Talented designer permanently banned over extremely shaky charges...

Today something that in my eyes is an extremely serious problem has been brought to my attention:

http://pixelpinuponline.com/news/goodbye-to-kin-keiko

I Think this matter deserves completely public attention and support.
Now LL gives little or no attention to evident griefers and content thieves, but still bans people just out of something someone else (there's no real proof that's the same person) did two years ago?

I would really like to hear LL's version of the story, and to see the ban decision reversed. Besides the fact that Kin's talent is a resource to us all, LL included, i think this is an absolute injustice, and NEEDS to be reversed. If things like this continue to happen without appeal or a change of pace, people (or at least I) will soon lose the little trust they have in LL's policing.

Amen to that. LL, what in holy hell are you guy's doing???

As far as allocating resources, LL, I'm far more tolerant of bugs in the software than I am of such ham-handed, "zero-tolerance" style enforcement.

I've read Lindens (including and especially Robin) say that resortig to IP bans and the like were to be avoided as you could not tell alts from individuals. Well, here you all are proving how poorly blanket bans work.

Of course, Kin can't e-mail and expect much to be done. LL no longer answers e-mail, if the constant flow of stories about unanswered e-mail are to be belived (and considering the sheer volume, I think they can be belived). And appearantly giving LL a call nets action only sporadically. So, we lose a tallented designer, a contributor to the world.

Unacceptable, LL. Totally unacceptable.

I dont dare to write here.

/Tina

Despicable. I hope there's another side to the story.

Exactly why i'd like to hear LL's justification over this. Even if honestly i doubt there's any.

She needs to get on the phone as soon as they open Monday and tell them to give her the money at the very least, thats hi way robbery...figures you can get in, but you cant get your money out, smacks of something here, what am i reaching for, would it be thievery??

Why on earth would LL do this?? I don't know much about this, but why?? Then others are allowed to grief and give others problems, steal, etc. This is a designer with no time for doing these other horrible things that are left to go on.

That sucks.

But fortunately for LL, they won't have to listen to the bothersome opinions of you plebs about actions like this for too much longer!

WTF??

Is this because they were using the same computer or card or what?

Give her back her hard earned Lindens at least, damn!

No punishment for stealing, even when LL does it? Bullshit!

Unbelievable.

If this is true, that's just disgraceful.

Yeah ;0 I would so be kicking my older brother's ass right now...

I definately think other dignified rears would deserve a much harder kicking....

While the situation indeed sucks, what do you expect them to do? Call her and discuss who was actually logged in?

From one side, LL have lots of people asking for stronger enforcement. Now on the other side, they have people complaining about the same enforcement. Hello?



Well, I can't read their mind, but here's my guess.

Initially, we had a credit card requirement, and it was (fairly) good. Then they opened up registration. Lots and lots of people started complaining (and rightfully so) that now they can't reliably ban anybody, lists are too short, etc. Some of the complaints were specifically about that now with the lack of credit card requirement it's very easy for anybody to continue creating accounts.

And now, you're complaining about the same system working exactly as intended. Sure, it sucks for her, but what do you really expect from LL? If they let people come back, there'll eventually be people whining about old griefers being allowed back. And if they don't, they'll whine about losing a designer instead. It's an unwinnable situation.

What probably got her banned is not a person, but some mechanism along the lines of "if card number is in ban list, ban". LL obviously can't investigate personally every person and decide whether they're evil or just happen to have stupidly shared their card with somebody who is. But I suppose that with enough outcry they can make an exception.

There's also a lesson in all this: Do not share your credit card!. Sheesh. A credit card is like a toothbrush, it's supposed to be used only by you.

Sigh.. I guess LL turned evil somewhere along the line... These kind of threads are why their destroying the forums though. Cuz they don't wan't to look bad. :/ The thing is if they don't want to look bad then stop doing bad things... Instead of destroying the community they should try to sell SL to someone who apreciate it more.

It's difficult for anyone to make a judgement without knowing all the facts, something none of us will ever have. But if, as it seems, the mac address/ip/cc info was shared by someone who has been banned (and it takes some doing to get a perma ban), then I have to agree with Dale :/

Maybe they didnt share a credit card. They might have bought a Second Life gift certificate for a friend/relative with their credit card, as I have several times.

I'd sure fucking hope that I wouldn't get banned along with them for bothering to buy them an account, but then nothing LL does any more surprises me.

If that's the case, then the person gave an empty gift, and it's them to blame. I am not happy with many of LL's decisions either, but I don't know how anyone can expect them to police a senario like the one you have proposed as a possibility. The fact is, we have no facts to come to a conclusion, though.

Well, from the post:


To me this sounds like her brother registered using a credit card number (as it was required then), then two years later she tried to transfer payment to the same number. Some system in LL looked in the ban database and went "Aha! We banned you before". And there you go. I don't really see how a gift certificate would fit in here, but maybe I'm missing something.

This is very sad and unfortunate, But if the facts are correct and she was banned for her brothers ban. Then she clearly had to be using the same CC or paypal as him, if the ban happened, do to them double checking her info when she tried to withdraw money.

I am thinking its more along the lines of a Paypal account as that they would be double checked against a know list of banned paypal accounts or maby she requested a check to be mailed and it had the same adress as the permaban account.

very sad indeed but if she did use the same paypal then the ban would be justified. LL cant not verify individuals all they have to go on is the info we give them and if her info or some of it matched a permaban account then that account will be banned also.

and Kris you CC you used to buy a gift account will not show up in the recipients account info.

Regardless what happen this person was using the same financial info as the banned account.
This would not have happened had she been using her own financial information. I am basing this on the fact that she was banned only after she tried to with draw money. and at that stage i think they are just checking financials. not Ip address or mac address or system config. that all would of been done before and if that matched she would of been banned earlier.

They claim they can't ban or punish content thieves in any way because they don't have enough proof, well. They definately have NO proof than two avatars using the same financial incormation are the same person, so NO ban should occur.
You're right, they can't verify, and as such, they should stop acting like steamrollers when in MUCH more serious and clear cut issues they are frightened even just by moving on tiptoes.
They should just be ashamed and not only reverse the ban, but even post a public apology about the extreely hectic and conflicting behavioir they're having lately.

I sympathise for you and your friend Shiryu, but how else can LL identify people other than by payment details and IP, etc? It has always been the way that bannings are based on these things, and I can't see any way around it :/ The important thing is to be aware of this, and realise that if you put someone elses account on your CC, or, if your account is on someone elses CC, then you're putting a lot of trust in someone else.

What do you suggest should have been done?

So nobody should ever get banned? Because that's what you're implying here. There are absolutely no 100% reliable ways for LL to identify somebody. And how about that guy who repeatedly brought the whole grid down, should we just let him continue?

Let me repeat: If you share your financial info with anybody, even your parents or best friend, you're stupid. These days it's not just LL, you can have your whole life screwed by letting somebody else have it.

The "content thieves" thing is because indeed they can't. It'd degenerate in a yelling match of "it's my design" vs "no, it's MY design", and wouldn't get anywhere. They'd effectively have to set up a court to deal with that sort of thing.

On the other hand, permanent bans for things like using exploits and bringing down the grid are very easy, as they happen right in LL's domain.

First of all, it's not about a friend, i don't even know her personally, but knowing her or not, i definately will not see such a thing happen ans stay silent.

LL opened registration, not even REQUIRING financial information to play, and then ban people according to it? It's absolutely senseless. By giving up the need of financial registration they effectively shown they have NO intention of actually identifying people.
Or maybe this means that people that actually PAY for this game have more disadvantages that people that don't?
As i said, absolutely senseless, and shameful.



And you should most definately watch your words.

It's very easy to point out where the system went wrong....

Can you provide them with a fault proof identification method with minimal costs that inconveniences to end user no no way what so ever?

I think you could sell that technology for millions.