would try and report me.
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elka Lehane
WOWAWIWA
Join date: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 983
08-16-2006 09:19
From: VolatileWhimsy Bu
So, we've talked about:

What a great person Kin is
What great products Kin has
That Kin has not been a trouble maker under that name at all.
That Kin has experimeted with alts.

That the Lindens use an automated system for banning accounts with using a particular payment id.
That Kin did use a payment id that was associated with a banned acount and therefore was banned and all assets seized.
Kin has contacted the Lindens and her monetary gain from these assets were returned to her.
Kin is awaiting reinstatement pending investigation from the Lindens.

That looking at it objectively we don't know if Kin was the previous banned account or it was her brother.

These are all facts. They are facts.

So at this point do you not think everyone is beating a dead horse?

Would it be a good idea to give it a week to see if her reinstatement goes through?

Don't you think that is a reasonable amount of time? We all know Rome was not built in a day. Nor are resoultions ever quick in coming..

Patience is a virtue.


MARRY ME?
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Dale Glass
Evil Scripter
Join date: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 252
08-16-2006 09:29
From: Shiryu Musashi

I'm not really sure,considering that the first time I and others brought to public (and linden)attention the spawning of similar self replicating objects long before (spending several hours of our time hunting them all around the grid to provide data about what was easily comparable to a viral infection)


Ok, so you agree the problem exist.

From: Shiryu Musashi

LL completely ignored the problem, and the usual devil's advocates even defended it, opening the door to further exploit.


This is a bit pedantic, but you seem to insist on missing it: A "devil's advocate" isn't somebody who has an opinion you don't like. It's somebody with the function of looking for arguments against something, with the intent of of separating the wheat from the chaff, to put it in some way. Sort of like a lawyer's job is to represent you, whether s/he thinks you're a nice guy or not, and regardless of whether s/he thinks you're in the right or not.

The origin, IIRC, is that a devil's advocate is a minister in the cathlolic church, whose function is to find arguments against the canonization of a potential saint. It's a safeguard to ensure that only the truly worthy are canonized. This is an useful function, and not bad in the slightest.

From: Shiryu Musashi

So we could easily say that LL brought that upon the grid themselves. Probably the "jerk" felt encouraged exactly by the complete lack of inaction in that previous case, and i'm not sure if i can blame him fully for that.

All that is very well, but you're not answering the question: Do we have a need for bans or not? If we do, it's a natural consequence that sometimes people will be wrongly banned. If we don't, then we have to accept that people like the one described will start moving in and make things "interesting".

From: Shiryu Musashi

Considering how easy is to obtain a new credit, debit or prepaid card nowadays, i would say that not only banning on financial info is not safe, but it's one of the most unsafe methods available.
Actually one could argue, using just one bit of simple logic, that if one uses a suspicious credit card, he probably is unaware of the problems associated with it, otherwise he wouldn't use that, risking serious damage and loss like kin had to bear, while he could spend 10 bucks and get a new one.


Very well, I agree it's not perfect. What do you propose instead? IP address bans have a much larger chance of wrongly banning somebody, and hardware hash bans can be circumvented. If you have something that works better, go to Philip and offer him that, I'm sure he'd be willing to pay you a good chunk of cash for it.

And BTW, I'm still waiting for the reply to the rest of my previous post.
elka Lehane
WOWAWIWA
Join date: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 983
Kin Is Back In Search!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
08-16-2006 12:28
KIN IS BACK IN SEARCH>PEOPLEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

i have no idea *exactly* why and what is being done, but SHE IS ANYWAYS!! MEGA HI5!!!!
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Lorelei Patel
was here
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,940
08-16-2006 12:39
Which is basically what I said to begin with: If it's in error, it can be cleared up. I don't think the hysterics on this thread helped the process any, but I could be wrong.
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Broadly offensive.
Shiryu Musashi
Veteran Designer
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,045
08-16-2006 12:43
From: elka Lehane
KIN IS BACK IN SEARCH>PEOPLEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!


That's great news indeed, now let's hope to see her online soon :)

From: Dale Glass
The origin, IIRC, is that a devil's advocate is a minister in the cathlolic church, whose function is to find arguments against the canonization of a potential saint. It's a safeguard to ensure that only the truly worthy are canonized. This is an useful function, and not bad in the slightest.


In the catholic church might have been not bad at all, but in a community where grieferes, thieves and wrongdoers (LL included in this case) find always someone more then willing to defend them, trying to shift the public opinion in their favor and undermining community unity, yes, it's quite damaging.

From: someone
All that is very well, but you're not answering the question: Do we have a need for bans or not? If we do, it's a natural consequence that sometimes people will be wrongly banned. If we don't, then we have to accept that people like the one described will start moving in and make things "interesting".


And you completely missed the point. So let's ban permanently without any solid proof, so even if proof of innocency comes later damage will be already done. Great policy indeed.


From: someone
Very well, I agree it's not perfect. What do you propose instead? IP address bans have a much larger chance of wrongly banning somebody, and hardware hash bans can be circumvented.


Easier than going to a bank and spending a whole 10 dollars to get a new prepaid card?

From: Lorelei Patel
Which is basically what I said to begin with: If it's in error, it can be cleared up. I don't think the hysterics on this thread helped the process any, but I could be wrong.


Too bad that, even if she'sindeed been reinstated (unfortunately i don't know if she's still suspended or not) , damage has already been done, and that cannot be repaired. But sure, let's always let the lindens get away with a "sorry for the inconvenience"...
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Lorelei Patel
was here
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,940
08-16-2006 13:12
From: Shiryu Musashi
In the catholic church might have been not bad at all, but in a community where grieferes, thieves and wrongdoers (LL included in this case) find always someone more then willing to defend them, trying to shift the public opinion in their favor and undermining community unity, yes, it's quite damaging.


Frankly, Shiryu, that line of thinking scares the bejezus outta me. This whole thread was started to move public opinion. So was the petition. So, let's be honest, it's not the "shifting of public opinion" that bothers you, it's that it might not be shifted in your direction. And if it's not in your direction, you'd rather quash it. Unity first; your own opinion be damned.

Yuck. :(


From: someone
Too bad that, even if she'sindeed been reinstated (unfortunately i don't know if she's still suspended or not) , damage has already been done, and that cannot be repaired. But sure, let's always let the lindens get away with a "sorry for the inconvenience"...


What damage was done that can't be repaired? (Not being beligerent here, just clueless)
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Broadly offensive.
Dale Glass
Evil Scripter
Join date: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 252
08-16-2006 13:22
From: Shiryu Musashi

In the catholic church might have been not bad at all, but in a community where grieferes, thieves and wrongdoers (LL included in this case) find always someone more then willing to defend them, trying to shift the public opinion in their favor and undermining community unity, yes, it's quite damaging.


Then I must say, "You keep using that expression. I do not think it means what you think it means". If you mean trolls, or misguided people, or whatever is what you mean, then just say so.


From: Shiryu Musashi

And you completely missed the point. So let's ban permanently without any solid proof, so even if proof of innocency comes later damage will be already done. Great policy indeed.


You still fail to provide any better alternatives. Yes, it's not perfect. But no, it's not possible to make it so that there's absolutely no possibility of getting banned. All ban lists are subject to that.

You also keep missing the point. She isn't herself banned, the card number is. Proof was provided when the specific card number was banned. This would have worked exactly the same if she bought a computer with a banned hash, or happened to be in a banned IP range.


From: Shiryu Musashi

Easier than going to a bank and spending a whole 10 dollars to get a new prepaid card?

Yup, at least that requires money, and going to the bank. And possibly disclosing your identity to the bank (not sure how prepaid cards work, never used one). Bans by IP address without banning lots of innocent people are only possible if the attacker has a static address, which is rather uncommon, and often a service that must be paid for. To ban dynamic users you need to ban a whole range, potentially banning more than 200 people.

Bans by hardware hash, as I said, will become completely ineffective as soon as somebody figures it out. All it takes is one coder figuring out what does SL check, and how to lie to it when it asks for the data. Then put that program on P2P and pass around. It's the same thing as with copy protection, it only delays the inevitable. If enough people want it cracked (especially if they're willing to pay for it), it will be.

From: Shiryu Musashi

Too bad that, even if she'sindeed been reinstated (unfortunately i don't know if she's still suspended or not) , damage has already been done, and that cannot be repaired. But sure, let's always let the lindens get away with a "sorry for the inconvenience"...


And that's all they can do. You either get bans, with their inevitable accidental bans of innocent people, or you get to deal with trolls with no moderation. Let's see the possible systems, and how they can fail, and how likely it is:

Card number: Example here. You share the card with somebody got banned. Probability: Low. Surely you don't share your card with many people, and trust them to some degree.

IP Address: If a range gets banned and you're in it. Probability: Very high. The range may include anywhere from tens to thousands of people. All of which but one won't have anything to do with it. The banned person could then use another ISP and get another range banned. This method is high maintenance, and isn't in any way linked to a specific person, so you never know for sure if it's even doing what it should.

Hardware hash: Somebody who is banned sells you their computer. Probability: Low to medium. Initially low as it works well. When somebody figures out how to generate random hashes, it is possible that one of the ones they generate will be your. This is also the one least likely to remain effective for long, IMO.

So I must repeat: what is your alternative?
Shiryu Musashi
Veteran Designer
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,045
08-16-2006 13:24
From: Lorelei Patel
Frankly, Shiryu, that line of thinking scares the bejezus outta me. This whole thread was started to move public opinion. So was the petition. So, let's be honest, it's not the "shifting of public opinion" that bothers you, it's that it might not be shifted in your direction. And if it's not in your direction, you'd rather quash it. Unity first; your own opinion be damned.


There are a couple problems :
1: more often then not such devil advocates come and begin to defend evident griefing or equivalent wrongdoing just for the sake of demonstrating their own wit and ability to argue. Practice that i personally and honestly find disgusting.
2: At least in clear cut cases of abuse, like when (in this case) a resident has been abused by a stronger party (LL), it would be refreshing to see the community stand united to defend such resident instead of seeing people throwing in totally blind and random accusations and trying to make her look bad.

From: someone
What damage was done that can't be repaired? (Not being beligerent here, just clueless)


The permanent ban caused Kin's shop to be removed from the grid, and a lot of lost business for Kin herself. Now, even if Kin will be reinstated, she'll still have to waste a lot of time rebuilding and no one will refund her lost business.
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Shiryu Musashi
Veteran Designer
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,045
08-16-2006 13:44
From: Dale Glass
Then I must say, "You keep using that expression. I do not think it means what you think it means". If you mean trolls, or misguided people, or whatever is what you mean, then just say so.


The expression has acquired the common meaning of someone that argues a quite clear cut case (and this is one) just for the sake of showing off his ability to argue.

From: someone
You still fail to provide any better alternatives. Yes, it's not perfect. But no, it's not possible to make it so that there's absolutely no possibility of getting banned. All ban lists are subject to that.


Hardware hash seems to me the best alternative, as i completely disagree with your probabilities. Sure it can be cracked, but at least it has to be cracked to stop working (and it requires effort and knowledge, that are more rare than 10 bucks), and when it is the type of check can be changed and require re-cracking. Prepaid cards are available to everyone everywhere.
But FOR SURE LL should ensure that no damage is done to the actual account's properties and assets (and that such assets continue to run regularly, IE: business and sales continue to be available and to pay into the account) until the suspended resident has had the time to review the ban, appeal against it, and possibly warrant a reversal.

From: someone
And that's all they can do. You either get bans, with their inevitable accidental bans of innocent people, or you get to deal with trolls with no moderation.


Wich we already do.
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Lorelei Patel
was here
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,940
08-16-2006 14:13
From: Shiryu Musashi
There are a couple problems :
1: more often then not such devil advocates come and begin to defend evident griefing or equivalent wrongdoing just for the sake of demonstrating their own wit and ability to argue. Practice that i personally and honestly find disgusting.


But how do you know if they're sincere or not? I've been sincere with my thoughts throughout this thread. See below:

From: someone
2: At least in clear cut cases of abuse, like when (in this case) a resident has been abused by a stronger party (LL), it would be refreshing to see the community stand united to defend such resident instead of seeing people throwing in totally blind and random accusations and trying to make her look bad.


I don't think this was clear-cut abuse. I do think the process could be finessed some, however.

I think at least putting an account on suspension is very reasonable. I don't think I'd go so far as to say remove a person's objects, no. But to freeze everything for a certain amount of time until a player can provide evidence needed, yes. If after, say, 7 days have passed and the person in question hasn't been able to prove themselves, then delete it.

Starting a discussion about the policies and how they are applied is not a bad thing. Discussing this particular situation and trying to understand it is not a bad thing. I don't know who you addressed this to, but I did not make blind or random accusations. I don't think I made any accusations. I had questions, legitimate ones, and asked them.

Do you think everyone should think the same and walk lock-step in agreement? If so, I'm rather dismayed.

From: someone
The permanent ban caused Kin's shop to be removed from the grid, and a lot of lost business for Kin herself. Now, even if Kin will be reinstated, she'll still have to waste a lot of time rebuilding and no one will refund her lost business.


I wonder if the objects can be recovered through a rollback?
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Broadly offensive.
Lorelei Patel
was here
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,940
08-16-2006 14:16
From: Shiryu Musashi
The expression has acquired the common meaning of someone that argues a quite clear cut case (and this is one) just for the sake of showing off his ability to argue.


The definition from Dictionary.com:

From: someone
One who argues against a cause or position, not as a committed opponent but simply for the sake of argument or to determine the validity of the cause or position.


So, even if the person doesn't believe the argument, the purpose is still to determine validity. And so, I don't think this is a bad thing at all.
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Broadly offensive.
Dale Glass
Evil Scripter
Join date: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 252
08-16-2006 14:24
From: Shiryu Musashi

Hardware hash seems to me the best alternative, as i completely disagree with your probabilities. Sure it can be cracked, but at least it has to be cracked to stop working (and it requires effort and knowledge, that are more rare than 10 bucks), and when it is the type of check can be changed and require re-cracking. Prepaid cards are available to everyone everywhere.

Well, since you insist in not believing me, I just visited the website for libsecondlife and took a look at it. A quick check turned out this page on the login process, in particular, this line:
From: someone

<value>
<string>00:D0:4D:28:1A:49</string> (Your MAC address, or your friend's, or whatever)
</value>


It looks like we have it right there, in all its glory. Still think this is going to last long? From the looks of it, they already got far enough to log in and chat. All that is missing is packaging the compiled program for distribution, after that, point and click. Not only that, but if it's indeed just the MAC, this can be already fully with tools freely downloadable on the net, and in Linux using tools included in pretty much every installation. Just google for it, and you'll find plenty.

From: Shiryu Musashi

But FOR SURE LL should ensure that no damage is done to the actual account's properties and assets (and that such assets continue to run regularly, IE: business and sales continue to be available and to pay into the account) until the suspended resident has had the time to review the ban, appeal against it, and possibly warrant a reversal.


Well, finally we agree about something. This should be easy enough to do, and I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done either. I'd be surprised if they couldn't do that already, though. Surely they have backups.
elka Lehane
WOWAWIWA
Join date: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 983
kin herself
08-16-2006 14:38
/140/6b/130530/1.html
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VolatileWhimsy Bu
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,492
08-16-2006 14:53
From: Shiryu Musashi
No Volatilewhimsy (goodness girl, i love you to pieces, but you have such a long name :P can't we call you with a nickname? :P), the problem goes a little beyond the "let's wait to see if they reinstate her".
The biggest problem is that even if they do, the ban already caused quite a lot of damage that cannot be repaired.

To elaborate my point further, i think that in ANY case (from the simplest griefing to any kind of serious infraction) no property loosing or content deleting action should be issued before the accused had enough time to review the charges, appeal against them and, if found innocent (it CAN definately happen) possibly warrant a reversal.
It's absolutely senseless, short-sighted and just completely dumb on LL's part to cause irreparable damage to someone (permanent ban with property and item loss or return) BEFORE he or she had the chance to appeal the decision.
Now even if Kin gets (as i really hope) reinstated, she will still find scorched earth where her shop was.

Let me shift the example on you to let you understand better: Someone at LL does a bad call on you, or a computer somewhere "misplaces some zeroes" (lessee if someone recognizes the quote :P) and you get a permanent ban issued on you. You loose your properties and all your builds get destroyed, everything goes byebye. Moreover, since the shop you worked on so much isn't there anymore, you're loosing a lot of sales.
Now, you appeal to LL, manage to prove your innocency and LL says: "ok, sorry for the inconvenience, we're reactivating your account"
And you answer "ahem, and what about all my stuff?"
"Oops, that's gone, we're so terribly sorry..."

In real life, if you arefound guilty of a crime, you get thrown in jail, but at least they don't burn down your house kill your dog and throw your car off a cliff...

Does this turn on a light?


Well you can call me hey you or the most amazing woman ever, wait that is long, or just vol i gues.. heh

Ok, correct me here if I am wrong. Can the Lindens not go back and give her back her stuff once she is reinstated? It is all data after all, and data never really goes away :/

I think that she did lose out on some days of making money, but.. I do think that in the end she just might come out ahead on this one. I for one will make a point to go to her store and buy something.. I am sure others will wether its in curiosity or just for support. Any publicity is good publicity :/


And would like to point out that i love being the devils advocate and pointing my nose where it doesn't belong...

So devils advocate is never a bad thing, it is just simply showing another point that might not have been know or seen previously. Now the way it is delivered is another thing.. :/
Shiryu Musashi
Veteran Designer
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,045
08-16-2006 16:28
From: Dale Glass

Well, finally we agree about something. This should be easy enough to do, and I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done either. I'd be surprised if they couldn't do that already, though. Surely they have backups.


The problem is that, as far as i know (may be wrong, but that's what the lindens always told me when something disastrous occurred), a property cannot be rolled back without rolling back the entire sim. So, if one doesn't own a private island he's kind of screwed (can't roll back an entire sim several days for one person).
The easiest solution is to avoid issuing permanent bans but just suspend an account at least for a period of time necessary for investigation and only AFTER the resident has had a reasonable amount of time to appeal and possibly receive a reversal, issue the permanent ban IF the appeal isn't aceptable.
I'm astonished that LL never thought about it and the damage a permanent ban BEFORE appeal can cause.

Better not getting me started about libsecondlife and what i think about that kind of hackering, because i'm already having a stressful day... At least i'm very happy that Kin is back :)
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cinda Hoodoo
my 2cents worth
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 951
08-16-2006 16:47
[/QUOTE]The easiest solution is to avoid issuing permanent bans but just suspend an account at least for a period of time necessary for investigation and only AFTER the resident has had a reasonable amount of time to appeal and possibly receive a reversal, issue the permanent ban IF the appeal isn't aceptable.
I'm astonished that LL never thought about it and the damage a permanent ban BEFORE appeal can cause. [/QUOTE]


Couldnt agree more, LL is based in a country where the legal system says your innocent until proven guilty, think they could use a bit of that in their day to day dealings. I also think that if she cant have her inventory and land restored, LL should pay her restitution in $L to cover not only what she physically lost, but in sales for the time she was banned.
I am sure they are making her feel that shes sooooo lucky to be back in SL that everything else should be forgotten. I also know that if LL had their electricity cut off in error, they would be calling lawyers in immediatly, for loss of sales and customers.

Thinking too this is just another reason the forums should exist, so LL cant cover up and hide from what the SL community thinks and in pulling together can make changes, and from what ive seen its always been for the best of SL.
Dale Glass
Evil Scripter
Join date: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 252
08-16-2006 16:52
From: Shiryu Musashi
The problem is that, as far as i know (may be wrong, but that's what the lindens always told me when something disastrous occurred), a property cannot be rolled back without rolling back the entire sim.

I don't know the details here, but I'm pretty sure they can recover at least the inventory. Then, I don't have much rezzed in-world, so my land getting wiped would annoy me, but wouldn't be anything critical.

From: Shiryu Musashi

Better not getting me started about libsecondlife and what i think about that kind of hackering, because i'm already having a stressful day... At least i'm very happy that Kin is back :)


Well, then you're not going to like to hear that: LL announced the intentions to open source Second Life some time ago (which would mean the protocol would be public), and as far as I can tell, LL is already giving some help to libsecondlife. A look at the mailing lists suggests that LL knows perfectly well what's going on, and things are friendly.

Like I was saying, in this state of things, bans by hardware are pretty much dead. But it's not like it was going to work for long otherwise, anyway.
Shiryu Musashi
Veteran Designer
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,045
08-16-2006 17:21
From: Dale Glass
I don't know the details here, but I'm pretty sure they can recover at least the inventory. Then, I don't have much rezzed in-world, so my land getting wiped would annoy me, but wouldn't be anything critical.


I'm fairly sure that the inventory isn't lost, character data is separate from land data. But loosing a build, even if it's still in the inventory, can be disastrous depending on size and complexity. If i had to rerez and rebuild my own shop completely, including all the vendors and the offices over it, the webshop servers and all, i'd probably just shoot myself in the head ^_^;;
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Devlin Gallant
Thought Police
Join date: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 5,948
08-16-2006 22:11
From: Cow Hand
This thread is effectively dead.


SOMEONE had to Godwin it. :p
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Demian Caldera
..ya, that too...
Join date: 8 Jun 2004
Posts: 249
08-17-2006 17:05
From: Dale Glass
Good for you, but this case proves you can't always trust even your family. If you put your trust into somebody, and they betray it, you don't have anybody to blame for it but yourself (and them). You've decided to take that risk, and it's perfectly fine, so long you then don't start whining here about a friend/family member that used your card getting banned resulting in you getting kicked out as well. Blaming a third party for not considering your familiar disputes isn't very smart.


I agree to that! Taking risks and shutting up....now that's my passion anyway! So if some day I silently disappear, you know why... :D
Hank Ramos
Lifetime Scripter
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,328
08-17-2006 18:00
Linden Labs has shown in the past that they will ban who they wish, violate who they wish, take away from who they wish to fit their needs. You are only a user of the system, not the member of a community. You are a consumer. Pay your money and don't complain, or suffer the consequences.
Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
08-17-2006 20:24
From: Hank Ramos
Linden Labs has shown in the past that they will ban who they wish, violate who they wish, take away from who they wish to fit their needs. You are only a user of the system, not the member of a community. You are a consumer. Pay your money and don't complain, or suffer the consequences.


Words to live by......... :)
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