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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
07-26-2008 15:26
From: 3Ring Binder
you've hit on so many points, and i want the chance to play devil's advocate to them all, so i'm going to peice them out.
Well, first, thanks for taking the time to work through my post. I should say straight out that what I propose has ZERO chance of ever being done. What I was trying to describe as informally as possible was an old jira proposal (http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-633?) I made back before LL announced they'd already adopted Google Search Appliance.

The basic idea was to rank-order Search results based on the real, formally defined information content of the results. That means exactly what it says: the amount of uncertainty reduced by the text match between the search terms and the matching description in the searched text corpus. And that means that if everybody lists their parcel as "neko", then "neko" has zero information value; in contrast, the rarer the match, the more information it provides, so the higher it ranks. Unmatched terms reduce the score because they add information *against* the match (so listing everything imaginable in the description will end up hurting the rank, even if some of the terms match).

So that was the underlying Search mechanism. If nobody paid for anything, that's how the results would rank.

But all the Phils in the world, currently spending the effort and electrons to keep bots in-world and make Traffic points, instead would just have to do something else. And the only really useful thing they could do (after they re-optimize their parcel and content descriptions and drop all the obsolete IBL tricks), is to throw a little money into bidding on search terms. (And it was quite wrong of me to call that "Classified" because it's really almost nothing like the current Classified system; that really was confusing to the point of being downright misleading; mea culpa.)

And they--the Phils--would pay, because it would be just the only game in town.

Right, I agree that some wouldn't pay. But many would, and they'd pay much more than they contribute now by inflating concurrency numbers with bots and campers. And it would be fair and simple: if you don't pay, you still get listed--and more accurately than now--but just not ranked as highly as those willing to bid on the match term.
From: someone
surely LL income from members would immediately drop like a rock. i will NEVER pay for a video game from my own pocket. most of the people i banter with inworld are of the same conviction.
Okay, but lots of people do, or at least they pay L$s to campers currently to boost their Search rankings; so instead they'd have to pay L$s to LL for the same result.
From: someone
i will NEVER pay for classifieds. i never ever shop classified, i don't even know how to find it, and i think that people who buy advertising to be in top rankings are simply gaming the system, but with their own money. i actually respect a business so much more that uses the game to make the game help them. it's more of a skill. i'm pretty much of the big-brother, anti-corporation mentality. you can't buy me. however, if that's the strategy they use to game the system, just 'cause i don't buy in to it doesn't mean i don't respect their efforts. business strategies can be quite complicated to understand if one does not know the whole picture.
Guess it's my turn not to understand, but it may be because I confused the issue calling it "Classified". The idea is there'd be no separate "Classified" tab; it would work just like Google does now in terms of listing "paid for" matches at the top and highlighted. I'm unsure about the distinction between paying campers and bidding on search terms--they're both "using the game to make the game help them"--except knowing how to bid on search terms is a lot more involved than setting out a few camp pads. I know there are purists who will never shop anywhere that uses campers--and I respect that--but I'm not even sure how to relate the ethics of paid-for search terms and paid-for traffic gaming with campers. Honestly, I have no opinion on it at this point.
From: someone
who is going to police that? LL loses money because now they have to pay people to police the grid. i wonder how else they could control this.
Well, nobody polices the information metrics--that's the whole point. Just *maybe* there could arise a need to control blatantly irrelevant content, but I kind of doubt that would be necessary.
From: someone
besides from those who alraedy use classified, from who else? do you believe more people are going to then sink $ into advertising in classifieds? so then, classifieds becomes a money war. the more you pay, the more i have to pay. pretty soon, you have to admit it's just a gamed system of who has deeper pockets. that's less strategic than botting.
Oh, no, I totally disagree. Knowing when and how much to bid on which search terms is vastly more sophisticated than botting, and requires an actual business strategy, not just a box with libSL loaded and a bit of idle bandwidth.
From: someone
i'm going to disagree, only because they will lose so many players who are paying premium and tier. sure, the business owners are going to pay, but all the others who get their money to play SL strictly from ingame are going to disappear. then businesses will have no shoppers. i think the domino effect will be much deeper than you are anticipating.
I'm not sure why players would leave, unless the concern is about the loss of camping revenue. Otherwise, regular players shouldn't see much change from the way it is now, unless I'm just not understanding. (And camping... well, trafficbots spell the end of camping already; "the future is here, it's just not evenly distributed.";)
From: someone
exactly which group of people are the ones who don't matter?
Okay, everybody matters, even new residents who don't know that the resident counts and concurrency numbers are unrepresentative of any reality anybody cares about. But I meant that there is nobody who's gonna buy or invest heavily in Linden Research, Inc. who is fooled in the slightest.
From: someone
[apropos irrelevant search terms]i agree tha tthey won't get 'return' shoppers, but i predict the idea behind this strategy is to just get ANYONE there and hope they stay long enough to explore and potentially buy "something". i do nto agree with this sort of gaming. it's blatant, outright lying.
Yeah... the thing is, in the information-theoretic match scheme, it hurts their true matches to put bogus terms into the description, so at least there's a built-in penalty. But I can't actually predict what scammers might do, especially if they've got nothing anybody would ever search for anyway.

(Leaving a few things dangling from the post... happy to return to any of it at any time, but this is already very long.)
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Drongle McMahon
Older than he looks
Join date: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 494
07-26-2008 15:32
From: Phil Deakins
All sort of people make money. Drivers, receptionists, scam artists, - all sorts. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, or unreasonably affect anyone.
Only governments and forgers make money. The rest of us just take it from each other, one way or another, such as by making things and getting others to buy them.
Nicki Koba
Registered User
Join date: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 30
07-26-2008 23:06
Hi

for 2 days ago M Linden had a blog post, about his 2 first month here.
I was hitting the blog in time, to get my note on.
Its ofcorse about the bots here in SL

You can read it here, its number 85
http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/07/24/my-first-two-months-at-linden-lab/
Dinohunden Paine
Registered User
Join date: 4 Dec 2007
Posts: 47
07-30-2008 23:57
Hehe, now I've just been acused of being a bot myself :-D

I was at my shop in Denmark, and I was reading in some of the forums and not looking at SL. A guy, won't hang out the name, had asked me something, and when I didn't reply he got really p*ssed and said, if I hate bots so much, why did I have one myself at my shop :-D
Josey Trautman
Registered User
Join date: 6 Feb 2007
Posts: 50
Bots @ Money tree
07-31-2008 02:43
look at the snapshot

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a382/zerokubrick/moneytree.jpg
Dinohunden Paine
Registered User
Join date: 4 Dec 2007
Posts: 47
07-31-2008 03:02
O M G ! ! !

that's pretty sick :-D
Cael Merryman
Brain in Neutral
Join date: 5 Dec 2007
Posts: 380
07-31-2008 07:23
From: Chip Midnight
... If it's all fine and dandy and not unethical why would those laws exist? Let's say McDonald's figured out that the higher the number served they put on their sign the more the signs of competing restaurants were moved away from the road, so they decide to go all out and put up a completely fake number like "497 quintrillion served!" so that their competitors signs are no longer visible from the road at all. They'd be sued in a heartbeat, and they'd lose.


Not a true parallel. Let's make it a very clear parallel. McDonalds says ten billion visitors, but leaves the term undefined, leaves it for the customer to determine for themselves. When there is a complaint, McDonalds says that they determined the visitors by doing a random survey of number of visitors that accompanied each transaction and multiplied register transactions made by that number. Oh, we did it on a day when there were reasons for a high visitor per trans count? Our bad, but hey, it costs too much to change the signs and, besides, we passed the old number yesterday anyway.

I'd bet on McDonald's lawyers, no fine and very little news, outside of perhaps Restaurant News or Franchise magazine.

Hell, circulation for magazines has very specifically defined terms and conditions and is audited (last time I was involved) by two different organizations, yet the numbers for paid/unpaid/unrequested subscriptions is gamed every day and only occasionally does a correction make the news, even though real ad dollars are attached to those numbers.

No, 'traffic' is too imprecise and defined differently and understood differently by too many people to make a good marker for 'unethical' in my opinion. And I find it a bit amusing the high dudgeon that it has raised here. It is up to LL to define and control the term and outcomes, if it can. Until then, IMO it is up to everyone to make of it what they will, cognitively and statistically. And probably never the twain shall meet...
Eric Stuart
Registered User
Join date: 5 Jul 2006
Posts: 203
07-31-2008 08:00
I cant seem to find the thread that had this, but I found this to be interesting. Bot farmers are getting hit with numerous violations now, to include these two:

-Disturbance of the Peace: Camping (overflows a sim, affects others that own land there)
-Community Standards: Violations using Alternate Accounts (drones end up most times being alts of the store owner, and this is considered abusing alts)

I've talked with a few others that have to deal with bot farmers on the same sim as them and the bot farmers got slapped with a warning or suspension by LL for either/both of these.
3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
07-31-2008 08:16

are the bots set up to pick the money trees?
3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
07-31-2008 08:18
From: Eric Stuart
I cant seem to find the thread that had this, but I found this to be interesting. Bot farmers are getting hit with numerous violations now, to include these two:

-Disturbance of the Peace: Camping (overflows a sim, affects others that own land there)
-Community Standards: Violations using Alternate Accounts (drones end up most times being alts of the store owner, and this is considered abusing alts)

I've talked with a few others that have to deal with bot farmers on the same sim as them and the bot farmers got slapped with a warning or suspension by LL for either/both of these.

i would be very interested in raeding that thread. i hope you can find it.
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
07-31-2008 08:19
From: Cael Merryman
Not a true parallel. Let's make it a very clear parallel. McDonalds says ten billion visitors, but leaves the term undefined, leaves it for the customer to determine for themselves. When there is a complaint, McDonalds says that they determined the visitors by doing a random survey of number of visitors that accompanied each transaction and multiplied register transactions made by that number. Oh, we did it on a day when there were reasons for a high visitor per trans count? Our bad, but hey, it costs too much to change the signs and, besides, we passed the old number yesterday anyway.

I'd bet on McDonald's lawyers, no fine and very little news, outside of perhaps Restaurant News or Franchise magazine.

Hell, circulation for magazines has very specifically defined terms and conditions and is audited (last time I was involved) by two different organizations, yet the numbers for paid/unpaid/unrequested subscriptions is gamed every day and only occasionally does a correction make the news, even though real ad dollars are attached to those numbers.

No, 'traffic' is too imprecise and defined differently and understood differently by too many people to make a good marker for 'unethical' in my opinion. And I find it a bit amusing the high dudgeon that it has raised here. It is up to LL to define and control the term and outcomes, if it can. Until then, IMO it is up to everyone to make of it what they will, cognitively and statistically. And probably never the twain shall meet...


Your McDonnalds parallel doesn't work either

It would be more like each McDonnalds grabbed up a bunch of illegal immigrants, locked them up in a basement and force-fed them hamburgers all day long.

Then used the number of hamburgers they served that way combined with more normal methods as their advertised "served" number.
3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
07-31-2008 08:21
From: Colette Meiji
Your McDonnalds parallel doesn't work either

It would be more like each McDonnalds grabbed up a bunch of illegal immigrants, locked them up in a basement and force-fed them hamburgers all day long.

Then used the number of hamburgers they served that way combined with more normal methods as their advertised "served" number.

that totally made me LOL. thanks! :)
Eric Stuart
Registered User
Join date: 5 Jul 2006
Posts: 203
07-31-2008 09:09
From: 3Ring Binder
i would be very interested in raeding that thread. i hope you can find it.


The thread just had people talking about their reports against bot farmers and what came from it. We had one on our land hit with the camping one and one of my friends had a bot farmer on his land hit with the Alt Abuse one. So those two are from personal observation.
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-31-2008 09:23
*IF* I've understood Colette's parallel, it doesn't work. The "illegal imigrants" are not a parallel to bots. Bots are not against the ToS, and are perfectly 'legal' in SL. They can become 'illegal' by filling the sim so that other landowners and their guests can't get in, and things like that, but when used sensibly, they are entirely within the ToS.

Also, the traffic numbers that include bot minutes are totally genuine. The traffic minutes are real.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
07-31-2008 09:36
From: Phil Deakins
*IF* I've understood Colette's parallel, it doesn't work. The "illegal imigrants" are not a parallel to bots. Bots are not against the ToS, and are perfectly 'legal' in SL. They can become 'illegal' by filling the sim so that other landowners and their guests can't get in, and things like that, but when used sensibly, they are entirely within the ToS.


Its an American thing. You wont get it. Suffice it to say Undocumented Immigrants and NPIOF Residents are good enough parallels.

From: Phil Deakins

Also, the traffic numbers that include bot minutes are totally genuine. The traffic minutes are real.


So are the hamburgers that the immigrants in my example are force fed.
Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
07-31-2008 09:52
From: Colette Meiji
So are the hamburgers that the immigrants in my example are force fed.

To sum up the previous 30 or so pages that you might have missed, Colette: The difference, sadly, is that what Phil is doing is not explicitly illegal in SL. Nothing else matters and anybody who does not exploit every not-explicitly-illegal advantage they can find is a chump. Those that do exploit them have superior marketing skillz.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
07-31-2008 09:56
From: Meade Paravane
To sum up the previous 30 or so pages that you might have missed, Colette: The difference, sadly, is that what Phil is doing is not explicitly illegal in SL. Nothing else matters and anybody who does not exploit every not-explicitly-illegal advantage they can find is a chump. Those that do exploit them have superior marketing skillz.


LOL
Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
07-31-2008 10:05
From: Colette Meiji
LOL

She laughs. :rolleyes:

It's actually true.. :(
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
07-31-2008 10:06
From: Meade Paravane
She laughs. :rolleyes:

It's actually true.. :(


I know it is.

That is why I laughed.
Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
07-31-2008 10:10
Lol :)
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
07-31-2008 11:00
Sob

;)
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Darien Caldwell
Registered User
Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,127
07-31-2008 13:20
Well I guess I'm a chump then. A chump laughing all the way to the bank.

Sales grow month after month, and I don't need any cheesy tricks to do that.

It comes from having a superior product, offering good customer service, and most of all, having a level of integrity which people can count on.

I don't often toot my own horn, but people who feel camp bots and slimy tricks are necessary and superior in some way, are just fooling themselves.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-31-2008 13:46
From: Darien Caldwell
I don't often toot my own horn, but people who feel camp bots and slimy tricks are necessary and superior in some way, are just fooling themselves.
I don't know anyone who thinks that. However, I do know someone who thinks that camping and traffic bots *add* to their laughter all the way to the bank each month ;)
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Dinohunden Paine
Registered User
Join date: 4 Dec 2007
Posts: 47
07-31-2008 14:10
From: Phil Deakins
I don't know anyone who thinks that. However, I do know someone who thinks that camping and traffic bots *add* to their laughter all the way to the bank each month ;)



Well, in the sad lack of decent products and service, I recon, you have to do these dirty tricks...... I'd rather shut down business then.
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
07-31-2008 14:11
From: Darien Caldwell
Well I guess I'm a chump then. A chump laughing all the way to the bank.

Sales grow month after month, and I don't need any cheesy tricks to do that.

It comes from having a superior product, offering good customer service, and most of all, having a level of integrity which people can count on.

I don't often toot my own horn, but people who feel camp bots and slimy tricks are necessary and superior in some way, are just fooling themselves.


I do not think thats what Meade was saying.
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