Gorean justice

*pets teh neko*

And if this one finds your hateful language and attack on her offensive, should she then ban you and all others who are involved with whatever groups you are involved in from areas she has access to?

The RP that this girl participates in is one that she has decided upon and yes, she DOES enjoy after a very long hard day at work, thank you for asking.

This girl is not trolling the boards, she's simply taking part in a conversation that has been ongoing. Unlike you she has stuck to the rules of the board and not engaged in personal attacks. She has been open minded and is willing to debate and discuss views.

There are NO furries on Gor, that's something that doesnt seem to be coming across. If you can find one entry in any of the books that speak of a furry, please do so and bring it to the attention of all Goreans.

The only entry this girl can think of is not of a furry, but a "spider person".

Furries on Gor or not, it holds that if Goreans can ban Furries for whatever reason they like, then anyone can ban Goreans for whatever reason they like. No? In other words, if it's OK for Goreans to do, why isn't OK for someone who finds nadu cringeworthy to ban Goreans from their plot of land?

you mean I wont be able to go to the gorean sims? omfg!!! my SL is in ruins!!!!

I've got great respect for all forms of roleplay - and am no newbie to it either from a RL perspective. I've just chosen a path in SL that keeps me rather, well.. <cough> sheltered

If you're roleplaying, no matter what it is, more power to you... I think it should be encouraged, and has a lot of posibilities for interesting content. The fact that a topic of roleplay is contreversial just makes it more interesting.

However, it crosses the line from roleplaying into potential griefing/harrassment when you involve others that didn't consent to roleplay with you. No matter what the circumstances, it's important to pop out of roleplaying mode into "SL Citizen" mode, when someone not roleplaying with you is involved. And involved can even mean 'standing nearby' in a public place.

The exception being, when you're in the privacy of your own home (or sim, in this case).

This idea is not limited to Gor roleplay. I felt the same way about a mafia roleplay debate over a year ago.

For what it's worth...I'll reiterate MY view. I own a Gorean sim. We have very strict laws in place. I expect people visiting to comply. If I go shopping...or travelling across the REST of SL AWAY from "gor", then I EQUALLY expect to abide by other people's rulings.
Most places don't have them. Cool. Others do.
Equally cool.
If I want to go into a sim where the dress code is powder pink knee breeches and a ruff, then I have a choice. I'll either leave and not bother. Or I'll dress as requested.
Their land. their rules.
It's called give and take.
It's ROLEPLAYING to me. I'm not a lifestyler, so it's an easy choice to make.
Beyond that....live and let live. And let's not be so judgemental, whether we be Gorean, non-Gorean, Furry..... whatever.
peace.

If you wish to ban someone for kneeling on the ground, that's your perogative. However, I think griefers and those who bash and attack other people would be much more worthy of banning.

(To make you all happy, I will step out of my RP for a moment)
I have not once bashed anyone for their RP methods, if you are in SL you are playing a character, no matter how you play or who you play. You may say "I am myself in SL" yet you are NOT made up of pixals, you are not REAL in Sl.. you are a character.
Everyone plays differently, and that's one of the great aspects of this game.. the diversity.

I have no problem with Furries, have some friends who have been furries, was a furry for a while myself in TSO, however, Goreans are serious RPer's and only ask that those who visit their sim follow the rules of the sim that are posted and presented when you enter.

If you wish to enforce rules on your own land, by all means DO. But make sure those who visit are aware of them, so that they can abide by them.. otherwise how are they to know what you allow on your land?

All I hear about is how BAD Goreans are and how they attack non-Goreans. I have NEVER attacked anyone, not once.
However, I have been shot at and blown up (while on Gorean sims minding my own business), have had IMs pop up with insults from griefers, have had NON-Goreans arrive at the sim and try to molest me, I've had comments posted on my web blog and had emails sent to me calling me a "rapist" a "child molester" and a "psycho"...
Yet, here it's those who are Gorean and RP in the Gorean way that are under attack and persacution... odd how that is.

I for one that does both Furry abd Gorean RP, I do not push nor would I ask anyone to change when I am not on Gorean lands.

I am quite comfortable shopping for something in a fetish shop next to a goth and a furry type, but I am quite open minded.

I am not representitive to all of Gor, as much as I am representitive to all of Furry..

I can attest to that. I've never seen much griefing except when I was in the Gorean sims, done by people who thought Gor made an easy target.



Not sure what you mean by "under attack and persecution." You've picked a role play that obviously makes many people uncomfortable. It should be expected that they will say as much. Simply saying they don't like it isn't pesecution. Calling you an idiot? Yeah, that's an attack. If you think I've overstepped the line, I apologize. It was not my intent.

That said, common courtesy would seem to dictate that you do not carry on sexual roleplay beyond areas where it is explicitly sanctioned, such as a themed sim or property or your own home.

Usually it is the whim of thier Master, in Gorean RP the slaves are property, like a pet or tool. For escaping, the slave will be held by the first Gorean city the slave encounters.. so Gorean land, Gorean law.

As a Furry and a Gorean, 2 separate styles and will stay separate, I have recieved grief from both sides, for being the other. But on both sides the mainstream does not have any problems of me being both.

There are a few that do both, either low-key or proclaim it loudly.

First off im not Gor I've never stated i was. I just repsect other people's right to RP. And if furries arnt part of gorean RP that is their right to not accept that. Its different when your not applying something like that into an RP enviroment. Neko's in anime arnt people wearing a cat ear and tails either they are hybrid creatures. My head wraps around the concept of you being able to do what you wish on your land or whatever. It just makes you look a bit intolerant when its not part of an RP community. Gorean RP isnt allowing furries because its not part of the RP it has nothing to do with intolerance of the RP they are just trying to keep it with in the bounds of what is written in the books and there arnt furries in the gorean culture.

To compare it to say banning someone on your land for their RP tastes is a bit baseless in the sense that your banning out of distaste for it rather then it being a part of the SL community as a whole and if your not partaking in an RP you pretty much have to acknowledge the community as a whole as a spectrum of people your dealing with. Its not a huge difference but there is a difference between the two actions that they dont allow. They simply ask a furry to be human while in their sim big deal everyone in SL can be human quite easily and then they can freely turn back when they leave.

There is also a difference here of something else i'd like to point out. Banning roleplaying with collars and stuff on your land is fine its when you start delving into banning goreans for simply being goreans that it becomes a real issue of intolerance. Have a disclaimer saying no slave/gorean type of RP on this land if its a store or outwardly just express the distaste to perforom the RP in public chat with the girl kneeling with a collar on (which really isnt that irksome).

I gather some of the irksome feelings i myself have them but i am tolerant and respect their right to perform the RP as long as it is not taken beyond what is acceptable (ie basically stripping naked running around and partaking in sexual behavior in public space like a store or invading my home to do so). But that rule applies in general for all of SL to conduct in such a manner. Unless an area is sanctioned for sexual RP be it yiffing or anything they shouldnt be doing it.

The way alot of people say express their discomfort for gor is prosecution however. People have expressed that basically due to their discomfort of certain RP in SL that that RP should be banned. Attacking them by firing on them is also a form of persecution of the RP. Gor makes me uncomfortable at times to but i dont go out and bash them nor do i go out and shoot at them in their own sims. I've never attacked anyone in SL without either first asking permission if i could try out a weapon on them which they knowingly agree to, or if i go to a combat zone/weapon testings. The only non damage area i use weapons anymore is samurai island on a very rare occasion.

Its sad that people feel the need to bash on RP though even if they have discomfort or find it irksome why bash it. It just seems like a methodology to stir up trouble. Im open minded plain and simple things bug me at times but i dont let that influence my opinion of the people involved in those communities. I have friends in real life involved in Sadomasochism which i find really bothersome but they are good pepople. If i let my thoughts on their lifestyle that i dont see influence me i'd miss out on some great friends.

Similarly, you can ask someone to stand and not refer to themselves in 3rd person and they could, if they wish, easily comply. So it's also not a big deal.



Well, says you. I know a lot of people who really are irritated by it. I have been myself, at times.

I come again to my question of what is bashing and what is tolerance.

To me, tolerance includes the following sentiments:

1. I love what you do, keep at it.
   
2. I don't care either way about it, but if it makes you happy, have at it.
   
3. I'm really troubled by what you're doing and think it's unhealthy, but I won't try to stop you
   

Intolerance would include things like:

1. ZOMG! AGEPLAY/SLAVE/FURRY IS TEH SICK!
   
2. We need to ban (X) from SL
   
3. Going to someone's home or sim and trying to disrupt their time in SL
   

Would you agree with those lists or not?

I would agree with those lists. But there are people that plainly refer to themselves in the third person. Its not so weird when they say this girl as it would be if i started saying Lina likes this or that. I dont have a problem asking them not to do it while on your land but i'd say banning them from your land simply because they are gorean is taking it to far. Thats what i mean. The people taking it that far are the ones that scare me. But there are eople that are like ZOMG they must be banned cuz they are sick. Or they resort to calling some people in RP names like rapists or what have you. Thats a form of intolerence as well. Showing distaste for something isnt.

Erm to clarify the first thing on tolerance i dont agree with actually. Thats acceptance rather then tolerance =P

I think the majority of SL players are pretty tolerant of other citizen's role playing. It is when role playing continues outside of its boundaries and becomes harrasing that it becomes a problem. For example; when a Gorean Master insist that not only are Gorean slaves animals but that all submissives are animals; when Star Wars role players think they should be able to swing thier sabers around anywhere; When a Gorean Master insists it is his right to punish or humilate his slave in public; when mafia role players take thier strong arm tactics into the larger community; when a furry insists on only using animal noises and body language to communicate.

Any role playing can become a nuisance if taken to far! There is a time to step out of a role and be practical!

There. I am done on this subject in these forums. *turns my back and walks out shaking my head*

Then explain away those slaves who are sold in RL by the selling of legal contracts termed "for services rendered" by online/offline masters. Think it isn't done? Think again. It happens right here in the US and has been happening for years. Several of those involved in this were in AW 6 years ago and they could very well be running around in SL now. How do I know? I was in AW 6 years ago. Enough said.

This is a good post. The thread has deviated from what happens in Gor sims to outsiders visiting them it looks like.

Of course if people followed this advice there would be a lot less complaining about gor, or furries, or anything else.

Basically if your out in public act like you have manners. If your a guest somewhere private act like a guest or leave.

Now where the nudest colony , nudity mandatory sim .. Im going to go visit there. =pPP

well all i can say is freedom of speech or expression inplies the ability for a person shut your mouth when it is nessecary,or refain from pushing ones ideas on others

Because it's done, it makes it right? Enough said? You are saying that REAL people are buying REAL people which is a REAL legal criminal offence. I think much more needs to be said then an open statement about it and try to 'gracefully' bow out of it. Were you one of those REAL people who were being purchased? Let's also try and bend our brains around the simple notion that perhaps ... now just perhaps ... these people knew there was no REAL LEGAL bindings of this 'sale' and they were living an extention of their RolePlay Fantasy life?

Ever hear of arranging for your mate to 'break into' your house, catch you by surprise. Toss you down and take you right there?

How about a fantasy where you are 'broken down' on the side of the road and that tow truck driver was JUST to hawt to not take advantage of in the back seat of your broken down chevy?

THEY ARE FANTASIES. Fantasies which are played out in real life. Are they wrong? Are they illegal? Make your toes curl?

There is one bottom line to ALL roleplaying sims in SL - if you don't agree to the term of the sim's roleplay, then stay out.

Are Goreans perfect? hell no
Are any other forms of RPers (there are furries, Star Wars, SG1, D/s themed' RP sims - the list goes on and on and on) perfect? hell no

When you put the context of incidents of Goreans purposly going to another sim to create drama against those who purposely come to a Gorean sim to grief, the griefing on Gorean sims WAY out numbers Goreans going to other sims to grief.

Goreans are an 'easy target' for some who get their cheap jollies off of going into a sim with their cute little scripted objects and setting them upon people who are standing around chatting and watching them fly around.

Gorean's don't need to be understood by those who aren't. When it comes down to it, most like the fact that those who don't understand stays out of the Gorean sims. And there are many, MANY Gorean sims - probably more 'specifially themed' sims in all of Second Life that aren't part of a residential network. At last count, there were about 45 Gorean Sims and about 2 or 3 are opened every month. Add in the amount of mainland which is owned and deemed Gorean lands. That is a LOT of people who live a Gorean life in Second Life. Run around the police blotter and figure out how many of those Goreans have been PVP'd for going to a sim and thinking it's "cool" to grief others for the 'hell of it'.

For those who have an interest in learning Gor, not to live it necessarily but to just understand it and clear up questions, most cities will be very welcoming and offering information. Don't get your knickers in a knot when you aren't welcomed to a Gorean sim as a 'mainlander' who's first words are negative about the very sim YOU decided to come to VOLUNTARILY. Our first instinct is to question the intent of 'mainlanders' when they come to the city because of the griefing that is non-stop in Gorean sims.

As far as Goreans shopping in mainland shops, Goreans are PROUD to be who they are. We go and shop and keep to ourselves. Hell, most people can't bend their brains around the language we speak anyways so we don't even try to strike up a conversation. If people are offended by the observations of the Gorean lifestyle, then by all means - push your happy peppy ban button and keep your mind closed as tight as your ... well ... stand up and shake it off for a bit.

Allow me to toss these in ... just cuz ...

"The very instant that i saw you, did my heart fly to your service; there resides, to make me slave to it; and for your sake" ~ W. Shakespeare

"If ever thou be'st bound in thy scarf and beaten, thou shalt find what it is to be proud of thy bondage." ~ W. Shakespeare

Third person speech is actually rare in the books, slaves use their names and first person speech almost all of the time, its only people who have not read the books who believe third person speech is normal on Gor.



Wouldnt Kurii count as furries? The claim that there are no non-human intelligent species on Gor is obviously wrong, I can name four just off the top of my head:

Kurii (eight foot tall nasty furries with lots of teeth and claws, the more advanced ones also fly spaceships and carry laser guns)

Priest-Kings (giant insects like big praying mantises, also very technologically advanced)

Spider People (large intelligent spiders who live in a marsh near Ar)

Urt People (sort of a cross between humans and rats)

Fair enough. You'd probably ruin her RP, but it should be easy enough to find another spot to flee to. If she wanted to get away there she'd simply hand the collar back - if she did not buy it herself anyway - and tell the hunters. 'Ok guys it was fun, but i have other projects now. Thank's for the great RP.'



I think it helps to keep the mindset during the RP. I do not think that you learn to think of yourself as property this way, but it is a good separator from your non-RP-mindset.



Well. First: Human rights are declared inalienable. This means pretty much you can't get rid of them. Following from this every service contract that would demand to give up your human rights would be unenforcable and declared void if ever put to test. So it must be an ongoing and continous decision on the side of the 'slave' to not insist on them.

You could raise the question whether they are psychologically able to consent, but i think this is a question that if in doubt should be assessed with an expert opinion from a trained assessor on a case by case basis, not by the gut-feelings of Joe Sixpack in general.

Hello, everyone.

I am a Gorean roleplayer. I have been roleplaying Gor for several years and I also happen to have a background in more traditional BDSM ideology.

Until recently, I was also the Ubar (supreme military dictator) of the Second Life Gorean roleplay simulator known as Turia. Currently, I am the Chief Scribe of the same sim.

I have greatly enjoyed my time in Second Life and, more specifically, my time in the Second Life interpretation of Gor as practiced in approximately a dozen dedicated roleplay sims.

I wrote the IC (in character) laws of Turia, as well as having had a hefty amount of input on the OOC (out of character) guidelines. In Turia, a slave is a piece of property. By law, the slave, whether the slave be male or female, is the sole possession of a single owner. Should any slave be thought guilty of a crime warranted their death, or execution, the proper judicial paths would be followed in Turia, including a tribunal, or a hearing before the ruling governmental body of the city. With that said, a slave is still, more or less, an object, by legal definition; not unlike a favored non-human pet, or a television. Should a free citizen of the city, or even a free citizen of another city choose, even on a capricious whim, to beat, "abuse" or even kill a slave, there are proper channels to go through to determine the consequences for said free citizen. The penalties range from financial compensation for the lost or damaged article of property all the way to banishment (possibly including an OOC ban in the form of sim-owner tools) from the city. Basically, a slave is a slave. Their lives, names, clothing, property, everything that most of us take for granted, do not belong to them and might be taken away from them without warning.

Many people have difficulty understanding the distinction between the positions of free persons and of slaves. In Gorean society, not all people are considered to be equal. Simply put, the free person is protected by the laws and honored as a whole and rightful person, while the slave is considered to be more akin to a pet, or even an inanimate object. The laws of my city happen to be fairly wide-ranging and usually leave direct interpretation to certain pre-designated authorities, such as Magistrates and a few city officials.

In response to a few of the things I've seen in this thread so far, I would like to say the following:

First of all, third person speech is frowned upon in Turia. It is not common in the books, though it is used by slaves in certain instances.

Secondly, every Gorean simulator I have ever been to offers, upon entry into the sim, a flip title created specifically to identify and keep safe non-Gorean visitors. The only thing that has ever been asked of visitors to Turia is that they do not interfere with the roleplay and they remember that they are a guest in someone else's home. It is the same courtesy that I extend to other land owners when I am visiting their homes. I do not take my chosen role outside of Turia.

Thirdly, I would like it noted, the Gorean sims are targeted quite regularly by griefers. When Turia was first founded, it was on the mainland, not a private island as it is now situated, and one of our neighbors placed large billboards all around the city which read "Jump the wall to freedom". Honestly, I got a kick out of the whole situation and the succeeding mess which followed in these same forums.

Fourth. What we do in our private land is not illegal, or is it immoral. Many of the activities which happen in Second Life would be illegal if they were carried by real people in a real world scenario, but the fact that they take place in an electronic forum in a video game creates the separation. The Mafia is actually classified as a terrorist organization by the United States government and having sexual contact with anyone or anything not of age to willfully consent is generally considered lewd and indecent.

Fifth. There are no urt-people in Gor. There is a group of human women referred to as canal urts, but this is in reference to those individuals living upon the scrabs of food found in the open canal system of the Gorean city of Port Kar as depicted in the books. I have yet to meet a person portraying a canal urt in any Second Life Gorean sim, most notably Port Kar.

Finally, this is my first post ever in these forums, though I do read through them quite regularly. It is not my intention to harm or attack any other citizen of the world of Second Life. If I have, in any way, offended anyone, I do sincerely apologize. Along with trying to teach the citizens of the Gorean sims, most specifically my own city, of the ways, philosophies and daily routines of the culture of the planet called Gor in the writings of John Norman, I have also tried to reinforce to them the realization that our ways are as far from the mainstream as any other seemingly peculiar roleplay, such as furries, vampires, Star Wars, and so on, et cetera, et cetera.

I do not quite understand the attraction that some have to playing a neko, or a vampire (I do kind of like the idea of playing a Jedi, though), but I also remember how disgusted I was by the notions of Gorean attitudes when I was first introduced to the concept, several years ago. Therefore, I try my best to remain respectful in my demeanor, despite a considerable amount of failure to understand the "unusual" choices of my fellow Second Lifers.

It is not always easy to co-exist, but it is necessary, especially in a realm like this one. This place is our world, it is our imagination. We are all equal in our ability to contribute positively to our shared experience, just as we are all capable of belittling, demeaning, and outright insulting those that we should be working along side.

I think that I have said all that I wish to say on this topic. If anyone is confused or curious about what I have said, feel free to contact me, in world, to clarify my positions. With that said, I will happily wish you all well and take my leave.

Thank you.