Warning! Self-replicating Land Scanner on many sims!
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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03-13-2005 07:51
From: Talen Morgan Not that any of you will actually care because I believe the majority of you would rather lynch someone ....but last night Pete, Ingrid, and myself tested his scanners in boardman. We tested for approximately an hour both with the scanners running and with the scanners off. The resources used up were negligable at best ....in fact after it was off we noticed several other scripts in the sim that really made a significant impact such as the wonderful visitor list makers that everyone has set to scan every 0.1 secs and of course the wonderful scrubbies that tell people sim FPS but dont tell people they hit the sims resources too.
when monitoring run tasks it was between 71-74% when the scanners were on and between 68-74% when scanners were off. Sim FPS fluctuated between 1800-2500FPS both when the scanners were on and when they were off. There was no noticable dip in resources when the scanners came on or went off.
Also I might add that there are other people who have scanners active in sims ...quite a lot and it cant be known what impact they have or how they are running ...I can only account for the test we did on petes.
If you really want to bitch about something eating up sim resources I would suggest going after visitor list makers seeing as there are literally thousands of them out there.
ok end of public service announcement you may go back to your regularly sponored rants. Once again. For the bajilliomteenth time. Lag is one issue. But only one issue. It's not even the most important one, by a long shot. That having been said, your own tests confirmed they do impact a sim. Only slightly, perhaps. But they impact every sim on the grid. And sims that are already having problems will be hit even harder (Negative effects seem to magnify each other). And in 99% of these sims, Pete owns no land. Individualy, that one single spyware program you have festering on your hard-drive probably doesn't take up many resources, either. So spyware is fine, right?
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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03-13-2005 07:54
From: Reitsuki Kojima Once again. For the bajilliomteenth time. Lag is one issue. But only one issue. It's not even the most important one, by a long shot.
That having been said, your own tests confirmed they do impact a sim. Only slightly, perhaps. But they impact every sim on the grid. And sims that are already having problems will be hit even harder (Negative effects seem to magnify each other). And in 99% of these sims, Pete owns no land.
Individualy, that one single spyware program you have festering on your hard-drive probably doesn't take up many resources, either.
So spyware is fine, right? I just posted the facts as I recorded them ...and I can say withought a doubt that certain other objects in the sim at the time of the test had more impact.
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Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life 
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
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03-13-2005 08:00
If this all gobbly-gook to you, let me point you to this section of the script:
sensor(integer n) {
integer i;
key k;
for(i = 0; i < n; i++) {
string pos;
k = llDetectedKey(i);
if((llDetectedOwner(i) == pfKey) && (k != lastSeen)) { // found a new one
report(k, llDetectedPos(i));
}
}
In lay terms, land scan and position report.
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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03-13-2005 08:01
From: Talen Morgan Not that any of you will actually care because I believe the majority of you would rather lynch someone .... I'm responding to this as a seperate post, because it's a statement I've seen from a number of people on this thread. This is not an abstract desire to lynch someone. The fact is, we have serious complaints about whats going on. It has nothing to do with who is doing this. I would have the same complaints if it was my best friend doing this and I just found out about it, or a random newbie... My complaints aren't intrinsicly tied to who did this. I don't even particularly have a problem with Pete. I have a problem with the /actions/. On the flip side of that, however, I have a sneeking suspision that half of the defenders in this thread would not have the same views if it was a random newbie, or someone that was generally disliked. *shrug* In the meantime, feel free to try to dismiss the complaints by claiming we're just out to get someone. It doesn't really do anything, so whatever floats your boat.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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03-13-2005 08:02
From: Talen Morgan I just posted the facts as I recorded them ...and I can say withought a doubt that certain other objects in the sim at the time of the test had more impact. Yes. And we've heard these facts before. Hell, we heard them from Chance too. They simply are irrelivent to the issue at hand.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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03-13-2005 08:10
From: Reitsuki Kojima I'm responding to this as a seperate post, because it's a statement I've seen from a number of people on this thread.
This is not an abstract desire to lynch someone. The fact is, we have serious complaints about whats going on. It has nothing to do with who is doing this. I would have the same complaints if it was my best friend doing this and I just found out about it, or a random newbie... My complaints aren't intrinsicly tied to who did this. I don't even particularly have a problem with Pete. I have a problem with the /actions/.
On the flip side of that, however, I have a sneeking suspision that half of the defenders in this thread would not have the same views if it was a random newbie, or someone that was generally disliked.
*shrug*
In the meantime, feel free to try to dismiss the complaints by claiming we're just out to get someone. It doesn't really do anything, so whatever floats your boat. Although you haven't acted with a lynch mob mentality there are a few people here who have and it is very clear. I didn't dismiss any complaints I just stated what I noted testing these objects. Yes, some people here have serious complaints and concerns...and others have other agendas as is usual in the forums....the majority of both camps havent even bothered to do the one thing that could answer their questions.....and thats ask pete...thats how last nights testing came about. Just so you know I barely know pete we've met all of maybe 3 times in world counting last night.
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Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life
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Foolish Frost
Grand Technomancer
Join date: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,433
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03-13-2005 08:15
Ok, could I get a little clairity here?
Are we all on the rampage because these nano-drones are allowing land grabbing, or because we don't want them boggin down the sims. Or is it because we want privacy? I was taking it that the main complaint was over the bogging down of the server, but it seems that the focus keeps shifting...
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Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
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03-13-2005 08:17
From: Hank Ramos Just to bring some reality into this whole discussion... 1. The Lindens have found no TOS violation. 2. Pete Fats doesn't care what we all think 3. Whining about it in the forums is getting everyone nowhere. So, I'd suggest either taking some kind of action instead. Abiding by the TOS, of course  I'd suggest the "action" required is a minor ammedment to the TOS. Using devices to spy or evesdrop are clearly against the TOS. Spy sattelites ought to be too. If the wording of the TOS permits spy sattelites then I think the wording needs to be fixed. |
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
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03-13-2005 08:20
From: Buster Peel I'd suggest the "action" required is a minor ammedment to the TOS. Using devices to spy or evesdrop are clearly against the TOS. Spy sattelites ought to be too. If the wording of the TOS permits spy sattelites then I think the wording needs to be fixed. Good point |
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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03-13-2005 08:20
From: Reitsuki Kojima Yes. And we've heard these facts before. Hell, we heard them from Chance too.
They simply are irrelivent to the issue at hand. Chance small also placed objects on peoples land that counted aginst their prims without the land owners permission which was what got people seriously pissed. Petes objects arent placed on peoples land....as I saw it they fly to a specific coordinate get information and derez.
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Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life
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Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
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03-13-2005 08:24
From: Eggy Lippmann
Summarizing:
- Self-replicating: GOOD
- World-traveling: GOOD
- Gathering public info: GOOD
- Lag: BAD
- Drama: BAD
You left out: - Elusive secretive stealthy hidden detection-avoiding unmanned invisible little tiny scripted thingies over your land: BAD |
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Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
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03-13-2005 08:31
From: Weedy Herbst That might be viewed as grieving, in fact probably. GREAT Freudian slip there! Grieving indeed! Actually it is the GriefEES wo are grieving  |
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
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03-13-2005 08:33
From: Foolish Frost Ok, could I get a little clairity here?
Are we all on the rampage because these nano-drones are allowing land grabbing, or because we don't want them boggin down the sims. Or is it because we want privacy? I was taking it that the main complaint was over the bogging down of the server, but it seems that the focus keeps shifting... Lag, land scanning and privacy are side issues. The main issue is these bots are being used on property not owned by the owner of the bots, or the recipient of the data. Many land owners find this offensive. The current tools are ineffective to remove these. It is an "grey area" exploit which skirts the rules. |
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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03-13-2005 08:39
From: Weedy Herbst Lag, land scanning and privacy are side issues. The main issue is these bots are being used on property not owned by the owner of the bots, or the recipient of the data. Many land owners find this offensive. The current tools are ineffective to remove these. It is an "grey area" exploit which skirts the rules. these objects fly to specific coordinates in sims which is a very gray area considering planes, balloons, hoverboards etc. also fly to coordinates in sims and fly over peoples property without affecting the land owners prims. So if the scanning, and privacy issues are side issues how are you being affected by the main issue as you see it? I'm not 100% positive because I forgot to ask pete but I believe these objects are phantom and temporary on rez so they shouldn't affect any land owners prim allotments and since they are rezzed on his property and fly out from there they arent placed on anyones land.
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Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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03-13-2005 08:41
From: Talen Morgan Chance small also placed objects on peoples land that counted aginst their prims without the land owners permission which was what got people seriously pissed. Petes objects arent placed on peoples land....as I saw it they fly to a specific coordinate get information and derez. Chance had objects on people's land without their permission. Pete has objects on people's land without their permission. I'm not seeing the difference. Wait, yes, I am. At least with Chance's system, if you didn't want it there, it was as easy as flying up and clicking "return". With Pete's system, it comes back seconds later.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
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03-13-2005 08:43
From: Talen Morgan these objects fly to specific coordinates in sims which is a very gray area considering planes, balloons, hoverboards etc. also fly to coordinates in sims and fly over peoples property without affecting the land owners prims. So if the scanning, and privacy issues are side issues how are you being affected by the main issue as you see it? I'm not 100% positive because I forgot to ask pete but I believe these objects are phantom and temporary on rez so they shouldn't affect any land owners prim allotments and since they are rezzed on his property and fly out from there they arent placed on anyones land. They ARE placed on peoples land, its a 3d world, so the fact the z axis is 400m, is no excuse. |
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Tcoz Bach
Tyrell Victim
Join date: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 973
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03-13-2005 08:45
From my perspective:
- No player should be entitled to use the whole grid as some kind of personal information pool and sandbox, and that is exactly what Pete is doing. His invasive objects are the equivalent of spyware or IEfets cookies. They are not permanent, probably aren't collecting any info I really care about, may not generate significant lag, but they appear without my permission and are extremely undesirable. I DON'T WANT THEM OVER MY LAND, EVER.
- Before using anybody's information, in any way, you should ask permission. Always. As has been pointed out, this is not the real world. There is no dire need for this info, and you have the opportunity to be considerate, ensuring that you are not upsetting anybody by collecting their info and using it for your own gain. Pete has decided to disregard anybody's personal feelings with the sentiment, "how is this impacting you? Stop whining because you can't stop me, so as you were".
Want this to end? EVERYBODY do it. LAG the grid. Let's get THOUSANDS of objects going. You're obviously not violating the TOS, so nobody will get into any trouble. The Lindens will then be forced to make policy regarding it, or we'll discover that you can keep doing it, in which case you may as well just write SL off as a spreadsheet for any would-be stats major.
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** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? **
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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03-13-2005 08:49
From: Reitsuki Kojima Chance had objects on people's land without their permission.
Pete has objects on people's land without their permission.
I'm not seeing the difference.
Wait, yes, I am.
At least with Chance's system, if you didn't want it there, it was as easy as flying up and clicking "return".
With Pete's system, it comes back seconds later. Yes, chance placed things on peoples land that used the land resources. If i'm correct petes fly from his land to other sims and take no resources from anyones land prims. So by your statement airplanes, balloons etc are doing the same thing when they fly over someones property and stop...how about if i'm flying my balloon and I hover over your property for an hour...and I come back an hour later? From my tests petes objects dont reappear in seconds it was roughly a minute or two between returns.
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Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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03-13-2005 08:50
From: Weedy Herbst They ARE placed on peoples land, its a 3d world, so the fact the z axis is 400m, is no excuse. did it count aginst your prims on the land? No one mentioned the z axis and it has no meaning to what I was saying.
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Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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03-13-2005 08:54
From: Talen Morgan Yes, chance placed things on peoples land that used the land resources. If i'm correct petes fly from his land to other sims and take no resources from anyones land prims. It's not about resources. It's about them being on my land, period. The fact that I'm unable to remove them makes it worse. Pete isn't taking me resources, strictly speaking, no. What he is doing, however, is using resources he hasn't payed for, considerably beyond the realm of what I would consider "fair use". From: Talen Morgan So by your statement airplanes, balloons etc are doing the same thing when they fly over someones property and stop...how about if i'm flying my balloon and I hover over your property for an hour...and I come back an hour later?. Case in point. Vehicles. Vehicles I consider fair use. They involve an avatar. That said, if you leave that vehicle on my land, I'm going to return it. Or if I'm suspisious of that vehicle (For example, you go around flying on a plywood cube named "Scan-plane" , I'm probably going to return it right out from under you. But in both cases, I'm able to return it, and can keep doing so until you get tired of trying to rez it on my land. From: Talen Morgan From my tests petes objects dont reappear in seconds it was roughly a minute or two between returns. This would not match up with my own tests, which place it at somewhere around 30 second intervals.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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03-13-2005 08:57
From: Tcoz Bach - No player should be entitled to use the whole grid as some kind of personal information pool and sandbox, and that is exactly what Pete is doing. His invasive objects are the equivalent of spyware or IEfets cookies. They are not permanent, probably aren't collecting any info I really care about, may not generate significant lag, but they appear without my permission and are extremely undesirable. I DON'T WANT THEM OVER MY LAND, EVER. *best southern evangelical preacher impression* Hallelujah! Sing it Brother! *clears his throat* Really. You said what I've been trying to say perfectly in a paragraph. I salute you.
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
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03-13-2005 08:57
From: Tcoz Bach From my perspective:
- No player should be entitled to use the whole grid as some kind of personal information pool and sandbox, and that is exactly what Pete is doing. His invasive objects are the equivalent of spyware or IEfets cookies. They are not permanent, probably aren't collecting any info I really care about, may not generate significant lag, but they appear without my permission and are extremely undesirable. I DON'T WANT THEM OVER MY LAND, EVER.
- Before using anybody's information, in any way, you should ask permission. Always. As has been pointed out, this is not the real world. There is no dire need for this info, and you have the opportunity to be considerate, ensuring that you are not upsetting anybody by collecting their info and using it for your own gain. Pete has decided to disregard anybody's personal feelings with the sentiment, "how is this impacting you? Stop whining because you can't stop me, so as you were".
Want this to end? EVERYBODY do it. LAG the grid. Let's get THOUSANDS of objects going. You're obviously not violating the TOS, so nobody will get into any trouble. The Lindens will then be forced to make policy regarding it, or we'll discover that you can keep doing it, in which case you may as well just write SL off as a spreadsheet for any would-be stats major. Excellent post Tcoz. I asked Robin about IMing by script for objects rezzed on my land. /invalid_link.htmlShe made it clear. It is "very reasonable", however, I will comply with her request not to use a script to do so until the release of 1.6. If I find that the tools in 1.6 are ineffective, I will drop my script on my land. One IM per object is not unreasonable. Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire. |
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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03-13-2005 09:03
From: Reitsuki Kojima It's not about resources. It's about them being on my land, period. The fact that I'm unable to remove them makes it worse. Pete isn't taking me resources, strictly speaking, no. What he is doing, however, is using resources he hasn't payed for, considerably beyond the realm of what I would consider "fair use". Case in point. Vehicles. Vehicles I consider fair use. They involve an avatar. That said, if you leave that vehicle on my land, I'm going to return it. Or if I'm suspisious of that vehicle (For example, you go around flying on a plywood cube named "Scan-plane" , I'm probably going to return it right out from under you. But in both cases, I'm able to return it, and can keep doing so until you get tired of trying to rez it on my land. This would not match up with my own tests, which place it at somewhere around 30 second intervals. ok what about planes that ghost over your land? you cant remove it technically without relogging. better yet lets say I buy 3 zeppelins from Cubey and put big advertisements for my shops on them and i fly that over your sim and your land every few minutes?...i'm not using your resources but I am over your land repeatedly.... So far i've seen it mentioned that its not about resources...its not about scanning...its not about lag ect from multiple people....if its not about these things what is it about? things fly over peoples properties constantly without their knowing it and yet I don't see threads on how Cubey is a terrorist because his vehicles fly over peoples land.
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Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life
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Shiryu Musashi
Veteran Designer
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,045
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03-13-2005 09:10
From: Talen Morgan ok what about planes that ghost over your land? you cant remove it technically without relogging.
A ghosted vehicle is NOT there, doesn't take any sim resources, you simply see it, the sim doesn't even actually know it's name. From: someone
better yet lets say I buy 3 zeppelins from Cubey and put big advertisements for my shops on them and i fly that over your sim and your land every few minutes?...i'm not using your resources but I am over your land repeatedly....
Cubey actually does it, with his zeppelins flying around, but ythey are FEW and FAR BETWEEN, inn no way they are different from any manned vehichle and guess what? you can RETURN them. RETURNABLE RETURNABLE RETURNABLE RETURNABLE After 200 posts still there is someone that doesn't get this ENORMOUS difference? Or maybe they get it but chose to ignore it. |
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Kats Kothari
Disturbingly Cute
Join date: 14 Aug 2003
Posts: 556
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03-13-2005 09:11
From: Talen Morgan ok what about planes that ghost over your land? you cant remove it technically without relogging.
better yet lets say I buy 3 zeppelins from Cubey and put big advertisements for my shops on them and i fly that over your sim and your land every few minutes?...i'm not using your resources but I am over your land repeatedly....
So far i've seen it mentioned that its not about resources...its not about scanning...its not about lag ect from multiple people....if its not about these things what is it about? things fly over peoples properties constantly without their knowing it and yet I don't see threads on how Cubey is a terrorist because his vehicles fly over peoples land. Eventually, planes and vehicles will leave the sim and the resources that they were using will be returned (e.g. the sims' performance will go back to it's normal state). These little scanners are constant in a sim and keep eating up the resources. After 1.6 we will be able to return them by checking our land settings menu. However, given that these scanners keep returning after 15-30 seconds, a player will have to keep refreshing their menu constantly just to be able to get rid of them.
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Maker of many kawaii items: Dolls, huggable plushies, and purses with cute critters. Visit Kats' Kreatures for a better look and feel free to explore! =^_^= Kats' Kreatures Gualala (140,9) "The cat is cryptic, and close to strange things which men cannot see..." - H.P. Lovecraft
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