Whatever. You do it your way, and I'll do it mine, and I'll be in riches befoooore you. (sung to the tune of Loch Lomond) 

Well in many people's eyes he'll be rich in two ways, where some others will be bankrupt in one manner.
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
![]() Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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07-25-2008 17:52
Whatever. You do it your way, and I'll do it mine, and I'll be in riches befoooore you. (sung to the tune of Loch Lomond) ![]() Well in many people's eyes he'll be rich in two ways, where some others will be bankrupt in one manner. _____________________
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you! 9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo |
Colette Meiji
Registered User
![]() Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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07-25-2008 17:53
Is it any wonder that I and others feel that he does not want discussion but just wants to quell opposition to his questionable practices? Kinda have to wonder if you are right on about this one .. Since Phil's vehement opposition to anyone expressing an anti-trafficbot stance basically turns every bot thread into this same discussion |
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
![]() Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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07-25-2008 17:55
Kinda have to wonder if you are right on about this one .. Since Phil's vehement opposition to anyone expressing an anti-trafficbot stance basically turns every bot thread into this same discussion Yes him trying to defend deception and fraud as a good business practice, based on the argument it makes him money and others are doing it ... _____________________
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you! 9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo |
Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
![]() Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
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07-25-2008 17:57
He even says pages back that he does not want to discuss it. Fine bow out and let others discuss it, however he does not. Why? What is he afraid of?
_____________________
![]() Trout Rating: I'm giving you an 8.2 on the Troutchter Earth-Movement Slut Scale. You are an amazing, enchanting woman, and, when the situation calls for it, a slut of the very best sort. Congratulations and shame on you! |
Colette Meiji
Registered User
![]() Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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07-25-2008 18:02
He even says pages back that he does not want to discuss it. Fine bow out and let others discuss it, however he does not. Why? What is he afraid of? are you kidding? LOL he used to claim he was quiting the forum for good but kept coming back to make comments. |
Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
![]() Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
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07-25-2008 18:20
I think deep down he knows that the way he games traffic is contrary to the way LL intended it to be used. In a previous argument and thread he actually was far more honest and said word to the effect of he didn't care if it was honest, lying, etc that the loverly money was all he cared about. At least that was closer to the truth. However the real kicker is, despite that he cannot bear to be seen to be wrong about anything. Thats why he keeps coming back.
Of course thats just what I think and that's OK, because Phil told me I can think what I like ![]() _____________________
![]() Trout Rating: I'm giving you an 8.2 on the Troutchter Earth-Movement Slut Scale. You are an amazing, enchanting woman, and, when the situation calls for it, a slut of the very best sort. Congratulations and shame on you! |
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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07-26-2008 00:39
lol. You people amuse me. Mort makes thing up, Gabriele does the only thing possible since she's still smarting over her failure in this thread, and Colette continues to troll. Brainless - except for Colette who does have a good trolling brain. Stick with them Gabriele. It makes you feel supported - now, anyway, but isn't it odd how nobody supported you when you needed it? I few miscellaneous lies from them would have helped. Oh well - you can feel their comfort now - a bit late, but better than nothing
![]() I want to thank you especially, Gabriele. I've never before come across anyone who is happy to accuse people, but seriously dislikes it when they respond. You keep mentioning that I said I wasn't interested in debating the issue, so I guess you felt safe enough to throw your false accusation into the pot for good measure lol. I've never seen it before, but I do like it. Thank you for the extra smiles I'm having on that one - not laughs, but good broad smiles - thank you ![]() ![]() Thank you all for the smiles to start my day. It sets my day up well, and it's appreciated ![]() _____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/ |
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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07-26-2008 01:11
Loch Lomond - version 2
-------------------------------- You take the high road, and I'll take the low road And I'll be in clover befoooore you. Where you and your money will never meet again; It'll be in my bank in the moooorning ![]() You claim the moral high ground, so I think it'll do. _____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/ |
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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07-26-2008 01:22
It's equivalent to the a movie theater counting everyone that walks in and out the doors to boost the number of visitors to the location for advertising purposes (and then at the bottom of the add in real fine print going - all visitors counted coming and going Can you name me a company who uses such a practice? A company whom, I don't know, let's say they count these bots in their user figures? |
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
![]() Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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07-26-2008 02:16
Can you name me a company who uses such a practice? A company whom, I don't know, let's say they count these bots in their user figures? You have phil using bots in his traffic count. Bots that are there for the sole purpose of generating higher traffic. The traffic stat is in effect gamed, those with camp pads are the ones who add the cavet at the bottom. Those that use bots are not even making the effort to inform those that see the traffic stats that they are gaming the system with inflated traffic using bots _____________________
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you! 9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo |
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
![]() Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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07-26-2008 02:18
lol. You people amuse me. Mort makes thing up, Gabriele does the only thing possible since she's still smarting over her failure in this thread, and Colette continues to troll. Brainless - except for Colette who does have a good trolling brain. Stick with them Gabriele. It makes you feel supported - now, anyway, but isn't it odd how nobody supported you when you needed it? I few miscellaneous lies from them would have helped. Oh well - you can feel their comfort now - a bit late, but better than nothing ![]() I want to thank you especially, Gabriele. I've never before come across anyone who is happy to accuse people, but seriously dislikes it when they respond. You keep mentioning that I said I wasn't interested in debating the issue, so I guess you felt safe enough to throw your false accusation into the pot for good measure lol. I've never seen it before, but I do like it. Thank you for the extra smiles I'm having on that one - not laughs, but good broad smiles - thank you ![]() ![]() Thank you all for the smiles to start my day. It sets my day up well, and it's appreciated ![]() I quote the KB and LL You make up excuses for what you do that revolve around "but I make money, so I'm going to keep doing it." A scam artist makes money too, doesn't mean it's right even if what they do isn't illegal. _____________________
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you! 9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo |
Alazarin Mondrian
Teh Trippy Hippie Dragon
![]() Join date: 4 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,549
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07-26-2008 02:19
He even says pages back that he does not want to discuss it. Fine bow out and let others discuss it, however he does not. Why? What is he afraid of? I smell a troll called Phil Deakins. _____________________
My stuff on Meta-Life: http://tinyurl.com/ykq7nzt
http://www.myspace.com/alazarinmobius http://slurl.com/secondlife/Crescent/72/98/116 |
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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07-26-2008 02:29
You have phil using bots in his traffic count. Bots that are there for the sole purpose of generating higher traffic. The traffic stat is in effect gamed, those with camp pads are the ones who add the cavet at the bottom. Those that use bots are not even making the effort to inform those that see the traffic stats that they are gaming the system with inflated traffic using bots Now take this a step further, who else uses bots in their figures to inflate the popularity of their product? |
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
![]() Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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07-26-2008 02:45
Now take this a step further, who else uses bots in their figures to inflate the popularity of their product? LL lists account numbers, every bot requires an account. There is no deception there, where using a bot to stand in a box to inflate traffic to make your parcel seem to be a high traffic location is deceptive. _____________________
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you! 9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo |
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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07-26-2008 02:48
LL lists account numbers, every bot requires an account. There is no deception there, where using a bot to stand in a box to inflate traffic to make your parcel seem to be a high traffic location is deceptive. Behave! lol, come on, do you think when they publish those figures people on the outside even know bots exist, or that every avatar doesn't have a unique person behind it? |
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
![]() Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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07-26-2008 03:27
Behave! lol, come on, do you think when they publish those figures people on the outside even know bots exist, or that every avatar doesn't have a unique person behind it? 1 - they have an estimate of 20% bots 2 - they have information on alts It's even spelled out they have the option to limit alt accounts. Besides even then it does not change the fact using bots to inflate the numbers in traffic is on the dishonest side. _____________________
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you! 9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo |
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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07-26-2008 03:58
1 - they have an estimate of 20% bots 2 - they have information on alts It's even spelled out they have the option to limit alt accounts. Besides even then it does not change the fact using bots to inflate the numbers in traffic is on the dishonest side. I've given you a glaring real world example of where statistics can say something different to different people. Blizzard are accused of the same thing over WoW, people question ebay's claims about the number of listings on their site. All of them have evidence to backup their claims, as does Phil, he hasn't hacked into the servers to generate a figure. Statistics are manipulated day in, day out, going around shouting lies and deceit is all well and good but look around you and you'll see it everywhere, it's not uncommon practice and you happily do business with companies who engage in the practice. |
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
![]() Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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07-26-2008 07:06
I've given you a glaring real world example of where statistics can say something different to different people. Blizzard are accused of the same thing over WoW, people question ebay's claims about the number of listings on their site. All of them have evidence to backup their claims, as does Phil, he hasn't hacked into the servers to generate a figure. Statistics are manipulated day in, day out, going around shouting lies and deceit is all well and good but look around you and you'll see it everywhere, it's not uncommon practice and you happily do business with companies who engage in the practice. Ah but here is the difference: Statistics are manipulated though interpretation Using bots/camping is manipulation of the raw data through false numbers. If someone doesn't like a parcel they leave in time and don't come back, where a bot/camper sits there and just racks up traffic numbers. Manipulation of statistics doesn't create or subtract numbers, it is based off a fixed data set. This is altering the data set before it can be interpreted with inflated numbers. It's equivalent to paying people to watch your show in order to alter the nelson ratings, versus saying it was the most popular in it's time slot (when it was in the least desirable slot and the only show on vs the station identification holding pattern on the other channels) And I do not cheerfully do business, because if I am it's due to no other options available. _____________________
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you! 9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo |
3Ring Binder
always smile
![]() Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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07-26-2008 07:28
Its a business strategy that is a corruption of the system as it was originally intended and its deceptive by nature. Its one thing to support or use such a business strategy. Its another thing to go to all lengths to justify it. it's a business strategy you do not agree with. however, it is simply that, a business strategy. i will also go to all lengths to justify my beliefs. however, i know a wall when i see one. i have more interesting things to do than try to convert someone to my religion, or berate them for refusing to convert. acceptance is a beautiful thing. _____________________
it was fun while it lasted.
http://2lf.informe.com/ |
3Ring Binder
always smile
![]() Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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07-26-2008 07:31
So would you condone offering cooked books to potential investors? It is the same principle. Phil is being deceptive about the number of people who visit his store in order to enrich himself. He is committing a fraud plain and simple. offering cooked books to investors represents RL money and RL investments. that would affect RL businesses and RL people and families. Phil is competing with SL businesses who do not compete in RL, nor is there any book cooking which would directly affect LL and no one else. and since you brought it up, don't you think that LL is book-cooking with all the inflated alt counts? if you are pissed at anyone for cheating RL monies, perhaps your should turn your head in another direction. _____________________
it was fun while it lasted.
http://2lf.informe.com/ |
Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
![]() Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
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07-26-2008 07:31
Look, I found a picture that explains this thread completely!!
![]() Maybe it's just me and my silly notion that I can make money being an honest person. Perhaps it is 14 years of running a RL business that makes me think that, who knows. All I know is I am happier being honest with my customers then I am being a money grubbing whore who will do anything for a fast buck. But I do concede and accept that it's anyone's right to be a money grubbing whore. _____________________
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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07-26-2008 07:44
Ah but here is the difference: Statistics are manipulated though interpretation And who is Phil cheating? This is what it boils down to because if his products are crap nobody will be buying even if he's on the parcel with the most traffic in the whole of Second Life. Whereas if I'm being sold a service based on popularity, such as a club, then the figures being used to sell the service, the number of people at the location, is a direct misrepresentation. Phil sells furniture, not numbers. |
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
![]() Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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07-26-2008 07:45
offering cooked books to investors represents RL money and RL investments. that would affect RL businesses and RL people and families. Phil is competing with SL businesses who do not compete in RL, nor is there any book cooking which would directly affect LL and no one else. and since you brought it up, don't you think that LL is book-cooking with all the inflated alt counts? if you are pissed at anyone for cheating RL monies, perhaps your should turn your head in another direction. Just one problem he is competing with RL people for RL money... _____________________
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you! 9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo |
3Ring Binder
always smile
![]() Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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07-26-2008 07:48
you've hit on so many points, and i want the chance to play devil's advocate to them all, so i'm going to peice them out. if i do so and change the intent of a point, please correct. perhaps you meant for 2 things to go hand in hand somehow, and i simply did not pick up on that. enjoying your thought process and looking forward to your replies.
Yeah, I sure would! And I'd make *all* Search-ranking pay-for-play: surely LL income from members would immediately drop like a rock. i will NEVER pay for a video game from my own pocket. most of the people i banter with inworld are of the same conviction. the *only* way to "win" would be by paying more Classified fees, i will NEVER pay for classifieds. i never ever shop classified, i don't even know how to find it, and i think that people who buy advertising to be in top rankings are simply gaming the system, but with their own money. i actually respect a business so much more that uses the game to make the game help them. it's more of a skill. i'm pretty much of the big-brother, anti-corporation mentality. you can't buy me. however, if that's the strategy they use to game the system, just 'cause i don't buy in to it doesn't mean i don't respect their efforts. business strategies can be quite complicated to understand if one does not know the whole picture. otherwise the sort order would be based strictly on information value of text match with parcel description and contents. who is going to police that? LL loses money because now they have to pay people to police the grid. i wonder how else they could control this. No Traffic, no phony IBLs, just straight simple L$s paid. besides from those who alraedy use classified, from who else? do you believe more people are going to then sink $ into advertising in classifieds? so then, classifieds becomes a money war. the more you pay, the more i have to pay. pretty soon, you have to admit it's just a gamed system of who has deeper pockets. that's less strategic than botting. LL would walk away with a *lot* more revenue from this than they do from all the Traffic manipulation methods. i'm going to disagree, only because they will lose so many players who are paying premium and tier. sure, the business owners are going to pay, but all the others who get their money to play SL strictly from ingame are going to disappear. then businesses will have no shoppers. i think the domino effect will be much deeper than you are anticipating. And ultimately the gamed user-count numbers fool absolutely nobody who matters. exactly which group of people are the ones who don't matter? Yes, of course people could still use irrelevant description terms, but that's ultimately a loosing proposition: if there's nothing "neko" in a neko-described destination, they're not gonna get much business from neko-shoppers. i agree tha tthey won't get 'return' shoppers, but i predict the idea behind this strategy is to just get ANYONE there and hope they stay long enough to explore and potentially buy "something". i do nto agree with this sort of gaming. it's blatant, outright lying. And anyway, in my formulation, the more frequently a term is used in all descriptions, the less weight it would get because the less information it conveys. right now, the opposite is true. i'm not sure what you mean by this. I sometimes wonder if some folks in LL really don't understand that L$ sinks (like Classified fees) are revenue sources. I know some have managed to convince some residents of that in the past, but it's difficult to imagine that any Lindens really don't understand their own business better than that. i'm sure they see all income as revenue sources. removing any part of the grid that will sever a steady income will require a lot of thought and research. LL is not necessarily known for that. LOL however, when it comes to LL losing money, i bet they put far more energy in to that sort of research than anything that affectts SL users directly ingame. including bloated traffic counts. _____________________
it was fun while it lasted.
http://2lf.informe.com/ |
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
![]() Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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07-26-2008 07:49
Behave! lol, come on, do you think when they publish those figures people on the outside even know bots exist, or that every avatar doesn't have a unique person behind it? If LL was running their own bot army to inflate concurrency numbers you'd have a point. That would be equivalent to what Phil is doing. They don't. Their system just isn't capable of distinguishing between real avatars and bots. If it were the exploit Phil and others take advantage of wouldn't exist in the first place. In the case of real world businesses making phony claims about their products and business activity, there are laws against that. If it's all fine and dandy and not unethical why would those laws exist? Let's say McDonald's figured out that the higher the number served they put on their sign the more the signs of competing restaurants were moved away from the road, so they decide to go all out and put up a completely fake number like "497 quintrillion served!" so that their competitors signs are no longer visible from the road at all. They'd be sued in a heartbeat, and they'd lose. _____________________
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