BOT places! List them here!

IMHO Phil, you have done yourself a great disservice by arguing against the obvious.

I think you fully understand what Chip, etal, are attempting to convey, but you chose to play word-games and hold steadfast to a flawed argument. The point being, LL's intent behind the traffic metric was to, in fact, identify and reward those locations which were of interest, hence the word "popular," to residents. The higher the traffic the number, it was reasoned, the greater the interest/popularity.

You personally need not think the place, in fact, popular. Your mere presence at the location rendered the location of *more* interest, hence *more* popular, than the location in which your presence was, in fact, not graced by. Your reward for your location being more attractive/popular to residents, as gauged by your locations traffic numbers, was a development stipend by LL, to you, every month. They higher your traffic for the month, they more money LL would pay you. This development stipend was removed by LL when camping bots came into existence in SL. LL, themselves, realized they were starting to be gamed and thus removed the stipend.

Does not that say it all?

Long story short, do you really believe that LL would enter into an agreement of paying residents money according to traffic, if they did not think that traffic, as it was intended, did not equal to that interest or popularity that the community assigned it?

Perhaps you don't believe "popular" to be the correct word because you surmise that one does not have to think a place popular to be at that location. But the obvious is clear, and this point is missed by your argument.

We understand your point Phil. But it is not relevant to this particular discussion. Some of us have been around SL too long to understand what was, and what is.

Acknowledge and concede.

It is not too late.

I know, but that's what they are arguing against.

That's exactly what they've been arguing about - *many* pages of it.

You can call it selffish and greed-driven if you like. I call it ordinary business, as does most of the rest of the world. But I don't mind what you call it. Perish the thought that some people would actually try to make real money from SL - how selfish and greedy of them!!! You are entitled to your opinions, and I won't try to change them.

I wasn't here when dwell was operating. At least I don't think I was. I only heard the word recently. But history doesn't matter. What matters is what we find today.

I'm always honest.

Absolutely not! I manipulate the traffic numbers - call it gaming if you want - but I *never* make out that anyone is a fool who doesn't do the same. Please stop inventing things, and practise the honesty that you seem to like so much.

Then stop trying to discuss it with me, if you think I'm dishonest. You haven't exactly shown total honesty even in the post I'm replying to.

Now... you would find fault with me if I instulted you - right? Don't you think that calling me dishonest and a gutter feeder is insulting to me? I do. You invent that I'm dishonest, without offering any evidence of it, and you use the emotive phrase "gutter feeder" to describe me. Do you think I should be nice to you, and ignore your insults, or are you happy enough to be insulting, and it's only me who at fault if I respond in like manner. Grow up, for goodness sakes, and get some sense into your head.

Cheyenne:

I have never denied the way that traffic came about, or what was intended by it. I can't - I wasn't here at the time. And I've said more than once that, as a measure of popularity, it appeared to work back when I arrived. The places listed in Popular Places really did have plenty of people in them (plus some campers). The only point I've been making about the word "popularity" is that the way that traffic is measured, it is not a measure of a place's actual popularity. It is merely a measure of avatar minutes on the parcel, for whatever reason. Take away the campers and bots, and it is still not a measure of popularity, and never was, even though it did work for that purpose back then

I'm not wrong about that, but it's important to those who are arguing against the obvious, because they cannot concede the point. If they concede it, then they can no longer use popularity as an argument against bots, and it's one of their main arguments. That's what this is about.

Ok, this is a good starting point.

So, would you then agree that if not for camping/traffic bots, it could still be a reasonably good gauge of a location's interest or popularity?

Definitely. The way that traiffc is measured does provide a reasonable guage of popularity. I've never said anything different - just that it is not a measure of popularity.

Do traffic bots then not convalute the "gauge of reasonableness" in said popularity?

Yes.

*blink*

What? Is that a suggestion that I've said something different? If it is, would you like to show it? Or are you just stirring?

Would it implant, in the minds of those using "search," that your location is reasonably more popular, or of more interest, to the community at large because your traffic numbers are *higher* than the next location.

That depends on each of them. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been anything in the Places tab (the only place where traffic is seen to be used) that suggest that the numbers represent popularity. It's possible that some people would infer it after looking in the now defunct Popular Places tab, but that would be their inference. I've said that before too But it's down to people how they view the traffic numbers.

Is that fair to those who don't subscribe to using traffic bots, for whatever reason, and instead chose to rely on accurate, non-traffic bot, traffic numbers?

It is not a matter of fairness. There is no moral requirement for a business to not promote itself because others don't, or to not use a particular means of promotion just because others don't, and there is every reason to gain promotional edges when possible. It's perfectly normal. If a business can get the most prominent placard space before its competitors, it will. It's nothing to do with being fair to competitors.

Is your answer then, that it is not fair?

Yes or no question.

It is perfectly fair.

So just to clarify>

It is your contention that it is fair to leap-frog ahead of your competitors in the search listings by the mere use of traffic bots, even though they are not resorting to this tactic?

Yes.

The reason it is fair to them is because everyone is free to do it, and there is no moral or ethical reason for a business *not* to use a particular type of promotion, just because its competitors are not using it. But they are free to use it, so it is perfectly fair.

Nevermind. I just misunderstood what you said. Misread more like. Carry on.

You consider this tactic a "promotion?"

Please let me know when you've finished asking these questions. I'll answer them as long as you keep asking them.

Yes. That's what it is - promoting the business. It's the only reason for it.

Thank you.

I'm trying to wrap my brain around all this....never really paid attention to Bots....not even really sure what they are.....but for instance....when I go to a furniture store....that is in popular places....on the map....there is this huge long line of green dots....but when I go to the store....I don't see people.....those are Bots?

And the purpose of the Bot is to increase traffic....is that done just by showing that there is a ton of green dots on the map? and people want to go to places with more people? (I don't).....but is there another way the bot increases the traffic count?

Do the zombie bots look like real avatars?

Gaming the "search" by placing dozens of bots in the sky in your store, in an effort to raise its traffic numbers thereby leap-frogging it above your competitor's locations in search, is a "promotion?"

The columns of green dots are bots - for a store, anyway.

The reason they are are there is because the traffic figure is simply avatar minutes on the land in the 24 hours. The higher the traffic figure, the higher in the Places tab rankings a place is listed.

Bots are just avatars.