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Talented designer permanently banned over extremely shaky charges...

Miriel Enfield
Prim Junkie
Join date: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 389
08-14-2006 09:21
From: Dale Glass
Initially, we had a credit card requirement, and it was (fairly) good. Then they opened up registration. Lots and lots of people started complaining (and rightfully so) that now they can't reliably ban anybody, lists are too short, etc. Some of the complaints were specifically about that now with the lack of credit card requirement it's very easy for anybody to continue creating accounts.

And now, you're complaining about the same system working exactly as intended. Sure, it sucks for her, but what do you really expect from LL? If they let people come back, there'll eventually be people whining about old griefers being allowed back. And if they don't, they'll whine about losing a designer instead. It's an unwinnable situation.

While I'm sorry that this happened to Kin, I have to agree with Dale. "My brother did it" is a very, very easy excuse to use; you effectively can't permanently ban anyone if you let people back whenever they blame their family/friends/dog. If you think permanent bans are a good idea -- and you may not -- then "it wasn't me, it was my brother" just doesn't cut it.

Is Kin innocent? Probably. I don't know her; I do like her hair. I wish this hadn't happened to her. But plenty of people who aren't innocent could also blame their relatives. And if they're let back in and proceed to cause trouble, there would be shrieking -- probably from many of the same people complaining now -- about how LL is incompetent and doesn't care about dealing with griefers and doesn't understand the problems of residents. Like so many other issues on the forums, LL just can't win.
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VolatileWhimsy Bu
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,492
08-14-2006 09:30
From: Queenie Extraordinaire
Ya know what? When you have been around for over 2 years and see the stupid shit after stupid shit that LL does, maybe you'll have a slightly different view.


Your probably correct, but watching ppl say the same stupid shit over in the last two months say alot about the mentality and intelligence of the general public of the forums
Damien Ferris
Registered User
Join date: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 55
08-14-2006 09:33
I think LL really banned her to get out of her making real money? Anche banned, now this girl and both probably had a good amount of lindens. I'm sure once the population in Second Life booms, lindens will take away the ability to exchange lindens for real money.


Out of curiousity, if you cancel your account and once it goes through, is the credit card information still in Second Life's hands or in their database?
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
08-14-2006 09:35
From: VolatileWhimsy Bu
Your probably correct, but watching ppl say the same stupid shit over in the last two months say alot about the mentality and intelligence of the general public of the forums

Actually, I have found hostility and offensiveness to be in higher abundance than stupidity.
Lou Dobbs
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 57
08-14-2006 09:35
Ummm, Anshe is back.

And Kin, however popular, is no where near as popular as some.

(which is too bad, her stuff was awesome)

So it has nothing to do with people "making money".
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
08-14-2006 09:38
From: Chronic Skronski
Lindens, if you're reading, it would be a very good idea to post your side of the story here - even if you feel it is none of our business.


They have a strict policy of not commenting on disciplinary matters - not only to the public, but even to those they discipline - they rarely tell you what it is actually for, and the appeals process is a fucking joke. Actually, their entire arbitrary disciplinary system is a joke.
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Aodhan McDunnough
Gearhead
Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
08-14-2006 09:38
From: Damien Ferris
I think LL really banned her to get out of her making real money?


Absolutely not and there's no info to support that statement. If that were true then they should have banned everyone who uses the Lindex.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Damien. Just because the ban took place before a cash out transaction you can't assume that the cause was the transaction itself. Proof to the contrary is that people regularly trade on the Lindex.
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VolatileWhimsy Bu
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,492
08-14-2006 09:39
From: Hiro Queso
Actually, I have found hostility and offensiveness to be in higher abundance than stupidity.


true, but i equate hostility towards a lack of inteligence..
Joannah Cramer
Registered User
Join date: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,539
08-14-2006 09:42
This is very unfortunate, but am afraid LL was just following its TOS, if in quite misguided and questionable way :<

"2.7 Accounts affiliated with delinquent accounts are subject to remedial actions related to the delinquent account.

In the event an Account is suspended or terminated for your breach of this Agreement or your payment delinquency (in each case as determined in Linden Lab's sole discretion), Linden Lab may suspend or terminate the Account associated with such breach and any or all other Accounts held by you or your affiliates, and your breach shall be deemed to apply to all such Accounts."

In other words, it looks as long as your family members are considered affiliates, they can very well screw things up for you with their own behaviour, for years to come :/

That said, i think it's really unfortunate decision on LL part to choose this course of acion is such vague situation. But their world, their rules, their imagination. Or lack thereof.
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-14-2006 09:45
It would seem to me that it should be a simple matter for Linden Labs to do a review of her case to see if she deserves to be reinstated. The brother's account was apparently terminated years ago, right? And her account is fairly new? In the months that she has been on, have there been ANY complaints against her that are in the least bit like the behavior that got the brother banned? What name was given when each account was signed up for?

No complaints on the girl? Different names given at sign up? No similarity between what the brother did that got him banned, and what the girl did while here? Then give her the benefit of the doubt, and let her cash out her funds.

There are many cases where two SL users might have the same financial dara for their account. I signed up for SL using a PayPal account that is jointly used by myself and a business partner, who also is in SL once in a while. Different e-mail addresses used for the Pay Pal transactions, but it goes to the same root account. I am married in RL. My mate and I both share a credit card that I could easily have used to sign up for SL. Same card number, different name on the card. Other cards that my RL mate and I have joint accounts on are different by only one digit on the card number, but what the bank identifies as the 'account ID' part of the number is still identical. When I was younger and still single, I had a joint card with my parents, that I used to pay for my tuition and school supplies in college. They paid the bills and got the staements, but my name was on the card. I am fairly sure that with any of those cards, if one of the other card holders was also an SL user, and got banned, my own card would trigger a similar red flag to Linden Labs.

We do need strict rules to ensure that griefers and thieves don't profit from malicuious actions that get them banned and get their assets confiscated. But we also need the possibility of a human, conscious-effort review of the facts if someone feels wrongly punished. Linden Labs is not a computer, operated by inflexible rules. It is a company with Human employees, and they should act like Humans, and give her case a review.
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Lou Dobbs
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 57
08-14-2006 09:47
From: Cristiano Midnight
They have a strict policy of not commenting on disciplinary matters - not only to the public, but even to those they discipline - they rarely tell you what it is actually for, and the appeals process is a fucking joke. Actually, their entire arbitrary disciplinary system is a joke.


Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
08-14-2006 09:51
From: VolatileWhimsy Bu
true, but i equate hostility towards a lack of inteligence..


I am hostile at this point, and certainly not unintelligent - I tend to find presumption to be a better indicator of lack of intelligence. Many people are simply angry, disillusioned, and fed up with what has been happening with SL, especially if they have seen it go down hill over time. It doesn't make them unintelligent.
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Namssor Daguerre
Imitates life
Join date: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,423
08-14-2006 09:51
It certainly sounds like the attrition rate of good people is unneccesarily high at the moment. Also, the current system of checks and balances can most certainly be improved. It makes swiss cheese look like a nuclear containment facility.

A four year old I know well recently asked me - "What would happen if there were only BAD people in the world?" My answer was - "Without GOOD people there really wouldn't be a world".

We better fight for the good people here before SL turns into S(Hell), then blinks into oblivion.
Lou Dobbs
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 57
08-14-2006 09:54
From: Cristiano Midnight
They have a strict policy of not commenting on disciplinary matters - not only to the public, but even to those they discipline - they rarely tell you what it is actually for, and the appeals process is a fucking joke. Actually, their entire arbitrary disciplinary system is a joke.


VolatileWhimsy Bu
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,492
08-14-2006 09:55
From: Cristiano Midnight
I am hostile at this point, and certainly not unintelligent - I tend to find presumption to be a better indicator of lack of intelligence. Many people are simply angry, disillusioned, and fed up with what has been happening with SL, especially if they have seen it go down hill over time. It doesn't make them unintelligent.


and you are hostile because you feel something is going on.. even though you do not have all the facts.. which is impossible at this time...
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
08-14-2006 09:58
From: VolatileWhimsy Bu
true, but i equate hostility towards a lack of inteligence..


That's your own problem to overcome, not an objective reality that will lead to any great deal of self reflection.
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
VolatileWhimsy Bu
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,492
08-14-2006 09:59
From: Reitsuki Kojima
That's your own problem to overcome, not an objective reality that will lead to any great deal of self reflection.


using words for the sake of using them means nothing...
Fmeh Tagore
Just another fat guy
Join date: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 670
08-14-2006 10:01
Like I said, I hope there's another side to the story. IF, I repeat, IF this one side that people are talking about is correct, then the actions are despicable, but there's really no way to know. I'm going to be in the center of the fence on this issue until I know the facts.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
08-14-2006 10:10
From: VolatileWhimsy Bu
and you are hostile because you feel something is going on.. even though you do not have all the facts.. which is impossible at this time...


I'm not hostile about this situation, just in general in regards to LL's actions - I didn't comment about this situation at all. You were speaking generally about the hostility you have seen from people and attributing that to lack of intelligence. I don't know the designer in question. I do at least hope there is some appeals process she can go through, though I have never known anyone who has been able to appeal a disciplinary decision successfully.
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Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
08-14-2006 10:12
The problem isn't the banning per se, but the lack of responsiveness on the part of LL when it comes to trying to get this kind of thing corrected.
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VolatileWhimsy Bu
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,492
08-14-2006 10:14
From: Cristiano Midnight
I have never known anyone who has been able to appeal a disciplinary decision successfully.


Do you think they aren't sending the appeal to the correct place?
Maaliyah Latrell
Registered User
Join date: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6
08-14-2006 10:16
read about it here

Hmmmm seems like this person in question has been around for 2 years and has created a few other accounts before. All this sounds just a wee bit too weird for me.

It's unfortunate that this person was banned just recently. I happened to be a huge found of her work and simply saddened that I didn't get a chance to get all the hairstyles that I wanted.

I'm not sure how banning processes work and sure as heck don't know how the registration process works. But I would think supplying the same financial account info from the get go would be cause to no account being created in the first place. Obviously there is more to this story than we're aware of.
Iron Perth
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 802
08-14-2006 10:17
From: Francis Chung
Unbelievable.

If this is true, that's just disgraceful.


Agreed.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
08-14-2006 10:17
From: VolatileWhimsy Bu
Do you think they aren't sending the appeal to the correct place?


No, they are sending it to the correct place - the TOS warning letter contains an address to appeal to. They don't give any courtesy of response one way or another - it is just a black hole. For the past three years, they have been notorious for this - it is nothing new.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.

Iris Ophelia
Blue-Stocking Suffragette
Join date: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 138
08-14-2006 10:18
From: VolatileWhimsy Bu
and you are hostile because you feel something is going on.. even though you do not have all the facts.. which is impossible at this time...


So say we only ever hear that side. We only ever here the "victim's" side of countless horror stories, and LL never says anything about their side. We can't get mad? The fact is that this isn't just one story alone. It's a repeting flaw in the disciplinary system which Cristiano has experienced himself, and you haven't, and just because LL doesn't make statement doesn't mean we should just sit and stare at our feet. Ultimately unless we DO get "hostile", the chances of anything happening, even the revelation of more info, are 0%.
The difference with thiscase getting attention now is that it seems completely unprovoked on her part, and she was a productive and well-mannered person by all accounts, so she's a great figurehead to draw attention to the issue. We'll still likely never get an answer, but the hostility is a necessary evil.
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