Ageplay.. whats allowed and whats not?

Hey. I was home sick. And it was an SL Wednesday. And there was no baseball on.

I've quietly followed this thread from the beginning and have been rather impressed at the thoughtful comments on all sides of the issue. I've also had my mind changed and realized in the process how seldom that happens

My (former? maybe?) aversion to child avatars probably comes from the situations and climate mentioned in earlier posts about the hysteria in the real world. I've seen two lives ruined by false accusations of improper contact with children. It's one of the few crimes where a finding of innocence doesn't mean diddly; doubt is planted and that's enough to destroy someone's future. So my neighborhood is full of kids I actively avoid unless their parents are present. Frankly it saddens me when I think about it.

All that's really an aside to what I think of child avs in SL and as I said, that's changed. Mari's been an outstanding spokestot for the the child av community (school? litter?) here. I'm going to consciously try to remember my own fears of the pointing finger before I do any pointing of my own in SL.

Yeah then we'll need virtual police to drag you in for questioning and a virtual Daily Mail to tell people how justified you were and a virtual Child Protection Unit to decide whether you should be prosecuted by a virtual court and if that doesn't succeed you could be dragged to a virtual European Court of Human Rights by a virtual parent who can sniff oodles of virtual compensation as they tell the virtual BBC reporter that Johnny is a good little virtual boy and... *draws breath*

Nah. It could never happen.

Yer welcome! Only 7,256,022 avatars to go!

I find a lot of child avvies have similar justifications to mine. Many also just find it simply easier to to kid stuff as an in-world kid, too.



Oddly enough, I do carry a notecard. It became my first op ed for the M2 as well. Most will gladly tell you if you ask them, I s'pect.



And from what you said, it's clear you have good reason to be wary of it, too.



It is. I note that for most of us playing kids, too, there tends to be an informal network amongst us. A "trust web" of sorts, as most of us don't want to associate with the sexual ageplayer types. Sadly, it is those folks that have tarred all of us. :-/



7,256,021!

I agree, too, that this has been an outstanding thread ont he topic, well beyond the usual.



Glad I could help, really!

I wonder what we would be called? If a groups of geese is a gaggle, and a group of crows is a murder - then would a group of kids be ... what?

Mari

Precisely. It's like any other form of rape or sexual assault - anyone accused of it may aswell hang themselves even if found not guilty, because their lives are over. Which is why I fully support proposals in the UK to prosecute those who maliciously make false accusations, regardless of whether or not it will discourage genuine victims to come forward.

Seconded!

I'm Glad Bod and Porky have reexamined thier take on Child Avies. SL would be a Much better place if people Would just open thier minds like these two, They might find SL, and the world in general to be a far less intimidating place if they did.


You are quite right Conan, The merits of the case, or an aquittal are meaningless, All that Has been necesary in past has been the accusation, But look now at this Thread and those detractors of people trying to enjoy thier second childhood. Aren't they visiting the self same attitudes upon the child Avies? Aren't they convicting on 100% emotion, and 0% fact? Placing bans, and restrictions and sanctions on perfectly innocent people because of what someone MIGHT be doing? Punishing hundreds, or thousands of Innocent, to get at maybe One guilty? people who see child Avies may fear that fate for themselves but that does NOT justify avoiding it by Visiting that fate upon Others.

Angel.

You do realize that statistically the number of women and children who are raped but who wont/cant report it VASTLY exceeds the number of people who are falsely accused.

While I understand the fear of those who dont want to be falsely accused, any system where victims are discouraged from reporting the crime is a problem that should be handled carefully.

Yep....." prosecute those who maliciously make false accusations" was fine by me, "regardless of whether or not it will discourage genuine victims to come forward", you lost me on that part.

Maybe everyone can give me some feedback.

Would it make sense to have maybe an in-world question and answer with a panel of kid avvies and maybe their in-world parents? It wouldn't - couldn't - answer every question, but maybe it would help in some way both with what is allowed of us kid avvies, as well as showing a bit more of what we are.

Whatcha think? Crazy or good?

Mari

I like the idea Mari and would help anyway I could.... as far as helping? welps, couldnt hurt

It's a good idea, but the difficulty is that the "problem" child avatars are not the ones who would be involved in such a panel.

Other difficulty: The ones who need the educating most are likely the ones who would use it the least. But anything that helps in the cause of live-and-let-live and mutual compassion on SL can't hurt and might help. I'd say, go for it, and see if it does any good..

QUOTE=Har Fairweather]Other difficulty: The ones who need the educating most are likely the ones who would use it the least. But anything that helps in the cause of live-and-let-live and mutual compassion on SL can't hurt and might help. I'd say, go for it, and see if it does any good..[/QUOTE]

Therein lies the big two problems, yes.\

The thing is, I don't know any of the "problem" child avvies. They don't really mix with the main body of kid avatars and, when they do end up in our areas, they are often banned immediately. Nevermind that any who did "come out" as a sexual ageplayer to be at such a meeting would be liable for immediate bannination without recourse for stating they were. Hardly an incentive to be there, ya know?

Likewise, the folks who would be most likely to attend would be most likely to be sympathetic to the issue at hand. It's an issue a lot of activism in the real world has: you attract like.

Hmn... still seems like it might be worth it as an educational seminar, even to a somewhat sympathetic audience -- but I wonder if there's a better way? Any thoughts?

Mari

Therein lies the big two problems, yes.\

The thing is, I don't know any of the "problem" child avvies. They don't really mix with the main body of kid avatars and, when they do end up in our areas, they are often banned immediately. Nevermind that any who did "come out" as a sexual ageplayer to be at such a meeting would be liable for immediate bannination without recourse for stating they were. Hardly an incentive to be there, ya know?

Likewise, the folks who would be most likely to attend would be most likely to be sympathetic to the issue at hand. It's an issue a lot of activism in the real world has: you attract like.

Hmn... still seems like it might be worth it as an educational seminar, even to a somewhat sympathetic audience -- but I wonder if there's a better way? Any thoughts?

Mari[/QUOTE]

Msybe an outtreach effort? Send personalized IMs or notecards to some of the anti-child people who seem halfway rational and offer to meet with them in a neutral setting of their own choice and "seminar" with them and any friends they want to bring along? Or maybe offer them tours of innocent-child sites with an emphasis on whatever you do to keep out the pedo-pals? Probably few would accept, but some might, and then spread the word, maybe, and even the refusers would be left with something to think about.

My apprehension is that a general "broadcast" approach or a "public group" setting might simply draw a knee-jerk "group" response. Even that might help a little, since you could say your say, but might not be as productive as you like.

Another point: Some of the worst antis are responding out of painful personal experience. Some are themselves former victims of child abuse and the subject understandably makes them crazy. Others are women who have children, and are terribly afraid. Others have seen terrible things happen in their towns, sometimes even their own neighborhoods. These people need to be approached with sympathy and compassion.

Some, I suspect, are overcompensating against dark child-abusing urges in themselves and reason will not touch them - but an open, rational setting where they cannot attack an enemy and have to face themselves might at least lead them to lay off the worst of their militancy and deal with their inner demons privately.

The thing is, a situation where one side is open, peaceful and rational and the other is the opposite is dramatically different from a situation where both sides are drawing the wagons in a circle and taking shots at each other. Neutral observers can draw their own conclusions in the first case; they have too little to go on in the second case.

You cannot control what others will do, but you can control what you do - and your instinct to communicate looks right.

Hope these thoughts help.

Like I said, a man who is accused may as well be dead - his life is over. A severe penalty is necessary, because to falsely accuse someone is a truly evil thing to do and makes the accuser almost (note I say almost) as bad as a rapist. They destroy innocent peoples marraiges, their careers, their social standing, their relationships with friends, relatives and neighbours. A man falsely accused of rape remains a social pariah forever. He has literally nothing left. It is the women who make false accusations that will be to blame if penalties discourage genuine accusations.

I don't doubt for one moment that being raped is an extemely traumatic and shattering experience too.

Just to put things in perspective, I have three female friends who have been raped - two of them by their own fathers. Two of these women got over it, after many years of counselling and damaged relationships. It was damn hard for them for years afterwards, but they pulled through eventually. Third suffers depression and mild aggorophobia, but is getting better and will eventually lead a normal life.

Being a victim of rape is certainly several orders of magnitude worse than being the victim of a false accusation, there's no question of that - however the actual practical long term consequences can in many cases be almost as severe in terms of the long term effect on, as mentionned, careers, marraiges etc etc - and it is these devastating long term effects that make rape the terrible inhuman crime it is, not the actual violence perpetrated at the time as such.

A rape victim (of either gender) can, eventually, learn to pull themselves through and rebuild their lives. A person falsely accused does not have this option - it will destroy them utterly and leave them no hope of returning to the way things were before.

That aside, people who make false claims are also the ones at fault for discouraging genuine victims coming forward though. This is an argument put forward by many rape counselling charities, but the argument just doesn't hold water. These are the same charities that complain that only 50% of rape cases end in a conviction. To them that statistic says that juries are prejudiced against victims. To me that says there is something terribly wrong with a legal system that allows so many clearly false cases to end up in court in the first place. There are many well-documented cases of women giving consent, regretting it the morning after and crying "rape!" to the police. It is these frivilous claims that do a terrible injustice to genuine rape victims by casting suspiscion on those whose claims have a more just right to be heard in court. That's the theory anyway.

I do not believe for one moment that these measures would discourage genuine victims from coming forward though. Certainly the three women I mentionned earlier have all agreed with me that serious penalties should be levied against false accusers. Severe penalties for making false claims would hopefully reduce the incidence of such claims, and thus create an environment where accusations of serious sexual offences could be considered without automatically being seen as suspiscious. But there needs to be balance. At the moment, the law in the UK seems to be entirely blind to the intense long term suffering that false accusations cause. I can honestly say that if I met a guy who I discovered had been accused of rape, and subsequently acquitted, to my shame even I would not be able to help being slightly suspiscious of him. That kind of mud sticks for life and can never be washed off.

I can relate to what you are saying. A colleague of mine was accused of improper conduct with a student that was essentially statutory rape. He is a friendly, flirty type by nature, but knew where the line (or fence) was. From the moment he was accused his career was finished. The case went to trial and the girl admitted on the stand that she was lying, for several reasons. Needless to say he could never work in a Public School again.It worked out for him in the end as the girl's family was well off, so he won a sizeable judgement from them and the school district. he was a music teacher, and the loss of employment plus the money gave him the incentive to persue performing on a full time basis and he has done quite well. So I do agree there is a presumption of guilt for men a lot of times. Just as I think men sometimes get the short end in Family Court (Dodges Feminist Bullets). That being said too many women (and men even) are victimized and don't come foreward, and that is situatio that needs to change.

PS I like how you edited your sig.......were you "asked' to do that , or are you just being a good citizen?

No, I changed it before I was asked.

Fear of punishment was my main motivation, rather than feelings of social obligation - as is the case most of the time when people 'voluntarily' do the right thing.

"Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... "

Yes fear of punishment is a great motivator. My Dad was a master at it. (We'll not for me so much, as my brothers were blamed for anything I did..... )

"Our chief weapon is suprise....suprise and fear! Our two chief weapons are suprise and fear....and a fanatical devotion to the pope!! Our three chief weapons are.........WE HAVE MANY WEAPONS!!"

My grandfather was king of it. But he never needed to raise his voice or say anything aggressively, he used to adopt a tone that said "I'm very disappointed in you, you can tell how disappointed I am from my gentle and quiet tone."

The man was a wizard at it. I say was, he's still alive he just doesn't have anyone to tell off anymore.

Oh how I hated that... it left no way to react as young girl...

Morwen.

Exactly. If a parent shouts at a child, they just throw a tantrum. When I have children I intend to adopt the gentle "I'm disappointed" approach. I also intend to be the father from Mary Poppins, and only really see my children at their weekly inspection on Sunday mornings.

I didn't want to quote the entire Python Sketch as it refernced "Ruthless Efficiency" a term that may be inappropriate in an SL discussion.

Not a bad idea, really. Of course, I suspect that if we showed off our usual haunts, someone would accues us of "sanitizing" them before people showed up, or assume we aren't showing the "real" places. Still might be worth it.

'course, with the 4th birthday, we've got a couple coolkid builds which I think do a pretty good job of explaining us kids too. But how to get people to actually go there?



Very true. I guess it comes down to figuring out what will get the most out of the time spent, ya know? Bang for your buck, an all dat.



True and true - and I can deeply sympathize with the former group. I know when I first heard abotu a friend of mine playin' a kid in here, before I had grown down, I was apprehensive as well, and much of it stemmed form my own issues. It was before I realized what I could do here, really, as far as healing old wounds an stuff.



They do indeed!

It's been one of the delights of this thread. So often, a thread with the word "ageplay" in the title is gonna "not end well." This one has proven otherwise, an for dat I'm glad.

(An thankoo, Strife too, for not closing dis in the first moment! I'm sure you were tempted!)

As my mommy has said, "before you down a child avie in sl, maybe you ought to meet my lil peanut, my son the angel, and my peaches..i bet they'd change anyones mind ..through the eyes of a child avatar.."

I hink so much of change comes from meetin' us kids, an goin past the fears (and fearmongering) an seein for yourselves what we're all about in a mutually-resectful fashion. The trick is makin dat happen inna world with so many people, all coming form different places, and where many might not be too receptive.

Mari

I'm going to make a child alt now. This thread has inspired me.

Anyone for a game of jump-rope?

I think it would be ok to discuss (in the current version feedback forum) the efficiency of the code that keeps the default av, Ruth, from being used.

"Cardinal Fang! Fetch...THE COMFY CHAIR!"

It is relevant and as long as it stays on topic it's relatively safe. Eventually the sands of time will bury it.