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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 01:59
From: Gabriele Graves
You are wrong, and I did say in my passage that traffic means traffic but the Linden meaning of that is popularity - hence why popular places tab is the one that shows the most traffic. "Popular" places = places with most traffic.
If I'm wrong, tell me where I'm wrong. But I'm not wrong. I've pointed out that traffic = popularity is a fallacy. Explain why that's wrong please. Perhaps you haven't noticed yet, but there is no Popular Places tab - or is that just in the RC? However, it doesn't matter what LL call it. I've explained why traffic does not, and cannot, represent popularity. Now you explain why you think it does. And please talk about actual traffic, and not about what the intention of it is or was.

In your post you said,"Traffic is the measure of how much traffic your parcel has seen, hence how popular it is." I have shown that that is wrong. Traffic is *not* a measure of popularity, but if you think it is, please explain.

From: Gabriele Graves
See this is why I dislike engaging you in debate because you just can never be wrong about anything. You even expressed that you were not interested in debating this and yet you continue to post on this subject.
Tell me something. Do you think you're right? It takes two y'know, and I don't recall you admitting to being wrong ;) I don't post unless I have something to say, and if I have something to say, I believe it. So of course I think I'm right - just like everyone else - I'm no different.

I wasn't interested in debating the topic, but I chose to anyway. Is that wrong? Did you only write posts to me because you thought I wouldn't reply? :)
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Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
07-25-2008 02:08
From: Phil Deakins
If I'm wrong, tell me where I'm wrong. But I'm not wrong. I've pointed out that traffic = popularity is a fallacy. Explain why that's wrong please. Perhaps you haven't noticed yet, but there is no Popular Places tab - or is that just in the RC? However, it doesn't matter what LL call it. I've explained why traffic does not, and cannot, represent popularity. Now you explain why you think it does. And please talk about actual traffic, and not about what the intention of it is or was.

In your post you said,"Traffic is the measure of how much traffic your parcel has seen, hence how popular it is." I have shown that that is wrong. Traffic is *not* a measure of popularity, but if you think it is, please explain.

Tell me something. Do you think you're right? It takes two y'know ;) I don't post unless I have something to say, and if I have something to say, I believe it. So of course I think I'm right - just like everyone else - I'm no different.

I wasn't interested in debating the topic, but I chose to anyway. Is that wrong? Did you only write posts to me because you thought I wouldn't reply? :)

You are wrong because Popular Places is in the released viewer v1.19.0(4) and by the side of the places is the count of traffic, the list is also sorted by traffic.

When I started debating this I was debating with everyone except you, then you responded to one of my posts and I thought "well hey OK I will give this another go". Does not seem to be working out though really does it?

Now you claim there are no popular places tab and that traffic has nothing to do with popularity, you are clearly wrong over this.
Check the currently released viewer, right between Events and Land Sales is the Popular places tab and the heading traffic is right there in the second column.

Traffic = Popularity in LL eyes at least - period.

Let this one go and I will gain a measure of respect for you I have never before had :)
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 02:37
From: Gabriele Graves
You are wrong because Popular Places is in the released viewer v1.19.0(4) and by the side of the places is the count of traffic, the list is also sorted by traffic.
Yes, I did say that it was gone - I was mistaken. But I did ask if it had only been removed in the RC viewer. The Popular Places tab is gone in the RC, and will soon be gone in the standard viewer. I forget what LL said about it, but it is clearly not a list of popular places in the way that we would understand popular places to be. So it's gonner. It's replaced by a Showcase tab.

From: Gabriele Graves
When I started debating this I was debating with everyone except you, then you responded to one of my posts and I thought "well hey OK I will give this another go". Does not seem to be working out though really does it?
I'm sorry if the facts don't suit your prefered views, but that's nothing to do with me. I'm still waiting for your responses to my long post. I spent a good deal of time writing it, and all you've said so far is, "you're wrong", but you haven't offered one word of why I am wrong. I'm still waiting - and hoping. I did say in the post that it doesn't matter how traffic came about, or what the intention for it was, and that I am talking about what traffic actually is. So the Popluar Places tab idea doesn't come into it - and it's a gonner anyway.

From: Gabriele Graves
Now you claim there are no popular places tab and that traffic has nothing to do with popularity, you are clearly wrong over this.
Check the currently released viewer, right between Events and Land Sales is the Popular places tab and the heading traffic is right there in the second column.
How can I say this nicely? Read the post again, in which I mentioned that the Popular Places tab had gone. Do you see where I asked if it had only gone in the RC viewer?

From: Gabriele Graves
Traffic = Popularity in LL eyes at least - period.
Oh no. Not "period" at all. I've explained at length why traffic does not and cannot = popularity. Now you explain why you think it does, since you seem to hold the strong view that it does.

From: Gabriele Graves
Let this one go and I will gain a measure of respect for you I have never before had :)
I'm not interested in your respect, and I'm certainly not going to let it go and pretend you are right. You haven't made any attempt yet to explain why you think you are right. At the risk of sounding boring, please explain why traffic = popularity. I've shown that it does not, and cannot = popularity, and I'd like to hear your reasoning on it. And no more sidetracks please.

Traffic is *not* a measure of popularity, and it never was.
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Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
07-25-2008 02:44
You see this is why there is no headway between us Phil, you make a long post that only really makes a good argument if you were right about your starting premise - the one that traffic has never equalled popularity. So rather than tackle each point, I give you evidence that at least at some point LL *did* consider traffic to equal popularity to show you your starting premise is wrong.
The released viewer is still the only general use sanctioned LL viewer.

I just don't understand why you cannot see that if there is a tab in the viewer called "Popular Places" and that tab has a list of popular places which is generated by taking the top traffic places and displaying them, then that means LL considered (at the time of release the viewer if at no other time) that Traffic does equal Popularity. What other conclusion could there possibly be?

This is me trying to be as nice as I can possibly be :)
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 03:00
From: Gabriele Graves
You see this is why there is no headway between us Phil, you make a long post that only really makes a good argument if you were right about your starting premise - the one that traffic has never equalled poularity. So rather than tackle each point, I give you evidence that at least at some point LL *did* consider traffic to equal popularity to show you your starting premise is wrong.
The released viewer is still the only general use sanctioned LL viewer.
That's better :) Now we're getting somewhere.

My "starting premise" was that it doesn't matter how traffic came about, or what the intention for it was. That implies that it doesn't matter what LL say it is or was. The *only* thing I'm talking about is what it *actually is*. It is a measure of av minutes on a parcel of land. It is *not* a measure of the parcel's popularity, and it never has been. My long post explains why, so I won't repeat it in this one.

From: Gabriele Graves
I just don't understand why you cannot see that if there is a tab in the viewer called "Popular Places" and that tab has a list of popular places which is generated by taking the top traffic places and displaying them, then that means LL considered (at the time of release the viewer if at no other time) that Traffic does equal Popularity. What other conclusion could there possibly be?
What other conclusion? The true one, that's what other conclusion. I'll go back in time...

When I joined SL, the Popular Places tab actually worked - it listed places that were genuinely popular. The traffic measurement never measured popularity, and never can, for the reasons i've explained, but it did appear to get some popular places listed in that tab although even then, they were getting there by camping - something I remember, but didn't understand at the time.

So the Popular Places tab did work at the beginning, but not because it measured popularity. It worked because it measured avatar minutes, regardless of whether or not the places were popular with, or dislike by, the avatars. It is not, and was not, a measure of popularity, but it did do a reasonable job back then. So...

From: Gabriele Graves
I just don't understand why you cannot see that if there is a tab in the viewer called "Popular Places" and that tab has a list of popular places ...
But the Popular Places tab doesn't have a list of popular places. It has a list of places that use camping and such to inflate the traffic numbers to extraordinary levels. They are not the most popular places in the way that we understand by "popular".

But I think I understand what you mean. If I'm not mistaken, you mean that, if LL says that traffic measures popularity, then it measures popularity - period. But that's not good enough. You have to think beyond that blind way of thinking, and examine what is actually being measured. If you do that, you'll see that it isn't measuring popularity.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 03:16
I just noticed this:-

From: Gabriele Graves
You see this is why there is no headway between us Phil, you make a long post that only really makes a good argument if you were right about your starting premise - the one that traffic has never equalled popularity.
I've shown very clearly that the traffic measurement never did, and still doesn't, measure popularity. So, in your view, my long post makes a good argument. We're progressing :)

Now all you need to do is realise that, since traffic isn't a measure of popularity, the traffic figures are totally accurate, and are not deceptive. A step too far for you? It is if you really want it to be deceptive, but if you're more interested in facts and truth, you'll take the step.

And, btw, we are talking about the Places tab, in which the only thing said about the figures is "Traffic". It doesn't claim that they represent popularity.
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Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
07-25-2008 03:19
From: Phil Deakins
That's better :) Now we're getting somewhere.

My "starting premise" was that it doesn't matter how traffic came about, or what the intention for it was. That implies that it doesn't matter what LL say it is or was. The *only* thing I'm talking about is what it *actually is*. It is a measure of av minutes on a parcel of land. ......


A land extortioner / ad-farmer would have the same starting premise.
'It doesn't matter what the intention of LL was. Just screw the system for all you can get.'
Yup! That's how it works in SL and in RL.

Where you and others go wrong is in implying that just because things are they way that they are then they magically become OK.
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Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
07-25-2008 03:20
OK I am going to skip everything until this...

From: Phil Deakins
But I think I understand what you mean. If I'm not mistaken, you mean that, if LL says that traffic measures popularity, then it measures popularity - period. But that's not good enough. You have to think beyond that blind way of thinking, and examine what is actually being measured. If you do that, you'll see that it isn't measuring popularity.


Why have I done that? I have done that because I don't care, all that is opinion and supposition. The item being discussed right this moment is whether there is evidence that, using your own words to make this easier...

From: Phil Deakins
if LL says that traffic measures popularity, then it measures popularity - period.


You see I do think that is good enough and the Popular Places tab proves they thought this way at least once. So now it is your turn to show evidence of why LL does not think this way about traffic.

If you do not argue that they didn't then we are done here because if LL intended it to be Traffic = Popularity then regardless of whether it is in practice or not, it is dishonest and lying to make the search system show your parcel as more "Popular" than it is. If LL thought Popularity should equal traffic then the users should too and do when they use the traffic based search. Why do they think that? Because of the Popular places tab in the most used viewer tells them Popular = More Traffic.

Anything else is irrelevant to the discussion about why gaming the traffic system is falsely representing your parcel and therefore making the search engine tell lies about you.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 03:22
From: Sling Trebuchet
A land extortioner / ad-farmer would have the same starting premise.
'It doesn't matter what the intention of LL was. Just screw the system for all you can get.'
Yup! That's how it works in SL and in RL.

Where you and others go wrong is in implying that just because things are they way that they are then they magically become OK.
In this instance, I'm saying that traffic is not a measurement of popularity. Do you disagree? If you do, please explain why.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 03:37
From: Gabriele Graves
OK I am going to skip everything until this...

Why have I done that? I have done that because I don't care, all that is opinion and supposition. The item being discussed right this moment is whether there is evidence that, using your own words to make this easier...
No. I have expressed no opinions or suppositions. I have stated facts that cannot be disputed. That's why you haven't made any attempt to dispute them.

From: Gabriele Graves
You see I do think that is good enough and the Popular Places tab proves they thought this way at least once.
The Popular Places tab is out. The Places tab is what we're talking about. Have a look there and tell me where you find anything to indicate popularity numbers.

From: Gabriele Graves
So now it is your turn to show evidence of why LL does not think this way about traffic.
I keep saying that I'm talking about what the traffic measurement actually is, and not what it was intended or hoped to be. I've given examples of why it does not meaure popularity, I've stated why it does not measure popularity - it *can't* measure popularity, for goodness sakes. What's so difficult to grasp? But if you're only interested in the blind follower view, there's nothing I can say. LL says this, so it's true. Ignore that the facts don't fit it - the facts must be wrong. What can I say? Wow!

From: Gabriele Graves
If you do not argue that they didn't then we are done here because if LL intended it to be Traffic = Popularity then regardless of whether it is in practice or not
It doesn't matter what LL intended. What matters is what >>>ACTUALLY IS<<<.

From: Gabriele Graves
it is dishonest and lying to make the search system show your parcel as more "Popular" than it is. If LL thought Popularity should equal traffic then the users should too and do when they use the traffic based search. Why do they think that? Because of the Popular places tab in the most used viewer tells them Popular = More Traffic.
Oh dear. This is getting boring. LL doesn't think that traffic should equal popularity. (1) the Popular Places tab, that you so love, will soon be gone - because LL knows that traffic doesn't equal popular, (2) the Places tab, which is what we're talking about in this thread, makes no mention of "popular" - it just says "Traffic". Look and see.
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Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
07-25-2008 03:49
The removal of the Popular Places tab does not prove LL never thought that traffic equalled popularity. Why would they have *ever* had a Popular places tab based on traffic if they never thought that? It does not matter if it is being removed for the future main viewer, we are talking about now and what has occurred.
People are not saying you will be dishonest in the future when traffic is irrelevant or non-existant, they are saying you have been dishonest in the past and currently. That is all that is relevant, leave future things for another discussion because it has no bearing here.

We do not know the real reasons for removing Popular Places, it is probably to bring in the Showcase thing.
Even if they have suddenly had a revelation about Popular Places and traffic, they thought otherwise once. If it was thought that way once then that was LL's intention for the feature, regardless of whether it is going away. So that means gaming the system was lying and deceiving people using search. LL thought it meant popularity and so did the user base, so anyone gaming is exploiting that.

All you seem to be doing is getting stuck on whether traffic is really popularity, that is irrelevant, it is what LL thought it was and what they intended it to be that matters. Anything going forward is a different ballgame and also not relevant.

Of course this would be much simpler if you could just admit you are wrong, just once. Then we could move forward and discuss something that is not beginning to bore you.
Believe me having to spell it out for the nth time and you still not getting it is getting wearying also.
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
07-25-2008 04:04
From: Phil Deakins
LL doesn't think that traffic should equal popularity. (1) the Popular Places tab, that you so love, will soon be gone - because LL knows that traffic doesn't equal popular, (2) the Places tab, which is what we're talking about in this thread, makes no mention of "popular" - it just says "Traffic". Look and see.
But why then do they cling to this goddamned Traffic metric? It seems unlikely that the intent is to specially reward those residents with the patience to set up more trafficbots.

Ultimately this debate always comes down to those (like me) who think "popularity" is just a really dopey, unscalable, anachronistic measure of lag, totally unsuited for ranking Search results (except perhaps secretly load-balancing by steering agents *away* from busy places), versus those who cling to the notion of "popularity" as indicative of quality of product or experience and want to somehow salvage Traffic as a proxy for that.

So, to me, as long as Traffic is still around, I really don't give a crap how much it's contaminated by "gaming". Just for the sake of parsimony, however, I wish they'd just give us a little slider on parcel settings to adjust how much traffic we want, thereby freeing up the bot-builders to get on with something that has actual value.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 04:22
Gabriele:

If LL ever thought that traffic actually measured popularity, then their thinking was flawed, but I doubt that they ever thought that. What they are more likely to have thought is that measuring traffic will give us an indication of a place's popularity, but not that it actually measures popularity. That would be why they called the tab Popular Places. As I said earlier, when I came to SL that tab did appear to show the popular places, although camping was already on the go, and I've no idea how many were listed there because of that.

If my memory is correct, they are removing Popular Places because it's become nothing but a farce, and what they thought at one time really doesn't matter. I said from the start that I am not talking about LL's intentions and such, and that I am only talking about the traffic measurement and what it actually is and always was, and there is no way that it ever measured popularity.

From: Gabriele Graves
So that means gaming the system was lying and deceiving people using search.
You may have a point about the Popular Places tab, because of its name, "Popular Places", but not about the Places tab, where 'popularity' is not mentioned at all. The only word used is "Traffic" - and we are discussing the the Places tab search in this thread.

From: Gabriele Graves
All you seem to be doing is getting stuck on whether traffic is really popularity, that is irrelevant, it is what LL thought it was and what they intended it to be that matters. Anything going forward is a different ballgame and also not relevant.
You are mistaken. Traffic is not popularity, and there is nothing in the Places tab that suggests it is. What LL thought years ago is irrelevant. The only relevant thing is what things are like now, and now there is no suggestion that the Places tab has anything at all to do with 'popularity'. It states "Traffic" and the traffic numbers are accurate, and in no way deceptive. There are many reasons why unpopular traffic adds up the traffic numbers, so the traffic numbers do not represent a measure of a place's popularity, and nobody should think that they do.

Most people you see in SL were created this year or late last year. They don't remember back when Popular Places actually listed places where real people were. They only know what they see, and they see the Places tab listings according to traffic, and not according to popularity.

From: Gabriele Graves
Of course this would be much simpler if you could just admit you are wrong, just once. Then we could move forward and discuss something that is not beginning to bore you.
I did - about saying that the Pop Places tab had gone, but I also pointed out that I'd asked if it is only gone in the RC. Why should someone who is right, admit to being wrong? You're the one who is wrong, so you admit it.

From: Gabriele Graves
Believe me having to spell it out for the nth time and you still not getting it is getting wearying also.
Tell me about it. No amount of me writing that traffic never has and simply cannot meaure popularity seems to get through to you, but it's absolutely true. There is no way you can win that argument. It's not a matter of opinion. I'm writing an obvious fact - a very easy to understand fact - but you are effectively saying, screw the facts - LL must have thought something different, therefore the facts must be wrong. I know which side of the debate I'd prefer to go with.
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Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
07-25-2008 04:29
Phil, I am am going to say this just one more time.
Despite what you say, the proof that LL once thought that traffic was equal to popularity is in the Popular Places tab which uses traffic.
That is proof they once thought that.

Now you show your proof, point to it, the link or reference that shows mine to be false. You cannot because you are wrong, plain and simple.

Don't be stupid of course what was once the case is relevant. You cannot argue that because it is going to change that it was never deceiving to game it in the first place.

Also I think you have absolutely *zero* idea of how many people are still using pre-1.20 viewers. LL themselves say you should only use it if you are interested in reporting bugs. Most new users download the first presented viewer that they see, which is the main released viewer.
_____________________

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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 04:35
From: Qie Niangao
But why then do they cling to this goddamned Traffic metric? It seems unlikely that the intent is to specially reward those residents with the patience to set up more trafficbots.

Ultimately this debate always comes down to those (like me) who think "popularity" is just a really dopey, unscalable, anachronistic measure of lag, totally unsuited for ranking Search results (except perhaps secretly load-balancing by steering agents *away* from busy places), versus those who cling to the notion of "popularity" as indicative of quality of product or experience and want to somehow salvage Traffic as a proxy for that.

So, to me, as long as Traffic is still around, I really don't give a crap how much it's contaminated by "gaming". Just for the sake of parsimony, however, I wish they'd just give us a little slider on parcel settings to adjust how much traffic we want, thereby freeing up the bot-builders to get on with something that has actual value.
I like the last sentence :)

I've no idea why they seem keen on keeping traffic. It has marginal value in the All search, and none at all in the Places tab search, except to allow people to influence it, and the only value then is to those few of us who do influence it. I've just had a thought...

In the "Future of traffic" meetings, they asked for suggestions as to what parcel metrics people wanted, and they recieved suggestions. It may be that they are hanging on to traffic to be one of those metrics when they come out. They've certainly intended to do away with it in the Places tab, and replacing it by the Google search with the Places filter - it's in the Wki or something like that. It should be disappearing now according to that, but there seemed to be a few problems with it.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 04:51
From: Gabriele Graves
Phil, I am am going to say this just one more time.
Despite what you say, the proof that LL once thought that traffic was equal to popularity is in the Popular Places tab which uses traffic.
That is proof they once thought that.

Now you show your proof, point to it, the link or reference that shows mine to be false. You cannot because you are wrong, plain and simple.
Gabriele, I am going to say this just one more time. I don't care, and I have never cared about what *was* - it's totally irrelevent to this discussion. The only thing that matters is what *IS*. What LL thought years ago is irrelevant. I don't need to offer proof of anything from the past, as I have only made one claim about it. What I have said is that the traffic measurement does not, and never did (the past), measured popularity. I don't need proof of that - it's a blatantly simple fact that stares everyone in the face - everyone who isn't intent on burrying their heads in the sand, that is ;)

From: Gabriele Graves
Don't be stupid of course what was once the case is relevant. You cannot argue that because it is going to change that it was never deceiving to game it in the first place.
Gabriele. I already said that you may have a point about the Popular Places tab, because of its name, but you don't have a point about the Places tab, now or in the past, because it doesn't suggest a popularity ranking.

From: Gabriele Graves
Also I think you have absolutely *zero* idea of how many people are still using pre-1.20 viewers. LL themselves say you should only use it if you are interested in reporting bugs. Most new users download the first presented viewer that they see, which is the main released viewer.
Oh, I think that most people don't use RC viewers. I made a mistake, thinking that the Pop Places tab had gone from the normal viewer, but I did wonder and asked the question. Does it matter? How much do you want to milk that little bit? And which part of "we are discussing what happens in the Places tab in this thread" don't you understand? The Pop Places tab has no bearing on the discussion of the Places tab, and what happens in the Places tab is the topic. Now...

Are you going to explain why you think that the traffic measurement is a popularity measurement, or not? Don't tell me about LL's intentions years ago, or about what they were thinking years ago. Tell me how the traffic measurement actually measures popularity. Tell me what it measures and why that is a measurement of popularity please. I'll give you a start. It measures avatar minutes on a parcel. So what makes that a measure of popularity?
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 05:07
My question could be answered in different ways, so I'll offer a scenario to hopefully get the question across...

Suppose there's a place where people go - from search, accident, word of mouth, whatever - they spend what time they want there. For some it will be seconds and for others in will be at least minutes. But before leaving everyone is forced to answer the question, "Do you like this place enough to want to come back sometime in the future?". The only answers are Yes and No, and everyone answers, because they have to.

You are saying that the total number of answers (people) = the place's popularity, but I am saying that only the Yes answers = the place's popularity.

Please tell me why you think that the total number of answers = the place's popularity.
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Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
07-25-2008 05:11
I never said I thought traffic really was representative of popularity any more. You need to read more carefully.
I said LL thought it and it is relevant that they thought it at the time the mainline viewer was made.
Now I will tell you why in hopefully simple enough terms for you and in fact answer I will even answer one of your questions though you evade mine completely, then I am going to bed.

Joe Customer joins SL today or last month, it does not really matter but downloads the currently in majority use viewer. What he sees is that traffic is in Places, he also sees that traffic is how Popular Places works therefore in his mind traffic equals Popular Places. So off he trots to get his Low Prim furniture search under way and sees a list of low prim places. He sees the ones with most traffic first and thinks these must be the most popular places as Popular Places works like that, if they are good for everyone else then I want the good stuff too and off he trots to buy his low prim furniture. Which is of course exactly what the low prim furniture vendor wants regardless of the protestations he constantly gives.
This is a lie and a deception, that low prim vendor is using bots, he is making the customer think his place is where most people shop for their low prim furniture when in fact it is not.

That is what is happening today, it is what is being discussed, it is totally relevant and on topic and what is coming in future viewers has no relevancy in the mind of the fairly avarage shopping customer today.

Good night
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
07-25-2008 05:33
From: Phil Deakins
In this instance, I'm saying that traffic is not a measurement of popularity. Do you disagree? If you do, please explain why.


If traffic is not a measure of popularity, it is because people like you have abused it for your own gain.

If traffic were not abused by bots and camping, what would it indicate?
It would be a measure of the number of avatars visiting a parcel and of the time that they spent there.

Overall, it would be an indicator of popularity.
Now, it could happen that a poor-quality parcel would draw a very large number of one-time visitors due to advertising. Avatars land, look around, see crap and leave.
Would that increase their traffic score in a misleading way?
It would if traffic was simply a visitor count.
However, traffic score is strongly influenced by the amount of time that an avatar spends on the parcel. The poor-quality parcel that does not retain the large number of avatars that land on it will not score as high as a parcel that might have a much smaller number of visitors, but retains then for longer.
It follows that when traffic is not gamed, it is a good overall indicator of the popularity of the parcel.

If someone is searching for something, the higher traffic numbers are intuitively an indication that the chances of meeting others and/or finding a decent whatever are higher in those parcels.
Bots and camping destroy that system.


It's very simple. The whole point of bots and campers is to keep numbers of avatars on the parcel. They are not kept on the parcel by the quality/popularity of the parcel.

You bang on about traffic not being a measure of popularity. You wilfully ignore the fact is is not so now because people like you have destroyed it as a useful indicator to others.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 06:36
From: Gabriele Graves
I never said I thought traffic really was representative of popularity any more. You need to read more carefully.
Who needs to read more carefully? You, on page 20:-

From: Gabriele Graves
Actaully making search say your place is more popular because you shove 20 bots up there to game the traffic is falsifying the data, hence lying.
What's that you're saying about using bots to game the traffic to make search say my place is more popular?

My reply to it:-

From: someone
People don't make the search say that their places are more popular.
Your reply (post #296 on page 20):-

From: Gabriele Graves
Traffic is the measure of how much traffic your parcel has seen, hence how popular it is.
And there it is again. I'm sure you will forgive me if I have misunderstood, but, with the best will in the world, you *have* been saying that traffic represents a parcel's popularity - right now - in the present. I've been repeating all through this part that traffic is not an indication of popularity, and this is the first time you've denied saying it. So now you agree that traffic does not represent popularity. What took you so long?

From: Gabriele Graves
I said LL thought it and it is relevant that they thought it at the time the mainline viewer was made.
See above.

From: Gabriele Graves
Now I will tell you why in hopefully simple enough terms for you and in fact answer I will even answer one of your questions though you evade mine completely, then I am going to bed.

Joe Customer joins SL today or last month, it does not really matter but downloads the currently in majority use viewer. What he sees is that traffic is in Places, he also sees that traffic is how Popular Places works therefore in his mind traffic equals Popular Places. So off he trots to get his Low Prim furniture search under way and sees a list of low prim places. He sees the ones with most traffic first and thinks these must be the most popular places as Popular Places works like that, if they are good for everyone else then I want the good stuff too and off he trots to buy his low prim furniture. Which is of course exactly what the low prim furniture vendor wants regardless of the protestations he constantly gives.
This is a lie and a deception, that low prim vendor is using bots, he is making the customer think his place is where most people shop for their low prim furniture when in fact it is not.

That is what is happening today, it is what is being discussed, it is totally relevant and on topic and what is coming in future viewers has no relevancy in the mind of the fairly avarage shopping customer today.

Good night
You didn't answer my question, and I'm unaware of missing an answer to any of yours. To be honest, I don't recall you asking any. When you get up, please show me any that I've missed.

Unfortunately, your story isn't what's happening, it's all in your imagination, and invented solely because you want the influencing of the traffic figures to be deception. You are wrong. I've tried to explain it as clearly as I know how, and you avoided everything except two irrelevant bits (what LL thought years ago, and the Popular Places tab) that you thought suited you. But they don't.

As my little scenario shows, av minutes are not representative of a place's popularity, and you've now agreed. It's a pity it took so long. Since that is so, the influencing of av minutes does not make a place appear more popular than it is. In your imagined scenario it does, and I can't say that what you described never happens, but I can say that you've no idea what happens. I can also say that the Places tab - the search that is affected by influencing the traffic numbers - does not suggest, and has never suggested, that the results are listed according to popularity. You made a big point that traffic represents popularity because I stated that traffic isn't popularity, and since it isn't, the accusations of deception, due to faking a place's popularity, fail.

You've been clutching at straws, and it's a shame that you couldn't find the will to debate matter-of-factly, rather than try to find little things that you hope will support your deception idea.
_____________________
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Skell Dagger
Smitten
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,885
07-25-2008 06:41
From: Phil Deakins
Unfortunately, your story isn't what's happening, it's all in your imagination, and invented solely because you want the influencing of the traffic figures to be deception.
Impressive mind-reading skills there. Don't suppose you know what this week's UK Lotto numbers will be, do you?
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 07:04
From: Sling Trebuchet
If traffic is not a measure of popularity, it is because people like you have abused it for your own gain.
What I do, I do for gain, but traffic does not represent popularity, and never has, so it couldn't have been me and people like me who made it not so. If you'd care to go back 2 pages and read my long post, you might get an understanding of why influencing the traffic is not about popularity. It's all there, and I'm not going to repeat it here.

From: Sling Trebuchet
If traffic were not abused by bots and camping, what would it indicate?
It would be a measure of the number of avatars visiting a parcel and of the time that they spent there.
But it wouldn't be a measure of the parcel's popularity. The traffic figures are accurate - there is no deception.

From: Sling Trebuchet
Overall, it would be an indicator of popularity.
see my last comment.

From: Sling Trebuchet
Now, it could happen that a poor-quality parcel would draw a very large number of one-time visitors due to advertising. Avatars land, look around, see crap and leave.
Would that increase their traffic score in a misleading way?
It would if traffic was simply a visitor count.
However, traffic score is strongly influenced by the amount of time that an avatar spends on the parcel. The poor-quality parcel that does not retain the large number of avatars that land on it will not score as high as a parcel that might have a much smaller number of visitors, but retains then for longer.
It follows that when traffic is not gamed, it is a good overall indicator of the popularity of the parcel. It's a good indicator
Influencing the traffic numbers makes no difference to this. People will go to a place, some will like it and some will not. The traffic they produce will not indicate how many, if any, of the people liked the place, and how many didn't. That's the point. Traffic does not equate to popularity.

From: Sling Trebuchet
If someone is searching for something, the higher traffic numbers are intuitively an indication that the chances of meeting others and/or finding a decent whatever are higher in those parcels.
For a social place, perhaps so - I already said that. But not so for a store. When people are looking for something, they are not interested whether or not other people are there, and their intuitivity doesn't get a run out.

From: Sling Trebuchet
It's very simple. The whole point of bots and campers is to keep numbers of avatars on the parcel. They are not kept on the parcel by the quality/popularity of the parcel.
Nobody said they were. Traffic isn't about quality or popularity. That's been established already.

From: Sling Trebuchet
You bang on about traffic not being a measure of popularity. You wilfully ignore the fact is is not so now because people like you have destroyed it as a useful indicator to others.
I don't think I ignored it. I already said that when I joined SL the Pop Places tab seemed to list actual popular places, even though camping was well on the go. I can't say what the Places results were like because I really don't know, but camping was well on the go, so I guess the Places results were already very affected. What I can say is that, when I came across the idea of bots, about 6 months ago, it was all up and running, giving me no chance of top rankings due solely to normal traffic, so I joined them. I didn't cause it, but you are right that people 'like me' caused something that wasn't popularity, but did a reasonable job at it, to change to something that doesn't do a reasonable job of representing popularity. I'd never heard of SL at the time, but i assume that's correct. However...

Nobody denies influencing the traffic figure to get higher in the rankings. What I do deny is that I influence my 'popularity', because there is no such thing. I deny pretending to be more popular than I am (my place, I mean), because the Places tab search doesn't list according to popularity. And I deny that there is any deception. In fact, I proved that there is no deception. The only people who think there is, are those who have closed minds and refuse to have them changed by mere facts.

I was accused of falsifying my place's popularity, and I have proved that to be false. And I have stated that my place's traffic figure is always absolutely correct - and it is (except when SL fails to update). There is no deception.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
07-25-2008 07:05
From: Skell Dagger
Impressive mind-reading skills there. Don't suppose you know what this week's UK Lotto numbers will be, do you?
Ty :) When it comes to me, I'll be sure to let you know :D
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
07-25-2008 07:24
From: Phil Deakins
......................

Influencing the traffic numbers makes no difference to this. People will go to a place, some will like it and some will not. The traffic they produce will not indicate how many, if any, of the people liked the place, and how many didn't. That's the point. Traffic does not equate to popularity.
..................


Yeah! People hang around in places that they don't like rather than going off to find somewhere they do like.

"Come on! This place is crap. Let's go"
- "No. Let's stay. I hate this place"
"Come on!! A friend gave me a LM to a really great place!"
- "No. I want to stay here. This place is useless and awful".


If traffic were simply a visitor count, you would have a point.
Traffic is more influenced by the time that people spend in a place.
If it were otherwise we'd have armies of bots just visiting places briefly. Traffic is about keeping avatars on the parcel.
Choices:
1) Make a place that earns high traffic through people liking the place and hanging around, telling their friends, blogging, etc. which generates more visits.
2) Bribe people to stay (even if they are just parking an avatar there and leaving it)
3) Put a bunch of your own (or hired) alts in a box.
_____________________
Maggie: We give our residents a lot of tools, to build, create, and manage their lands and objects. That flexibility also requires people to exercise judgment about when things should be used.
http://www.ace-exchange.com/home/story/BDVR/589
Cael Merryman
Brain in Neutral
Join date: 5 Dec 2007
Posts: 380
07-25-2008 07:34
From: Sling Trebuchet
If traffic is not a measure of popularity, it is because people like you...

If someone is searching for something, the higher traffic numbers are intuitively an indication that the chances of meeting others and/or finding a decent whatever are higher in those parcels.
Bots and camping destroy that system.


...QUOTE]

I disagree, at least in part. I search on word combinations and, when shopping, don't give a rats behind (apologies to any rat avatars) what the place looks like. Bots don't irritate and mislead me as much as people that list words to snag search results and don't have the item on site, or it is buried off in a corner on some vendor so it won' show up in the detailed list. So, yeah, I spend a fair amount of time there hunting for the hidden or non-existent and leave pissed off.

Better organized sites and ones with objects on the floor (my absolute preference) so that items show up on detailed search mean that I can land, walk to the item, check out in a sec whether the prim count and price meet my needs, and buy or move on. A hell of a lot more popular with me at that moment and later, but doesn't help their results.

Most of my concerns with bots have been answered. You seem to be tilting at non-consequential windmills. And do remember that the phrase refers to a situation that wasn't what the protagonist thought it was... Just my opinion.
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