Well, I guess Ageplay is now Officially banned

First: Sex with a child imagianed or real = bad and you should be punished for it.

However, I find your statement here or at least the bolded part rather desturbing as well why on gods green earth woul dyou be discussing sex in any mannor with a child... asumming said child is not old enough to have the birds and the bees talk...

Imagined or real? Sorry, but that's nonsense. How does this sound: murder is bad, no matter if real or only imagined. There is no such thing as a thought crime, and roleplay is nothing else than a thought. Or writing a story in real time. Should writing about a crime be punished?

LL is an Internet Service Provider. It provides us a platform by which we exchange information, communicate and publish content. Exactly as the company that provides you internet access.

ISPs are no responsible for content posted by its users. They are required to act when their service is used for illegal activities. Which is what LL did when the germans pointed to a situation that is illegal in Germany. If LL hadn't acted then they would probably have been liable in Germany.

Please note that 2/3 of SL users are outside the US.



You can think of LL as a publisher of information too. Like a magazine. Most of this information is generated by users but LL reserve the right to do whatever they wish with it. If they want to censor you they have every right to do so.

LL is not selling a product but making a service available users.

An exercise for those that don't believe a child AV performing a sex act isn't child pornography.

1. Log into SL, find a child AV and have sex with it
2. Take screenshots of it
3. Take it to your local authority and ask them whether that image constitutes child pornography.

If you are in the US you may want to read on the FBI website.

Because of a 2003 federal obscenity law, that’s illegal . The law, designed to help protect children from sexual exploitation, makes it a federal crime to produce or distribute obscene drawings, cartoons, paintings, or any other visual representations involving the sexual abuse of children.

On December 1, Whorley—who had spent time in jail on previous federal child pornography charges—became the first person in the U.S. to be convicted under the 2003 law. On Friday (March 10), he was sentenced to 20 years in prison and fined $7,400.

You can go ahead and argue that Whorley was convicted on other grounds, but if the FBi say that it's a crime to 'produce or distribute obscene drawings, cartoons, paintings, or any other visual representations involving the sexual abuse of children' I have to assume this is the case.

This is the US. In germany and other there are similar laws in place.

Good luck.

I am one of those 2/3.
Rape, slavery and bestiality are also illegal in Germany. But that shouldn't matter, since roleplay between adults in SL is not real, no matter what the roleplay scenario might include. It's consentual, it's virtual and it's as surreal as a thought or a fictional story.

Again, which country will be next to point out something illegal (by their laws)? Pretty much everything is illegal somewhere, except for breathing.

I made an investment here, and I won't stand by as the TOS I signed up for and accepted when I bought land is changed at will based on foreign laws against thought crimes.



If LL is not selling a product... why did they sell an island for $1200 to my Alt? And why do I keep paying maintenance for the product I purchased? That's a bit different from writing a letter to a newspaper and complaining when it isn't published.

Aleister is exactly right. I wasn't going to comment on this, seeing as it's such a controversial subject, but I fully believe that the accused in the original post did nothing wrong. We had a situation where two adults were role-playing a scenario where one of them was under-age according to German law... but no child was ever involved in the fantasy. Nobody was harmed. This is the same as writing a novel about a pedophile... should the author be arrested?

This whole case is just bogus in my eyes. I don't respect pedophiles, and I agree with the current system we have in place to identify them in the community. But no child was involved in this particular instance. A 27 year old women used an avatar that resembled a child, and somehow this makes both participants sex offenders? I'm sorry, but this is insane. Aren't we entitled to our our own thoughts without them being subject to laws that would normally only apply to real world actions? I think about being a hitman all the time, as it's one of my primary interests in the world of fantasy. Should I be locked up for those thoughts?

This is an outrage, and it demands an immediate reform of laws to account for virtual activity between consenting adults. This case should have been dropped as soon as it was evident that both parties were of legal age.

What is the world coming to?

Yes, but the end result is something tangible: depiction of illegal material.
In Germany, like in other countries, a child AV having sex with an adult AV is that.



Who knows. LL is in a position where it needs to act when any laws are broken for any of the countries they operate in. They might no bother with Sierra Leone if only 0,00001% of usage comes from there but they might still be in trouble with the law there.

I'll say it again... LL are an Internet Service Provider and a certain modus operandi applies. From the TOS...

1.2 Linden Lab is a service provider, which means, among other things, that Linden Lab does not control various aspects of the Service.



LL's position is that everything that goes on in LL is gameplay. Perhaps you should have read the TOS in more detail:

1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab...

...You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, in any general or specific case, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right.

But this is off topic.

I'm curious as to how some threads can be closed so quickly when this four alarm fire still rages on.

Atheist Ferraris, you're missing the point.

This is not about 'thought crime'. It's about an activity between consenting adults that produces depictions of child pornography. This depiction... these images of kids having sex even in avatar format, is illegal in germany as well as other countries. It appears that it's illegal in the US too - see here.

No, I don't think I am. Various countries seem to be missing the point, however.

What occurs between consenting adults is protected by the basic right of privacy. If no child is being harmed, then what crime is being committed?

I understand alternatives views, that depictions of underaged sex is outright wrong in any situation... and I respect that. But it's merely a viewpoint, not a basis for a law. I will never submit to that.

Germany has no right to imprison or otherwise punish a person who engages in role-play with another consenting adult. Please don't mistake my viewpoint for a failure to appreciate the law's original purpose again.

If I get a prostitute to dress up as a schoolgirl, or visit a professional Domme who dresses me up in diapers (not that any of that would be among my fetishes), it's just the same: depiction of a scene that involves a person pretending to be underaged. The visual output of SL is no artwork, just as the sound during a phone talk is no work of art. It's communication between adult persons, some of them playing dress-up.

Besides: please show me any avatar in SL that clearly depicts a minor. I haven't seen any yet. It could just as well be a small sized person, a dwarf, a hobbit, a fairy, or a demon in disguise for all I know. If any law goes that far, it also has to forbid RL midgets to have sex. A book leaves much less doubt if the fictional child is meant to be a child, yet books writing about the subject aren't illegal.



They may be a mere service provider for the masses who don't own land, but LL first and foremost hosts 3D websites. They even claim to permanently sell the server space, not only rent it. The legal responsibility for the content placed on a "website" lies with the owner, not the webhoster.

SO, you have:

1- agreed that an avatar can be considered to be any age, even a fantastically old supernatural being.

2 - that discovery of this fact is relevant to the issue.

Now you want to know who can tell us the nature of the avatars age....

Yes, I can tell you that: The creator of the avatar.

So you are forced to agree: If LL catches something that LOOKS like a depiction of avatar sex with a minor, then LL should be asking the considered age of the avatar from the creator of the avatar.

Of the creator of the avatar says "two hundred years old", then it's OK, and they should not be banned.

This is your reasoning... and it clearly ends this whole issue.

Kinda surprised you didn't see this coming. It was the obvuious conclusion once someone told you that their avatar was a fantasy supernatural being.

Your missing the point again.

If roleplay as you describe it does not produce a depiction of a child in a sexual act then the laws I have referred to do not apply. These are laws that prohibit the depiction of a child in a sexual in any format, including cartoons, drawings and yes, 3D characters.

I can't be more clear than this.

No it isn't. Adults dressed up as kids are just that. Hentai and child AVs in SL are not representing adutls dressed up as kids but kids dressed up as kids.

Please refer to the link to the FBI page I posted recently.



Not sure what the laws are on writing, so will not comment.

If you want to see an avatar that is depicted as a child having sex with an av depicted as an adult check out this report on German TV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk8uNWF77gg



Precisely.

If a host's client uploads child porn to its servers and a local authority asks the host to take it offline the host is obliges to do so.

In the UK, people who get busted for child pornography are generally done for possession AND creation of indecent images. That's because by making copies of them on their computers they are deemed to be creating pictures. Regardless of thought crimes and what is or is not fantasy, if you engage in sexual ageplay in SL then you are creating indecent images. Whether or not you record them.

If you go to a prostitute and pay extra pretend to be a baby, then OK you need help, but you can't be prosecuted (in the UK at least) for child porn.

Exactly.

I've thought about the ageplay thing since my last post and changed my opinion a bit. For the life of me I cannot see what the big deal is if an adult resident in SL makes their avatar small/short/child-like/etc. Surely role-play and dressing-up is part and parcel of life in SL? Furthermore I see no reason why residents who have such avatars should be forced into dark corners for the sake of a clutch of outspoken hebephrenic paranoid moral crusaders.

I've met a few residents who indulge in the ageplay thing, mostly 'babyfurs', and they seem rational enough to me. Kinky, yes, but also rational sensible people. I don't see why they should be scapegoated. So long as it's an adult behind the screen role-playing that's fine. However if such activities are being used as a front for pedophilia by some residents, then it's those particular residents who should be dealt the banhammer rather than the entire population of babyfurs, Loli's, ageplayers, etc.

Not everyone had a happy childhood or school years. It could be extremely therapeutic to re-live those years as one would have wished them to be without the trauma originally suffered. It could be an anxious parent trying to get in touch with the current 'hip culture' in an attempt to re-connect with their children. No doubt there could be any number of other perfectly valid reasons for an adult to have a child-like avatar, let alone the clichéd ones.

I feel it is unwise to target entire groups of residents as a result of the actions of a minority who happen to be part of that community. Deal with lawbreakers on a case-by-case basis by all means, but don't tar an entire community with the crimes of an individual.

One problem with all this is that sex with children is legal in the US (where LL is located) under certain circumstances.

Example: there are age of consent laws.

You can also marry when you are a child (when parents give permission).

Also sex between children is legal.

In all three cases, sex is perfectly legal and not punishable in RL with regard to children.


Does Linden labs check the apparent ages of the avatars to see if they are both children avatars?

Does Linden labs check the partner status of the avatars?

What is the "age of consent" in Second Life?



In pornography, the age of the actors is verifiable and on file with the business, yes?
So, if someone in actual phtographic pornography looks 15, but is really 18, it is legal and OK....

Yes?

Or are the "banners" here in this debate saying that if you look young in rl, you should be prohibited from having sex, even if you are an adult?

Which is it?

How about... laws that prohibit the depiction of children in a sexual act in any format (video, photo, cartoon, drawing, etc...)?

This has nothing to do with morality, paranoia, ethics or values but everything to do with what the law requires us to do.

This is a very delicate subject that I am afraid to weigh in on since I personally can't say I'm right or wrong. However, some things are very clear in this situation, and points need to be made to let some of the steam off of this debate before things get out of hand. Please note that I'm not attempting to fuel any sort of fire here...

First, this is not an SL issue, this is a legal issue that involves SL. This reason alone is why I'm afraid to voice any sort of opinion; I certainly have one, but unlike many people in this thread, I'm keeping it to myself to avoid trouble.

Second, all of you people that keep saying "ageplay is bad, go get counselling, etc." need to leave this discussion alone completely. There is enough tension already over facts, no one needs to hear about your closed-mindedness. This isn't some sort of SL client feature for you to have an open forum on, it's a serious issue that needs to be restricted to objective discussion only. That bears repeating; this is a serious issue that needs to be restricted to objective discussion only.

Finally, many ageplayers are exaggerating the circumstances and blowing what LL has said way out of proportion. Unless we have some legal experts in this thread, all we know on any sort of authority is what LL has stated. I don't recall any Linden saying they were going to hire special op SWAT teams to scour the grid for ageplayers so they can prosecute and ban on sight, which is what some ageplayers seem to think.

As I understand it, this child pornography in SL issue isn't anything new, but people are going insane over it because it's riding on the heels of the age verification topic. Haven't any of you stopped to think that LL is offering an explanation as to why they are implementing age verification? Even if there is nothing legally wrong with sexually explicit ageplaying in SL (and I don't actually know, this is just hypothetical), there is no solid way for LL to prove that those engaged aren't actually minors. Perhaps the age verification debate which so many of you have been vehemently foaming at the mouth over will ensure that ageplaying is being done between two consenting adults, and therefore legal (again, I don't actually know the legality of that, but a lot of people in this thread don't either, so I'm applying a more reasonable logic on that level).

Until LL starts calling for heads, I personally don't think this is some massive controversy to worry about; rather, I believe LL is just saying what they have to say and doing what they have to do to keep some legal pressure off their backs. I do know that if people keep rioting about it, the problem will indeed escalate, and then it will be our own fault for ruining a part of the community that so far hasn't deserved to be removed whether certain people like it or not.

Not relevant to the issue of producing a distributing child pornography.

A few years ago an underage girl got in trouble for posting and sharing xxx pics of herself online.



This is an interesting.

Porn sites depicting teens tend to make it very clear (beyond their 2257 statement) that they are 'barely legal', for example. You will not see serious operaters in that industry implying that their models are underage.

Well, all of this is interesting...

SO, it seems to me that:

If an underaged *furry* is having "sex" in SL, it can not be said to be producing pornography, as the depicted avatar is not depicted as human????

Then the clear avenue for all of this is to simply: Put kitty ears on the avatar.

Done.

This forces the situation to be one where the depiction is clearly a non human one, and therefore not a child, therefore not child pornography.

I think all are forced to agree with this reasoning.

So then one is forced to agree with the next statement: "Pornography comes down to having kitty ears, or not having kitty ears".

This is an amazing statement... but if we are adhering to the legal understanding of what constitutes child pornography... then it is inescapable, and I think shows just how stupid a situation this is, and clearly shames lawmakers that failed to consider the rammifications of what they were saying.

I commented in this thread last night.....

I have just sat and watched every ones posts either for or against various differnet ethoses.

From what i can see ... and certainly is ONLY my opinion we have various different groups who have different belief and moral standpoints.

This certainly is not "thought crime" as the thought is in itself a private moment. To make that thought tangable even in the virtual sense is slightly more dubious. I am sure many people have private thoughts about many private things, certainly some we are proud of and some that we are not.

I can only speak for myself when I say that when I look at the pictures highlighted within this topic ... i do not see 2 adult av's , I see 1 adult av and 1 child av enganged in a sexual act. Even if agreed that these are 2 consenting adults having a "bit of fun" I cant help but look on that image and thing to myself does this person... and yes even though the AV is pretend the person controlling it has thier deepest personaility running through its veins.
Now the question is does the person who partakes in Age Play when they have sex with a "child" AV ... are they imagining sex with a child or sex with a child like version of their partner.

You may find that child sexuality is your thing .... or you may be arguing your right to free speech or freedom of expression but EVERY society needs rules some that are lawfull based on religious high ground ... i.e "thou shalt not kill" and "though shalt not steal" and others that are based of society moral high grounds such as smoking....drugs ... sexual devience.

If SL is to be the place that everyone is going to come and explore side to there persona which are under normal REAL life hidden then decretion is the key. As the liberties that American citizens take and to some degree hide behind i.e Freedom of speech and right to bare arms does not make it moraly or lawfull acceptable to do things that are beyond what society would deem acceptable.

One of these things is child sex. Now I accept comments that it is a fetish thought NOT a reality however I think people have commented on various occasions that they are not comfortable with the fact that people getting sexualty arroused by the sexual contact of a "pretend" child as this infers that they ar ein someway unhinged or dangerous to society.

And of course those people defending their rights under free expression and freedom of speech that they can do what the hell they like as they are two consenting adults.
Unfortunately wether of not you represent yourself through pictures .... words ...or an AV you ACTUALLY represent yourself on a moral and legal standpoint. SL is not a lawless society and it CERTAINLY isnt a utopia for any cult, sect and some man and his chicken to find refuge as like the rest of the internet there are rules to living in this day and age ....

It isnt MY rules .... and it isnt my place to impose them but you will certainly find that the ONE area that gets shut down in 20 seconds flat ... ISNT beastiality .. ISNT homosexuality.... ISNT hetrosexuality (inc BDSM etc). The world at large sees these area as adult "entertainment" but the fear is that to explore the adult/child sexual dynamic is SO reprehensible that even the thought of it is enough to be punished.

Certainly here in the UK we have our cases of sex crimes involving children, and certainly I as a parent am no longer allowed to photograph or video my childrens christmas play due to this hightened alert. I do not argue a persons "RIGHT" to think .... I do not argue a persons "RIGHT" to explore there imagination but I quote a post from elsewhere.... to accept certain behavour even in a play enviroment does blunt the blade of the REAL life child abuse elsewhere.

No It does all seem a little "too" convenient that this German reporter seems to know exactly where to go and when .... and everything seems VERY staged but I know that I dont wish to partake and I would hate to come to work and be ashamed to admit that i played second life as i could possibly loose my job based on the german documentry.

So .... like my dad used to say to me ..... "Im punishing you NOT for the crime ... but for getting caught" ...SL is a corporate 3d enviroment for everyone and you should all have your place in that world. IRL I am excluded from many things now as I smoke.... I cant enter certain areas etc .... does that mean im persecuted ... does it mean that society has shunned me and that we should have "smoke -easies" .. hell I dunno but what I will say is that the few that are finding that they need "bigger" sexual kicks may actually end up bring DOWN Linden Labs and you will only have even higher restricted places to go untill eventually you have nowhere.

I ask you ..... what you do in private IS YOUR business .... and you shouldnt be invaded even in a 3D space ... even if I feel that its wrong .... it doesnt mean I should be your Moral Leader .... after all ... you might disagree with smoking ..... or drugs ... or drink etc... I certainly dont know ..

What I DO know is that you cant hide behind the US flag and stick your tongue out .... or say "hey im from the US so it cant affect me" ... on the web EVERYTGHING we do leaves a trail ...
Please consider what you do and more importantly WHERE.... maybe SL should have restrictions after all this IS there land ..... and there rules apply not yours or mine. If they take there views off others thats there right ... which should be just as important as yours.

Maybe .....


Linden Labs should be looking at better parcel security ... Cam locks so that you CANT look into out of bounds areas..... better mature PG parcel recognition and identification.

I have read up all about the age verificiation thing.... Do I want my information listed ... actually know I dont and I can request that it isnt under DPA and LL cant stop me doing that ... but they CAN stop me playing THIER game.... they CAN stop YOU if they want to.

So play THIER game and hopefull we can all learn what is tollerence.... and try to eek out our own little part of the grid and have the security and privacy becasue allthough I dont agree with sexual age play (STRONGLY) I really cant expect people to live by MY rules I can ONLY hope that the understand WHY i find it all strange.

Anyway

Thats it for now

Good point. I wasn't referring to our shorter population indulging in t3h eb1l cyb0rs3cks.... but seeing how you've brought it up, let's run with it.

What do you think would be appropriate? A mandatory script in all sex toys that reminds the players to switch their avatar to something that looks 'adult' before strapping on their eXcite or climbing onto their SexGen beds? I don't think that one would ever fly. I don't mean to mock, but I've got a bazillion different av's (all anthropomorphic) and even I get lazy about switching between them.

I can see that in future all sex toys in SL may have to come with a mile-long disclaimer notecard waiving the creators of any liability in every country on this planet as well as reminding the purchaser which uses are forbidden depending on which country they are resident in as well as which uses/acts are forbidden in the country the servers are hosted in (I presume at some time in the near future there will be SL servers hosted outside of the USA).

As for laws that prohibit depiction, etc., etc., such things vary from country to country at this point in time. Did the perps involved break any laws of their countries of residence? If so, call up their local fuzz. Did they break the laws of the country/state where the servers are hosted? Once again, get on the phone to the local fuzz.

Not to Derail the thread any by going back to the original topic -



No offense to Robin - but she really could spell things out clearer. This is the second subject on which she misses the words that would obviously clear all confusion.

The way I interpret this statement she made is all Ageplay involving Child Like Avatars is banned.

But she didnt say that so I cant be 100% sure.

If I take it in context of the Robin Conversation that followed the Notecard - I think well yes it has to be banned becuase they already mentioned you cant say an avatar is under 18.

On the other hand - why didnt she make the obvious statement "Including Avatars that appear to be children." ?


---------------
If I missed where she was more clear about this ban - please let me know and quote it?