BOT places! List them here!
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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07-25-2008 13:12
From: MortVent Charron only paid accounts counting for the traffic numbers. NOW you are on to something. however, i can camp and earn enough to pay for several premium accounts at the yearly level, and after stipend for the whole year, i'd recycle the income. the only entity who benefits from traffic counts (ultimately) is LL, which is why it's still around. sure, you have a handful of folks who camp and cash out, but most use it ingame for the game.... this deduced from speaking to others who camp.
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it was fun while it lasted. http://2lf.informe.com/
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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07-25-2008 13:20
From: 3Ring Binder NOW you are on to something. however, i can camp and earn enough to pay for several premium accounts at the yearly level, and after stipend for the whole year, i'd recycle the income. the only entity who benefits from traffic counts (ultimately) is LL, which is why it's still around.
sure, you have a handful of folks who camp and cash out, but most use it ingame for the game.... this deduced from speaking to others who camp. Hence it most likely being hardware or ip addresses being used. Including the possibility of only the official client be counted due to a registry entry for the software... ruins an advantage of alts, but also helps with tracking abusers and the like.
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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07-25-2008 13:23
From: MortVent Charron Hence it most likely being hardware or ip addresses being used. Including the possibility of only the official client be counted due to a registry entry for the software... ruins an advantage of alts, but also helps with tracking abusers and the like. and what if there are several folks in a big ol tall building who happen to log in to SL daily... at lunch braek, let's say. the one company uses the same IP for all the logins... do you find that a fair solution?
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it was fun while it lasted. http://2lf.informe.com/
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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07-25-2008 13:26
From: 3Ring Binder i have no problem with you running your bots. they don't bother anyone except those who don't understand business practice, and that is super easy to ignore. hehe. It should be, but I'm sure you know me by now  I only came into this thread to get my place listed, as a bit of fun, and I can often just ignore stuff, but sometime my mood is to enjoy a good debate. Where it goes wrong is when people, who can't be content that others have different views, turn to insults. I've no patience with that and I justly retaliate. I did it myself twice some ago. It followed a particularly nasty thread, and I got 'stuck in' in 2 threads soon afterwards. I almost started a thread to apologise about them, but someone suggested I wait and work in into other threads. I do understand the feeling of really wanting to insult people who seem like brick walls because you're not getting through. I feel it myself, but I stick to retaliating, rather than throwing the first stone. With threads like this, and even with non-bot threads, it can be difficult at times, because I'm the only one here who is known to run traffic bots in significant numbers, so I am a natural target for a few anti-bot people who can't restrain themselves. It's usually them against me - very one-sided - and I think they imagine they must be in the right because I'm the only arguing against them. In fact that sort of thing has been said in the past. But they are mistaken. The only reason it's one-sided here is because I'm the only known bot-runner here, and most people here don;t get invloved. I've rambled a bit, haven't I?
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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07-25-2008 13:28
From: 3Ring Binder and what if there are several folks in a big ol tall building who happen to log in to SL daily... at lunch braek, let's say. the one company uses the same IP for all the logins... do you find that a fair solution? Yes, considering it's possible to get the subnet ip address through the client. If they all use one computer, still fair.
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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07-25-2008 13:30
From: MortVent Charron Could be even more restricted and limit it to one IP/hardware address or only paid accounts counting for the traffic numbers. Many people are on dynamic IPs so, without thinking a lot, I'm not sure that that would work. The payment used sounds good at first, but, if I'm not mistaken, most people are NPIOF, and way too much of the real people traffic wouldn't be counted for places. [added] per computer sounds reasonable at first thought.
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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07-25-2008 13:37
From: Phil Deakins rambled  yes, you're the only outspoken botter here. however, there are regulars who have bots. maybe not 20, but more than a couple. they keep their traps shut because they don't want to be attacked. but they do it, because it brings them more income. if someone dropped a computer on my front step, i'd totally do it too. and if i do get another one (which i hope to in October) you can bet your bottom dollar i will also be pumping up the traffic in a few of my places around SL. retaliation is such wasted time. just like you will not waiver, neither will they. but if you like to argue nonsensically, don't let my opinion stand in your way. or, maybe we could argue about the (un)worthiness of arguing. 
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it was fun while it lasted. http://2lf.informe.com/
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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07-25-2008 13:38
From: MortVent Charron Yes, considering it's possible to get the subnet ip address through the client. If they all use one computer, still fair. you're quickly going beyond my knowledge base, at this point. therefore, i find no further need to question your idea. LOL
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it was fun while it lasted. http://2lf.informe.com/
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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07-25-2008 13:47
From: 3Ring Binder retaliation is such wasted time. just like you will not waiver, neither will they. but if you like to argue nonsensically, don't let my opinion stand in your way. or, maybe we could argue about the (un)worthiness of arguing.  Yes it is, but I find it much too difficult not to retaliate with some things. E.g. when someone posts something like "you're a fraud, you're a cheat, you scam this, and you scam that, and you scam the other, and you cheat this and you cheat those. you're a liar", I do find it hard not to let it rest at that, and my natural reaction is to retaliate. More fool me, I guess.
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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07-25-2008 13:48
From: Phil Deakins Yes it is, but I it much too difficult not to retaliate with some things. E.g. when someone posts something like "you a fraud, your a cheat, you scam this, and you scam that, and you cheat this and you cheat those. you're a liar Philly boy", I do find it hard not to let it rest at that, and my natural reaction is to retaliate. More fool me, I guess. whereas i would laff, add fuel to the fire by enhancing the insults while making the mudslinger look stupid... easy AND fun.
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it was fun while it lasted. http://2lf.informe.com/
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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07-25-2008 13:53
From: 3Ring Binder yes, you're the only outspoken botter here. however, there are regulars who have bots. maybe not 20, but more than a couple. they keep their traps shut because they don't want to be attacked. So they sit back and let me take all the flack??? The meanies lol (j/k, of course)
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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07-25-2008 14:01
From: Phil Deakins So they sit back and let me take all the flack??? The meanies lol (j/k, of course) Phil you throw as much mud as anyone. I don't know about other people .. but what annoys me is the spin, the attempted justification, the hurled insults, the claims about things I know to be untrue. Rather than say 3Rings attitude which essentially seems like its "I'm allowed to camp, it will make me money, so I'm gonna." Which is quite a bit different.
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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07-25-2008 16:22
From: 3Ring Binder ... the only entity who benefits from traffic counts (ultimately) is LL, which is why it's still around.
sure, you have a handful of folks who camp and cash out, but most use it ingame for the game.... this deduced from speaking to others who camp. So I get it that traffic drives up concurrency (whether from campers or bots), but do we think there's some other way LL benefits, too?
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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07-25-2008 16:26
From: Qie Niangao So I get it that traffic drives up concurrency (whether from campers or bots), but do we think there's some other way LL benefits, too? Bigger fake numbers. Basically it. Linden Lab is the ultimate traffic gamer.
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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07-25-2008 16:33
From: Colette Meiji Rather than say 3Rings attitude which essentially seems like its "I'm allowed to camp, it will make me money, so I'm gonna." Which is quite a bit different. actually, to be fair, i agree with Phil's stance fully. i have no problem with botting and camping and raising traffic numbers to get higher in search. it's a business strategy you do not agree with. however, it is simply that, a business strategy. if i can gain income - real money - money i can spend in other ways that i find entertaining, or to buy milk in RL... i will do whatever to make that income as long as no one is being harmed. people who are in competition for the same product in SL are not being harmed by Phils botting, or my camping. now, if i did same things in RL to someone who was feeding a whole family with their income, i can see maybe changing my methods. but SL is a game, and anyone who relies on it as their sole income is either #1 already making enough $$ that Phil's little skybox isn't going to take food from their mouth; or #2 if they aren't making enough to rely on it fully and they want to, then they'll also do whatever they gotta do to make that happen; and #3 if they aren't making it and they don't have a RL job then they are stupid. we do not agree Collette. but that doesn't mean i don't respect your perspective. no matter what you say, for no matter how long, you will never ever ever convert Phil, nor he you. it is that cut and dry. but you two seem to enjoy the banter and prodding and poking, so carry on.
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it was fun while it lasted. http://2lf.informe.com/
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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07-25-2008 16:35
From: Qie Niangao So I get it that traffic drives up concurrency (whether from campers or bots), but do we think there's some other way LL benefits, too? i suppose if they are trying to keep some sort of reputation for a future sale (which i feel is inevitable), that could be a long term goal. i really haven't given it much thought beyond my previous reply. land owners want traffic so people will shop at their store. landowners pay premium and tier. campers take $ and pay premium and tier. all the way around, LL is getting almost all that money. if you were LL, would YOU cancel traffic counts?
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it was fun while it lasted. http://2lf.informe.com/
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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07-25-2008 16:42
From: 3Ring Binder actually, to be fair, i agree with Phil's stance fully. i have no problem with botting and camping and raising traffic numbers to get higher in search. it's a business strategy you do not agree with. however, it is simply that, a business strategy Its a business strategy that is a corruption of the system as it was originally intended and its deceptive by nature. Its one thing to support or use such a business strategy. Its another thing to go to all lengths to justify it. There is a difference there. I do not see you as trying to justify the situation. However Phil on the other hand goes to the point where he calls those who disagree with him stupid and worse. At some times you can basically see him frothing out the mouth. Theres no banter - Phil has me on ignore. However it seems hes found surrogates (such as Gaby) to go after. Even the first time Phil and I argued over this I pointed out I take more exception to the spin and bullshit injected into the conversation than those people actually running the trafficbots. After all - they are trying to compete in a world where "everyone else" does it.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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07-25-2008 16:49
From: 3Ring Binder actually, to be fair, i agree with Phil's stance fully. i have no problem with botting and camping and raising traffic numbers to get higher in search. it's a business strategy you do not agree with. however, it is simply that, a business strategy. if i can gain income - real money - money i can spend in other ways that i find entertaining, or to buy milk in RL... i will do whatever to make that income as long as no one is being harmed. people who are in competition for the same product in SL are not being harmed by Phils botting, or my camping.
. So would you condone offering cooked books to potential investors? It is the same principle. Phil is being deceptive about the number of people who visit his store in order to enrich himself. He is committing a fraud plain and simple.
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I'm going to pick a fight William Wallace, Braveheart
“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind” Douglas MacArthur
FULL
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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07-25-2008 16:56
From: 3Ring Binder if you were LL, would YOU cancel traffic counts? Yeah, I sure would! And I'd make *all* Search-ranking pay-for-play: the *only* way to "win" would be by paying more Classified fees, otherwise the sort order would be based strictly on information value of text match with parcel description and contents. No Traffic, no phony IBLs, just straight simple L$s paid. LL would walk away with a *lot* more revenue from this than they do from all the Traffic manipulation methods. And ultimately the gamed user-count numbers fool absolutely nobody who matters. Yes, of course people could still use irrelevant description terms, but that's ultimately a loosing proposition: if there's nothing "neko" in a neko-described destination, they're not gonna get much business from neko-shoppers. And anyway, in my formulation, the more frequently a term is used in all descriptions, the less weight it would get because the less information it conveys. I sometimes wonder if some folks in LL really don't understand that L$ sinks (like Classified fees) are revenue sources. I know some have managed to convince some residents of that in the past, but it's difficult to imagine that any Lindens really don't understand their own business better than that.
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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07-25-2008 17:33
From: Chris Norse So would you condone offering cooked books to potential investors? It is the same principle. Phil is being deceptive about the number of people who visit his store in order to enrich himself. He is committing a fraud plain and simple. Oh behave Chris! I expect better from you. when you walk into a store and see an offer of "Buy one get one free" do you turn away because your moral compass says that's unfair to the competition?
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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07-25-2008 17:45
From: 3Ring Binder but you two seem to enjoy the banter and prodding and poking, so carry on. Correction: Colette enjoys it. I haven't seen a word that she has written in a very long time, unless someone quotes it. I'm sure she know that.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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07-25-2008 17:47
From: Chris Norse So would you condone offering cooked books to potential investors? It is the same principle. Phil is being deceptive about the number of people who visit his store in order to enrich himself. He is committing a fraud plain and simple. Whatever. You do it your way, and I'll do it mine, and I'll be in riches befoooore you. (sung to the tune of Loch Lomond) 
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Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
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07-25-2008 17:48
From: Phil Deakins I've lost track of this somewhere. You were talking about the Google system. It already has paid ads in its results pages, and there's no need for any more. I thought you were still talking about the Places tab (traffic) search. Oh yeah this guy definitely never gets confused at all. He also either chooses not understand what people are trying to say or is incapable. Instead he tries to discredit the people credibility by twisting their words and trying to trip them up instead of attempting to discern what the person is actually trying to say. I find it hard to believe he truly does not get or understand my point which is shared by others here. That that would make him truly the least intelligent person in the room and I do believe him to be smarter than that. I believe him to understand perfectly that doing what he does is creating falsehoods and dishonesty, I suspect that many of the people who don't have a problem with what he does can also see many will be deceived - they just believe that all is fair in business. I believe him to be disingenious and extreme obtuse to continue to argue that what he does is not deceiving or false. I can only think that he he really has a huge guilt problem over the whole thing that he wishes to try to silence. Sure I make mistakes in some of the things I say and the words I type are not always representative of what I want to say. Text is a difficult medium sometimes. Someone who truly wishes to understand my point of view will look beyond this human failing and at my intent. Especially an intent that is repeated and expounding upon time after time by others. Far more than others who come to say that they think Phil is right incidentally. This is not about word games and waiting until people trip up before using that to discredit them. It is about having the balls to admit that if you are going to deceive people with your actions then you don't try and hide behind assertions in a stupid attempt to make you look like you are not deceiving people. Though I suppose if a person is that deceptive in his actions then we cannot expect honesty from him about what he his doing either. The biggest lies are the ones we tell ourselves after all. Is it any wonder that I and others feel that he does not want discussion but just wants to quell opposition to his questionable practices? How can you have any discussion with anyone who refuses to believe he can be wrong? So I am going back to my previous stance of debating with anyone but him. After this post Phil you can assume I am addressing everyone else, not you. Don't expect replies to your questions or demands for your points to be addressed. Yes Phil, you won the word game between us - congratulations however you did not manage to convince anyone that you are not deceptive and false in your thoughts, words or deeds and are not likely to and certainly did not prove your argument to be the correct one. All you show is that you are the Master of twisting words.
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 Trout Rating: I'm giving you an 8.2 on the Troutchter Earth-Movement Slut Scale. You are an amazing, enchanting woman, and, when the situation calls for it, a slut of the very best sort. Congratulations and shame on you!
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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07-25-2008 17:49
From: Ciaran Laval Oh behave Chris! I expect better from you. when you walk into a store and see an offer of "Buy one get one free" do you turn away because your moral compass says that's unfair to the competition? A sale is not a deceptive practice. Having a bunch of paid shills go on forums and promote your product pretending to be end users is. Having bots/campers to boost your ranking in search through deceptive traffic scores is not having a sale. It's equivalent to the a movie theater counting everyone that walks in and out the doors to boost the number of visitors to the location for advertising purposes (and then at the bottom of the add in real fine print going - all visitors counted coming and going) The only reason campers see less hate is it actually costs the landowner some lindens to run the camp pads.
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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07-25-2008 17:51
From: Gabriele Graves Oh yeah this guy definitely never gets confused at all. He also either chooses not understand what people are trying to say or is incapable. Instead he tries to discredit the people credibility by twisting their words and trying to trip them up instead of attempting to discern what the person is actually trying to say.
I find it hard to believe he truly does not get or understand my point which is shared by others here. That that would make him truly the least intelligent person in the room and I do believe him to be smarter than that.
I believe him to understand perfectly that doing what he does is creating falsehoods and dishonesty, I suspect that many of the people who don't have a problem with what he does can also see many will be deceived - they just believe that all is fair in business. I believe him to be disingenious and extreme obtuse to continue to argue that what he does is not deceiving or false. I can only think that he he really has a huge guilt problem over the whole thing that he wishes to try to silence.
Sure I make mistakes in some of the things I say and the words I type are not always representative of what I want to say. Text is a difficult medium sometimes. Someone who truly wishes to understand my point of view will look beyond this human failing and at my intent. Especially an intent that is repeated and expounding upon time after time by others. Far more than others who come to say that they think Phil is right incidentally. This is not about word games and waiting until people trip up before using that to discredit them. It is about having the balls to admit that if you are going to deceive people with your actions then you don't try and hide behind assertions in a stupid attempt to make you look like you are not deceiving people. Though I suppose if a person is that deceptive in his actions then we cannot expect honesty from him about what he his doing either. The biggest lies are the ones we tell ourselves after all.
Is it any wonder that I and others feel that he does not want discussion but just wants to quell opposition to his questionable practices?
How can you have any discussion with anyone who refuses to believe he can be wrong? So I am going back to my previous stance of debating with anyone but him. After this post Phil you can assume I am addressing everyone else, not you. Don't expect replies to your questions or demands for your points to be addressed.
Yes Phil, you won the word game between us - congratulations however you did not manage to convince anyone that you are not deceptive and false in your thoughts, words or deeds and are not likely to and certainly did not prove your argument to be the correct one. All you show is that you are the Master of twisting words. You believe what you want, dear - it's no skin off my nose. If you want to think I twisted anything you said, feel free. I'm not the one who said one thing and then the opposite - even in the same post once - but whatever floats your boat.
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